Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Tellof]

because they changed it for literally no reason, they created a problem with no upsides, they made the class a 100% worse for no reason, and the most hilarious part is, is that they actually went out of their way to do it, shadow dance was already swapping bars for 8 years and they literally spent money, work ours and manpower on making something flat out worse. that's the problem

Again, I get it. But in my opinion the change does not make the spec "100% worse", which is not a quantitative measure in the first place so it's ridiculous to even say that. It's been pretty well documented that the opinion of the change is dumb, but my proposed solution I gave (trying to help, believe it or not) was my own opinion of how to mitigate the bad change and everyone jumped down my throat about it. You're trying to put facts into an opinion argument when the issues are related but not tightly coupled like you keep insisting.

The way I have my UI configured means that I literally have 1 extra button to press, and I don't find it to be uncomfortable. I told the thread how to do it in hopes they'd get some more comfort, but people seemed more interested in flaming me than anything else. Is everyone afraid that if someone on the thread isn't freaking out that Blizzard might see it and say "SEE?! We don't need to change it!" because if that's the case then you'd be contradicting the widely stated belief that they aren't listening to you, and you wouldn't have any control of the new decision any more than you did the one you're upset about. Shit happens man.

[Deleted]

When I see someone saying backstab and shadow strike are completely the same spell, I truly have seen it all. I guess if you played warrior mortal strike and execute would be the same spell, as well, right?

[Tellof]

tellof what were you expecting coming into this thread trying to justify something isn't a problem when you don't even fully understand how shadow dance works in legion. if you don't have the problem of adjusting like 8 years of muscle memory could you not see that it's a serious shift for those who do? like of course people are going to jump on you

Have you considered that since I've been using non-paging bars since before the Legion Beta/PTR I didn't see the problem everyone was facing in the first place? After it was explained to me I saw where they were coming from, and I pointed out my method so that some people might give it a try. More people read this forum than post, maybe someone other than the 4 people yelling at me might think it's helpful. It's a forum, not an echo chamber where everyone needs to agree all the time.

[ymirsson]

The way I have my UI configured means that I literally have 1 extra button to press, and I don't find it to be uncomfortable. I told the thread how to do it in hopes they'd get some more comfort, but people seemed more interested in flaming me than anything else.

"People" don't want a half assed solution, they would prefer to have the current incarnation of Shadow Dance back and are understandably upset about the unnecessary change.
And other "people" proposing to just deal with it are not exactly helping in that regard. It is fine to not have a problem with this change, but why should there NOT be a vocal dissent if the issue is not only not positive for the spec but first and foremost completely useless and unecessary?

[Critical92]

When I see someone saying backstab and shadow strike are completely the same spell, I truly have seen it all. I guess if you played warrior mortal strike and execute would be the same spell, as well, right?

They are nearly the same. You should use one when you can't or can use the other.
Backstab costs 35 energy, rewards 1 CP and Shadowstrike costs 40 energy baseline, rewards 1 CP baseline and is only useable while stealthed or shd are active
Conclusion: They do the same but one is a modified version of the other and i think you can guess which.
All in all they do the same, direct physical damage and cps

[Deleted]

Have you considered that since I've been using non-paging bars since before the Legion Beta/PTR I didn't see the problem everyone was facing in the first place? After it was explained to me I saw where they were coming from, and I pointed out my method so that some people might give it a try. More people read this forum than post, maybe someone other than the 4 people yelling at me might think it's helpful. It's a forum, not an echo chamber where everyone needs to agree all the time.

Go educate yourself on Legion rogue, then you can come back and disagree with someone here. Until then you are just posting random shit. And since you are in the minority who doesnt use Stealth bar, Im afraid you will never be able to discuss that part of the issue. Freedom of speech has its limitations, even on internet forums. Its like Id just go to camera distance reduction topic and tell people to adjust because I never needed that big distance. My opinion is useless for them. Im not helping anyone. Its a shame that majority of posts against this issue are people like you.

Also there is already solution to this, even bulletproof, but you know, some people actually care about the future of the spec, its accessibility and population.

[panzaghor]

a: you still dont get the problem
b: no it's not that shadow dance isnt a big dps cooldown, it's the uncomfortableness and senslessness to having to use 2 different binds for the exact same thing
c: if you cant backstab on velhari you're doing something wrong, i never had a problem with it.

i actually like most of the new sub, i like the frequent shadow dances, i like shadowstrike, i like SoD way more than i liked slice and dice, but it just doesnt feel good to play with no stealth bar on dance, it doesnt sound like a big deal, but it is, it just doesnt flow well, it's uncomfortable and awkward, ive been a sub main since vanilla and now im seriously contemplating rolling assa because it's just way more fun now.

I've been playing sub since Wotlk and i think it sucks too but i'm not going to play mut because of this

[shaunika123]

When I see someone saying backstab and shadow strike are completely the same spell, I truly have seen it all. I guess if you played warrior mortal strike and execute would be the same spell, as well, right?

tell me one instance
ONE
where you'd backstab instead of shadowstrike
i didnt think so

all i said they're functionally the same, which is true, if you think they're not something's very wrong

it's not mortal strike vs execute

it's shred vs shred from stealth

or you know backstab vs ambush?

Again, I get it. But in my opinion the change does not make the spec "100% worse", which is not a quantitative measure in the first place so it's ridiculous to even say that. It's been pretty well documented that the opinion of the change is dumb, but my proposed solution I gave (trying to help, believe it or not) was my own opinion of how to mitigate the bad change and everyone jumped down my throat about it. You're trying to put facts into an opinion argument when the issues are related but not tightly coupled like you keep insisting.

.

i ment 100% worse in the sense that there's no upside to it so 100% of the change is negative, why would you put in a change with zero upsides? unless they're deliberately trying to "nerf" the quality of life of a sub rogue

[defury]

I dont get the outrage aswell.
Many of you probably dont know this. If you have Ambush and Backstab on the same key then, if you activate Shadowdance and then start to spam ambush key, you might actualy use backstab instead. This was caused by server lag, due to whole bar switching.
I agree that sub feels bad right now, but not because of stance bar...
It feels bad because Shadow dance isnt big d*ck DPS cooldown. Your whole guild knew when you pressed that shadowdance, because you kicked asses. And you felt great too, or at least I did. Preparing to get as juicy Shadow dances as possible was awesome and then the moment came and you was hitting like truck with ambush.
PTR version just feels bad because Shadowdance is just too common. You still need to prepare for it and if you do, it just doesnt feel that rewarding.
Other reason is, that nightblade (new rupture) is too short. I feel more like "affliction rogue", because all I do is refresh nightblade. On the other hand the change that you dont need to be behind target for backstab is great. It was reason why I hated Velhari. In third phase you just had to use hemo, because you had to be stacked with the rest of the raid in front of her.

Saying that sometimes your game lags and you accidentally get maybe 1 backstab off (i still refuse to believe this happens more than once a month at most) is extremely short sighted and plainly stupid. That's like saying interupts should blanket silence because sometimes lag makes you miss one.

[Xeh.-]

So, in current build. Which macros are you guys using for Sub. I am completely lost.

[shaunika123]

So, in current build. Which macros are you guys using for Sub. I am completely lost.

i have this macro that lets me swap to assasination :P

[Deleted]

They are nearly the same. You should use one when you can't or can use the other.
Backstab costs 35 energy, rewards 1 CP and Shadowstrike costs 40 energy baseline, rewards 1 CP baseline and is only useable while stealthed or shd are active
Conclusion: They do the same but one is a modified version of the other and i think you can guess which.
All in all they do the same, direct physical damage and cps

So all spells that do damage are basically the same?

Because backstab is a filler spell that hits harder from behind the target, while shadowstrike is a teleporting, hard hitting, main rotation spell that is unlocked in certain stances. They are nothing alike.

[kalaratic]

So, in current build. Which macros are you guys using for Sub. I am completely lost.

dance + SS, dance + nightblade for AoE, dance + SoD + SS. basically anything that has to do with dance should be macro'd because it's on it's own dumb internal cd so you don't waste any time

[shaunika123]

So all spells that do damage are basically the same?

Because backstab is a filler spell that hits harder from behind the target, while shadowstrike is a teleporting, hard hitting, main rotation spell that is unlocked in certain stances. They are nothing alike.

you've got to be trolling right now, please say you are

[elfporn]

So all spells that do damage are basically the same?

Because backstab is a filler spell that hits harder from behind the target, while shadowstrike is a teleporting, hard hitting, main rotation spell that is unlocked in certain stances. They are nothing alike.

They are exactly alike in that they fulfill the same purpose in your rotation.

normal play, if paging worked, you'd be pressing backstab to build combo points, pool energy, press Shadow dance, and press shadow strike (an enhanced backstab type of attack - it even teleports you to rear of enemy!) to build combo points.

SS is an upgraded backstab, the same as ambush is an upgraded backstab, backstab is(or would be if paging worked) replaced by shadow strike while in stealth or dance.

- - - Updated - - -

So, in current build. Which macros are you guys using for Sub. I am completely lost.

The only macro i've made is a hardware macro to "manually" page to stealth bar and back(after 3 sec) when i press my Shadowdance hotkey. Literally the only option to fix blizzard's broke ass shadow dance paging.

[panzaghor]

So all spells that do damage are basically the same?

Because backstab is a filler spell that hits harder from behind the target, while shadowstrike is a teleporting, hard hitting, main rotation spell that is unlocked in certain stances. They are nothing alike.

How old are you?

[defury]

So all spells that do damage are basically the same?

Because backstab is a filler spell that hits harder from behind the target, while shadowstrike is a teleporting, hard hitting, main rotation spell that is unlocked in certain stances. They are nothing alike.

You are being intentionally obtuse, they are both your main damage rotational combo builders, shadowstrike is essentially a stealth stanced backstab. They are exactly the same thing for all intents and purposes.

[kiraan]

You are being intentionally obtuse, they are both your main damage rotational combo builders, shadowstrike is essentially a stealth stanced backstab. They are exactly the same thing for all intents and purposes.

As i see it, shadowstrike is your main combo builder. Backstab is only here if you're really unlucky with combo points procs from shadow technique or shadow dance charge. So you could say they don't serve the same purpose.

[defury]

As i see it, shadowstrike is your main combo builder. Backstab is only here if you're really unlucky with combo points procs from shadow technique or shadow dance charge. So you could say they don't serve the same purpose.

Except they absolutely do. They build combo points, they do damage and they are your main source of GCD's, they both do direct damage, they both are single target. Literally the only thing differentiating them is 5 energy and some damage. If you were able to macro the abilities together you could seamlessly press the button with no forethought, that makes them essentially the same thing.

[kiraan]

Except they absolutely do. They build combo points, they do damage and they are your main source of GCD's, they both do direct damage, they both are single target. Literally the only thing differentiating them is 5 energy and some damage. If you were able to macro the abilities together you could seamlessly press the button with no forethought, that makes them essentially the same thing.

If backstab is your main source of GCD, you're clearly doing something wrong. Subtelety is not about spamming backstab mindlessly when your outside of dance, you need to plan and pool energy.