Legion - Subtlety discussion

[elfporn]

I don't have a problem with those legendaries, I just wouldn't want those effects to become baseline. Having passive cleave that you can't disable is pretty stupid when you're trying to PvP. It's pretty hard to make precision tactical strikes when you break everything out of CC merely by existing.

In general there is way too much passive cleave in the game. Especially stuff like Moonkin's Sunfire cleaving to nearby targets. It's just a pain in the ass.

You're right about it being uncontrollable, that tidbit is undesirable for sure, but the concepts mesh well enough for pve play that i would be happy with those options as talents

[shoegazing]

You're right about it being uncontrollable, that tidbit is undesirable for sure, but the concepts mesh well enough for pve play that i would be happy with those options as talents

Those would be fine with me as optional talents.

[Valentyn]

You're right about it being uncontrollable, that tidbit is undesirable for sure, but the concepts mesh well enough for pve play that i would be happy with those options as talents

Those would be fine with me as optional talents.

These would both make great talents. Replace Weapon Master with Insignia of Ravenholdt, and Master of Shadows with Dreadlord's Deceit.

MoS can move to where Alacrity is.

That gives us the options of having AoE to talent into, with Marked for Death and Death From Above as nice alternatives for other situations.

[Deleted]

These would both make great talents. Replace Weapon Master with Insignia of Ravenholdt, and Master of Shadows with Dreadlord's Deceit.

MoS can move to where Alacrity is.

That gives us the options of having AoE to talent into, with Marked for Death and Death From Above as nice alternatives for other situations.

We can hope, but i doubt at this stage that's going to happen.

You got me thinking about weaponmaster today though, so decided to give it a chance and do some testing with it, heres what i found.

On a 10min dummy parse it is proccing at the tooltip value of ~6% and it does proc from nightblade and it resulted in around 4.5-5% of my overall dps.

Now heres what got me thinking, if you are familiar with the Legendery staff Dragonwrath, Taregosa's Rest (i have it on my shadow priest) you will see weaponmaster is exactly the same proc, well nearly. Dragonwrath had slightly higher proc chance 8% and under the hood it had some shennanigans going on to make it good for all casters. Meaning for dot specs 8% was too low so it had a much higher proc chance for dots ~14-15% IIRC.

Now we are in the same boat as i was in cata on my priest, half my damage being direct (ss,bs,evis) and half from dots(nightblade), because nightblade is such a significant proportion of our damage, i have put in a suggestioin that weaponmaster should follow the same formula as dragonwrath, which will make the talent much more viable for us without it being too overpowered (to high a proc chance for direct damage will result in double finality dfa's too often and just one shot ppl). This also has the side effect of increasing our AoE damage from multi dotting, sure it doesn't totally solve the lack of AoE overall, but will go towards improving it in a manner that is far more likely to happen i.e it buffs the way they want us to do AoE (multi-dotting) so they are more likely to listen.

Thoughts everyone?

Edit: Just for comparison, Master of Subtlety works out at 9% overall damage if you just count the direct damage portions even without including auto attacks or nightblade ticks that land during the 6s window, so its significantly higher. I didn't bother with gloomblade as my maths Kung Fu is not that strong to start fucking around with armour differences with backstab

[elfporn]

These would both make great talents. Replace Weapon Master with Insignia of Ravenholdt, and Master of Shadows with Dreadlord's Deceit.

MoS can move to where Alacrity is.

That gives us the options of having AoE to talent into, with Marked for Death and Death From Above as nice alternatives for other situations.

i would rather see most of the useless lv 75 talent tier go away or get shifted to pvp talents somewhere.

I'm still holding out hope for alacrity, i keep seeing it and thinking BLOODLUST.

Anyone able to run some testing with a talent setup made to pump out finishers asap - see how long it takes to stack?(again) and if weaponmaster procs apply a stack.

[kalaratic]

Now we are in the same boat as i was in cata on my priest, half my damage being direct (ss,bs,evis) and half from dots(nightblade), because nightblade is such a significant proportion of our damage, i have put in a suggestioin that weaponmaster should follow the same formula as dragonwrath, which will make the talent much more viable for us without it being too overpowered (to high a proc chance for direct damage will result in double finality dfa's too often and just one shot ppl). This also has the side effect of increasing our AoE damage from multi dotting, sure it doesn't totally solve the lack of AoE overall, but will go towards improving it in a manner that is far more likely to happen i.e it buffs the way they want us to do AoE (multi-dotting) so they are more likely to listen.

Thoughts everyone?

personally i just want weaponmaster gone from the game or completely reworked. it's pretty lazy design to take away multistrike from the game but then come around and give it to us as a talent

[Deleted]

personally i just want weaponmaster gone from the game or completely reworked. it's pretty lazy design to take away multistrike from the game but then come around and give it to us as a talent

make it 15% to proc another attack.
this should be hilarious in pvp. 1 DFA = 1 shot anyone

- - - Updated - - -

by the way why isn't anyone crying out loud at how overpowered these spells are when combined? (Paladins)
http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...etribution/MfM
In essence if a paladin goes down to 20% hp thanks to the Divine INtervention talents and pushes Equality...he will deal 40% of his total health in damage around him to up to 4 enemies. That is basically half the health of the average player.

So yes, make weaponmaster 25% chance to proc double attacks if we consider the ridiculousness of these paladin talents.

[kalaratic]

So yes, make weaponmaster 25% chance to proc double attacks if we consider the ridiculousness of these paladin talents.

to be fair i think equality is a whole other beast. it's tom chilton's baby so u know it won't be gone from the game so it will prob be capped for pvp. but ya weaponmaster dfa's are a scary thing, just doubt anyone would want to trade MoS or gloomblade for such a low chance as it is now. even at 15% seems kinda unreliable when the only thing u really want it to proc on are finality dfa's or evis

[elfporn]

to be fair i think equality is a whole other beast. it's tom chilton's baby so u know it won't be gone from the game so it will prob be capped for pvp. but ya weaponmaster dfa's are a scary thing, just doubt anyone would want to trade MoS or gloomblade for such a low chance as it is now. even at 15% seems kinda unreliable when the only thing u really want it to proc on are finality dfa's or evis

yep, that element of luck is shit when you can have Master of Sub for reliability

[Deleted]

to be fair i think equality is a whole other beast. it's tom chilton's baby so u know it won't be gone from the game so it will prob be capped for pvp. but ya weaponmaster dfa's are a scary thing, just doubt anyone would want to trade MoS or gloomblade for such a low chance as it is now. even at 15% seems kinda unreliable when the only thing u really want it to proc on are finality dfa's or evis

perfect, say no more. Restrict the application of weaponmaster to specific spells. Let us say..finishers!

Your offensive finishers have a 25% chance to be cast twice, if so happens the cost is increased by 50% energy.
Bam, pool some energy and cast this mother of godliness. i would pick it up over mosh.

there, simple way of making the talent way more reliable and interesting. perhaps not very much of a PvE flavour for a PvET tree.

perhaps. In addition, remaining finisher's effectiveness have a 25% chance to increase their effectivenesss by 100% and at the cost of 50% increased energy. Let us say someone picks up enveloping shadows, it will give 2 combos every 3 secs instead of 1. leads to more finishers, more chance to proc. more shadow dances -> more shadow novas for aoe.

[Deleted]

to be fair i think equality is a whole other beast. it's tom chilton's baby so u know it won't be gone from the game so it will prob be capped for pvp. but ya weaponmaster dfa's are a scary thing, just doubt anyone would want to trade MoS or gloomblade for such a low chance as it is now. even at 15% seems kinda unreliable when the only thing u really want it to proc on are finality dfa's or evis

15% at current damage levels would be OP, as you could expect a proc every 7th DFA so with a 20s cooldown you could take 2.5mins to get a proc, but if it landed it would 1shot whatever you hit due to the ease of setup with finality. It is the exact same reason that elemental was nerfed after mists, as their mastery made it so that eventually your eleblast>lava burst would crit and proc elemental overload and one shot the target, it just took a matter of time and it would happen, 100% unhealable.

Anyways our damage will be nerfed in pvp for sure but this was why i was advocating the 15% proc purely for DoT damage to keep it sensible and competitive, i know people dont like the talent itself, but i'm now working with the principle that talents will probably not change now were in beta, so we can only piss with the cock we have already got!!!

[Deleted]

snip

the thing is, equality is so overpowered that we will see (am I am almost 100% sure) 2 rets bond to life in arenas, or RBG where there are 2 or 3 rets. Particularly RBGs...it is so damn dangerous.

When will blizz learn that AoE should do LOW to VERY LOW dmg. and Single targets spells are the ones that should do medium to high dmg?
Of course there are exceptions...affliction warlocks...dot dot dot everyone but that is another thing.

Plus, is equality really a true PvE talent? It has pvp all written over it. they remove 'kill shot' and give them this. Come on, Retardins aren't suppose to tank. Give this spell to retartankadins.
It makes a lot more sense and makes the game more challenging. we want to kill the adds faster? alright let the tank lose health on purpose and make him use that ability. It justifies its high dmg output. YOu can even lower the cd if you wish so it can be clicked more times.
This or lower down to 25% dmg.

in any case this relates to the same issue as the talent tree from rogues. Poorly thought design ideas: weaponmaster. Truth be told, bad ideas happen. Not recognizing one like this is silly design. Going forward with it...we come up to ridiculousness. (equality, weaponmaster not so much). It is like designing a 5 storey building without room for an elevator.

[Deleted]

the thing is, equality is so overpowered that we will see (am I am almost 100% sure) 2 rets bond to life in arenas, or RBG where there are 2 or 3 rets. Particularly RBGs...it is so damn dangerous.

When will blizz learn that AoE should do LOW to VERY LOW dmg. and Single targets spells are the ones that should do medium to high dmg?
Of course there are exceptions...affliction warlocks...dot dot dot everyone but that is another thing.

Plus, is equality really a true PvE talent? It has pvp all written over it. Come on, Retardins aren't suppose to tank. Give this spell to retartankadins.
It makes a lot more sense and makes the game more challenging. we want to kill the adds faster? alright let the tank lose health on purpose and make him use that ability. It justifies its high dmg output. YOu can even lower the cd.

I'm not even commenting on equality as i am confident it will be capped in pvp, so much so it will end up being a novelty 3min cooldown, that only retards below 1800 take because their opponents don't understand how to play around it, so its nothing to worry about. Divine Purpose will be the goto talent on that tier 100%

EDIT: Just to confirm i don't think everyone below 1800 is a retard It's just that the average rating of players who do not understand how to effectively counter certain mechanics/classes generally falls below that threshold. See the majority of those players complaining about frost mage damage but not cc for reference.

[Deleted]

post#2933

I do disagree, high rated players will go for equality. Well timed it can turn the tables effortlessly and quickly. It is situational and not so passive as divine purpose. We must not forget that equality alone is worthless but in teamplay it is very scary, particularly as the number of teammates increase.
Im trying to explain the best I can but it seems I am not inspired today. Look at it this way, when someone is low, we vanish, paladins bubble, warriors shield wall, mages iceblock, monks cocoon pretty much defensive rather than offensive.

Speccing equality is the same as saying: Whoever kills me must be above 50% hp or he goes down before I go down. It is an advanced form of 'kill shot'. Kill shot used to be a form of saying "WHover kills me must be above 20% hp".
Now imagine that said retardin has a teammate. What does this mean? We have to have way over than 50% hp remaining, we must have 70% or so, otherwise we just get "Equalitied" and then hit by his teammate. See the problem mate?

Now try adding a healer behind the retardin. Retardin casts this spell and just sits in bubble afterwards getting healing while the tables have been drastically turned.

And what if two retardings with equality meet each other? have we thought of that? They haven't. "Blizzard think it did, but didn't". (pseudo using their own words)

Look at it, look.
the warrior is TANK specced, it has roughly 60% HP and is 1 shot. 1min mark
one word: ABSURD.
Oh and oh...what if it crits?? can it critical strike? if so 1 shot for real.gg.


A little rant of mine:
blizz always says they are interested in balancing game. Sure thing, all these years they had spells like execute etc which seemed unfair. Actually i tseemed fair for warrior because they were slow, bulky and couldnt reach the enemy target so well. Once they did they could execute at melee range.
Then they gave kill shot to hunters usable at 35% HP. Ranged spell. anyway, glad they removed these kind of stuff for legion.
basically they row to the right direction then backwards...

[Deleted]

snip

Oh i understand fully mate, and you are right that would be scary in a world where the 50% hp cap remains. But thats my point, the hp cap will be nerfed imo, so much so that the damage will not warrant the 3min cooldown, aside from the fact that it still remains easy to play around.

It's clearly one of those talents that's hilariously op or far too circumstantial and useless so once they tune the numbers i am confident it will be the latter.

Look at shadowy duel, looks amazing on paper and in certain situations, but those situations do not occur regularly enough to actually make the talent worth taking over sustained damage/burst.

[Deleted]

Oh i understand fully mate, and you are right that would be scary in a world where the 50% hp cap remains. But thats my point, the hp capped will be nerfed imo, so much so that the damage will not warrant the 3min cooldown, aside from the fact that it still remains easy to play around.

It's clearly one of those talents that's hilariously op or far too circumstantial and useless and once they tune the numbers i am confident it will be the latter.

Look at shadowy duel, sounds amazing on paper and in certain situations but those situations do not occur regularly enough to actually make the talent worth taking over sustained damage/burst.

Shadowy Duel is interesting now that you mention it. Your team mates can lower the enemy down while we, the rogues, save some of our dmg for shadow duel. But this talent has a backfire to it. It costs energy. And because of that we must save some energy affecting our dmg output before the target is low. Tremendous potential for RBGs and 3v3. Thiefs bargain (which seems the way to go) is more of a solo talent that actively works as a 'passive'.
This example that you have given is more situational. Only time will tell how we will use shadowy duel. My bets are 3v3 and RBGs.

And yes, I hope they nerf the dmg big time and give it a lower cooldown. make the dmg more "spread" for Equality. Bu tthe thing is, the only downside is that you can only use when low health. If they lower the dmg and make the cooldown lower it is the same as saying that they expect retardins to be low hp many times. Plus if the dmg output is low it is worth shit having this talent.
Therefore the conclusion is inevitable. the talent must be removed or seriously rethought.

By the way if they give it a cap as suggested it still is nonesense. It is agaisnt their design ideas. They removed killshots as we have seen (and i do agree). BUt then if, for instance, Equality is to damage, let us say, 20% hp of all nearby enemies, it is the same as an AoE execute. I keep thinking it and all my thoughts end in the same place...bad design, goes against their overall design idea.

Why note make it different? THe opposite? isntead of having the paladin himself as reference, why not the enemies health? We us say, Casting equality removes 30% of the targets current health( not total). Might aswell change the name to, "Unfair advantage". It does mot dmg when target full hp, and lower dmg as the target current hp gets lower. if target100% he get sto 70%. if target 40% he gets down to 28%.

[Deleted]

Shadowy Duel is interesting now that you mention it. Your team mates can lower the enemy down while we, the rogues, save some of our dmg for shadow duel. But this talent has a backfire to it. It costs energy. And because of that we must save some energy affecting our dmg output before the target is low. Tremendous potential for RBGs and 3v3. Thiefs bargain (which seems the way to go) is more of a solo talent that actively works as a 'passive'.
This example that you have given is more situational. Only time will tell how we will use shadowy duel. My bets are 3v3 and RBGs.

And yes, I hope they nerf the dmg big time and give it a lower cooldown. make the dmg more "spread" for Equality. Bu tthe thing is, the only downside is that you can only use when low health. If they lower the dmg and make the cooldown lower it is the same as saying that they expect retardins to be low hp many times. Plus if the dmg output is low it is worth shit having this talent.
Therefore the conclusion is inevitable. the talent must be removed or seriously rethought.

I think shadowy duel will be more powerful when used purely for the CC aspect of it, more like a 6s smoke bomb on the healer allowing your partners to finish of the kill target. The enemy would have to be super low to guarantee the kill as you said with the energy cost and you would probably have to take Master of Shadows for the energy refund to allow any sort of burst to happen during duel.

Thiefs Bargin is amazing for BGs, zipping about and doing really hard openers/dances into big DFA's and vanishing the fuck out of their is really fun, it is defo the goto talent for BGs and i've been having a lot of fun with it. You do sacrifice soooo much survivability however, if you get caught in a stun you are dead. I can see it working in arena, but only in comps that allow you to sit in stealth after bursting, without having to peel for your team mates. Which is putting a lot of pressure on your healer and other dps plus any team with bleeds just fucks you over since they cannot be dispelled/cloaked.

PA is now fixed, and i think it will end up being the preferred arena talent as it allows you 27.5% more HP over TB meaning that paired with elusiveness you are massively more tanky and can spend more time out of stealth contributing to peeling/sustained/cc. What it also means is that you can forget about SoD when you want to burst due to the automatic application so you don't lose that first global of your dance. This coupled with premed and nightstalker means you can build a 6cp DFA in one dance and because PA extends your dance by 3s the DFA lands while still benefiting from the nightstalker and MoS bonus damage resulting in very decent burst.

Either talent can work, but i just don't see us being able to sit around in stealth that long without falling behind with Thiefs bargin in 3s, so think PA is the way to go. One thing is for certain they are far less circumstantial and more reliable than Shadowy Duel.

[Deleted]

snip.

yeah pretty much that! well summarized

[Valentyn]

Any word on if they fixed the Shadow Dance stance bar issue?

[Deleted]

Any word on if they fixed the Shadow Dance stance bar issue?

Not so far, servers seem to be down atm, so could be a new build incoming or hotfixes, so fingers crossed they acquiesce!!