Legion - Subtlety discussion

[shaunika123]

Ok i get point B,but just dont see how it can be such increase. Lets break it down to some math

a 5 CP+ finnisher grant 40 Energy that means at 100 Energy the boots will at max give you 60 Extra energy at the end of every shadowdance
- Backstab is 35 Energy so u can get an extra 1.7 backstabs each Shadowdance, but with the gameplay 100-35 = 65 means that we most likely will use shadow dance at this point as to not waste any charges.

Since running Master of shadows is a "must" we can then enter Shadow Dance
- So at best it gives you about 1 backstab each Shadow Dance, backstab that does about 1/3 of shadowstrike
- That means at best we get 2 extra combopoints every "rotation" - Ok i can see its a dps increase but not as OP as suggested

Then you say u wont be able to get 4 Shadowstrikes in 1 Shadow Dance
- Been testing this out and you are correct, at 1.5 GCD you wont get the second shadow strike in, but not due to energy, so the energy boots wouldnt help on that.
But at 1.4 GCD i can get 4 shadow strikes into every Shadow strike, thats about 2.4k Haste
- And as long as i enter shadowstrike with more than 65/70 energy i never seem to have any issues with doing this each time.

I mean the sub isnt about constant energy regen, cause during the time these boots will grant us energy is moments where you, if you plan well, dont need the energy at all, Cause it is not the energy that stops the sub rogue, its the GCD's

Unless the legendary boots lets you have a complely diffrent playstyle and set of talents tho
- Not saying the boots are bad or anything, but i just have issues seeing why, especially when people saying these boots make or break the class
- The whole sub seems to work around getting off as many finnishers as possible, dont see how more energry during shadow dance will let us do that when the energy is not was stops us from getting more. The main factor imo seems to be if we get the extra CP procs or if Weapon master procs at the correct time xD

you do realize haste has nothing to do with GCD for rogues right?

just wait till you get them, it's insane how much more energy and dps you do with them, trust me i know i played with them and without them and it's insane

[Ustabil]

in WoD they changed to make Haste affect GCD on all classes, even melee =)

I can gladly tape the rotation, with 2.4k haste i can get 4 SS each shadow dance.
- Tested it out for a long time now. Also everyone just says; "check logs its OP" or "sim it, its op", yet there is noone that has done the math on it, as far as i can see.

Sure you get 1 extra CP every Shadow dance (granted you use a GCD on this as well that might be used on something else, often dont need to wait a whole GCD to enter Shadow dance after last one)
- That is 3 sec of next shadow dance, with weapon mastery you have 12% getting 2 cp -> 6s off next shadow dance. So between 17-20 shadow dances are needed for that CP to give you an extra shadow dance

I can get how the boots make the class way more forgiving and that might help the logs, but dont get how it can beat the legendary ring in ST sim =/
- Thats why im asking for the math behind it, cause it surely has to be something more than just "more energy = more dps"

[Kwakman]

And Ustabill I think rogues are the only class now that has a fixed 1 second GCD regardeless of haste now

Also, can someone confirm if the Legendary boots give you back 20 Energy if Weaponmaster procs off of Shadowstrike?

[caboose54]

Ok i get point B,but just dont see how it can be such increase. Lets break it down to some math

a 5 CP+ finnisher grant 40 Energy that means at 100 Energy the boots will at max give you 60 Extra energy at the end of every shadowdance
- Backstab is 35 Energy so u can get an extra 1.7 backstabs each Shadowdance, but with the gameplay 100-35 = 65 means that we most likely will use shadow dance at this point as to not waste any charges.

Since running Master of shadows is a "must" we can then enter Shadow Dance
- So at best it gives you about 1 backstab each Shadow Dance, backstab that does about 1/3 of shadowstrike
- That means at best we get 2 extra combopoints every "rotation" - Ok i can see its a dps increase but not as OP as suggested

Then you say u wont be able to get 4 Shadowstrikes in 1 Shadow Dance
- Been testing this out and you are correct, at 1.5 GCD you wont get the second shadow strike in, but not due to energy, so the energy boots wouldnt help on that.
But at 1.4 GCD i can get 4 shadow strikes into every Shadow strike, thats about 2.4k Haste
- And as long as i enter shadowstrike with more than 65/70 energy i never seem to have any issues with doing this each time.

I mean the sub isnt about constant energy regen, cause during the time these boots will grant us energy is moments where you, if you plan well, dont need the energy at all, Cause it is not the energy that stops the sub rogue, its the GCD's

Unless the legendary boots lets you have a complely diffrent playstyle and set of talents tho
- Not saying the boots are bad or anything, but i just have issues seeing why, especially when people saying these boots make or break the class
- The whole sub seems to work around getting off as many finnishers as possible, dont see how more energry during shadow dance will let us do that when the energy is not was stops us from getting more. The main factor imo seems to be if we get the extra CP procs or if Weapon master procs at the correct time xD

The GCD for Rogues is 1 second, not 1.5 second.

You are correct in that you can guarantee 4 Shadowstrikes in one Shadow Dance even without the legendary boots or a max energy higher than 100, but you would need a bit more haste to boost your natural energy regeneration and a low enough latency to get the final Shadowstrike right before the Shadow Dance ends. The legendary boots ease those requirements by quite a bit.

The other benefit about the legendary boots is the considerable amount of energy you get back. What you have to understand is that there is a positive feedback loop that occurs with the boots:

More energy from boots => More combo points generated => More finishers used => More Shadow Dance usage, since its cooldown goes down when finishers are used => More Shadowstrikes used since we get more Shadow Dances => More energy from boots => so on and so forth

Warcraftlogs shows that the legendary boots almost double our energy gain, which is a quite a significant amount. In addition, you can end the Shadow Dance with more energy, meaning you have less downtime between Shadow Dances as well.

Edit: I forgot to mention that more Shadow Dance usage also means more energy back from Premeditation.

[Rixan]

Is anyone actively testing our DPS change on the PTR? I see a ton of assassination rogues saying they are getting a nice DPS increase in the current PTR build yet all I see for sub rogues is indications of a DPS decrease - but at the same time those claims seem highly speculative because i've seen no evidence of it.

If this is true it makes absolutely zero sense considering assassination is already well ahead of sub on most fights

[Ustabil]

The GCD for Rogues is 1 second, not 1.5 second.

The other benefit about the legendary boots is the considerable amount of energy you get back. What you have to understand is that there is a positive feedback loop that occurs with the boots:

More energy from boots => More combo points generated => More finishers used => More Shadow Dance usage, since its cooldown goes down when finishers are used => More Shadowstrikes used since we get more Shadow Dances => More energy from boots => so on and so forth

Warcraftlogs shows that the legendary boots almost double our energy gain, which is a quite a significant amount. In addition, you can end the Shadow Dance with more energy, meaning you have less downtime between Shadow Dances as well.

Sure we get back a lot of energy. but our main dmg is inside shadow dance.
During shadow dance, the ammount of finnishers or spells are not capped by your energy so all thats diffrent with the boots is that we go out of shadow dance with more energy

Ok that can mean 2 things, We either can get into next shadow dance faster or we can dump that energy into backstab for extra CP on cost of a GCD

1)
By going into Shadow dance earlier we increase our dps, but it will not decrease Shadow Dance charge time. So basicly we get to put out more dmg faster but will also then run out of charges faster
- Sure this gives use more finnishers in a shorter spand, but the instant you dont have 2 Shadow dances you can back to back, you cant rly get anythign out of it other that extra backstabs

2)
Then you can dump the excess energy into backstab, this will grant you 1 CP (2 with weapon mastery proc)
- 1 CP *= 3 sec reduction on Shadow dance, 2 = 6s duh
- So what this means is that after going out of shadow dance 16-20 times (aprox, depends on your RNG) you will have gained a whole extra charge of Shadow dance, To me that seems like a ok increase, not gamebreaking as people suggest.

[Critical92]

Test the 2 SS 1 Finisher 2 SS without your Artifact weapons to assure you don't have ES procs, even better would be to go Anticipation so you don't get the double 40 energy gains also. The more haste you have and/or need the lesser are your other stats. Haste will never give as much dps gains asthe other stats

What ever you do, never cast backstab while shd is running.

[Rixan]

Sure we get back a lot of energy. but our main dmg is inside shadow dance.
During shadow dance, the ammount of finnishers or spells are not capped by your energy so all thats diffrent with the boots is that we go out of shadow dance with more energy

Ok that can mean 2 things, We either can get into next shadow dance faster or we can dump that energy into backstab for extra CP on cost of a GCD

1)
By going into Shadow dance earlier we increase our dps, but it will not decrease Shadow Dance charge time. So basicly we get to put out more dmg faster but will also then run out of charges faster
- Sure this gives use more finnishers in a shorter spand, but the instant you dont have 2 Shadow dances you can back to back, you cant rly get anythign out of it other that extra backstabs

2)
Then you can dump the excess energy into backstab, this will grant you 1 CP (2 with weapon mastery proc)
- 1 CP *= 3 sec reduction on Shadow dance, 2 = 6s duh
- So what this means is that after going out of shadow dance 16-20 times (aprox, depends on your RNG) you will have gained a whole extra charge of Shadow dance, To me that seems like a ok increase, not gamebreaking as people suggest.

Its not about people suggesting anything, its about looking at the fucking logs and seeing the facts as clearly presented, you know, based on evidence

Why are you trying to theorycraft yourself into not believing that the boots are incredibly important to sub rogue raid performance?

Look at the logs and stop wasting your and everyone elses time

[Ustabil]

Cause following blindly what other people are saying without understanding it is what stupid people do

Also im not saying they are bad, im just simply asking for someone to explain why they are so op. And so far none has explained it other than sayint the exact same as everyone else.

I mean if the boots are that OP it should be fairly simple to explain exactly why and provide some intel on why

[Rixan]

Cause following blindly what other people are saying without understanding it is what stupid people do

Also im not saying they are bad, im just simply asking for someone to explain why they are so op. And so far none has explained it other than sayint the exact same as everyone else.

If you go look at the logs, you will clearly see how they are "so op".

You are asking for people to explain it to you when going to look at the actual recorded numbers and parsed fights is the best way for you to see the hard evidence on that matter.

People on this page alone have done a good job of explaining to you why they are "so op". You have decided to counter their well presented explanation with a strange theorycraft that appears more a justification as to why you dont want them to be "so op".

Go look at the logs. In doing this you are taking out opinion and taking out human error and looking directly at the numbers.

And those numbers will tell you, in so many strings of text, that the boots are incredibly powerful for sub rogue raid performance

[Ustabil]

Not rly tho. Im not trying to say they are bad, im asking why they are so good ? Cause cleary what im understanding is not correct then, yet no1 here can inform me why its wrong.

People answer with more energy -> more finnishers
- Im asking how ending Shadow Dance with more energy can make it that op
- Cause as other people stated, you can get fill every GCD within the shadow dance even without the boots.

As i see it then the main diffrence has to be outside shadow dance, and what spells do we use outside shadow dance, backstab
- And the sims show about 1/3 more backstabs but as we all know backstab is a shit spell and the sims i did the 10 extra backstabs = 30s off shadow dance total. How can that result in getting in 20 more shadow strikes
. Wich is even wierder is that the sim only shows that with boots you got 2 more shadow dances, that means showhow they got 20 shadow strikes in 2 shadow dances or somehow fit more shadow strikes into each shadow dance, wich i thought was impossible due to GCD.
- I also understand that you can enter shadow dance with lower energy and still be able to fill the GCD. So there is less waiting, again dont feel sub is sitting around for the longest time either.

[Korkk]

in WoD they changed to make Haste affect GCD on all classes, even melee =)

In Legion they changes classes to either have a fixed 1.0s GCD that is unaffected by haste, or a 1.5s GCD that IS affected by haste. Rogues are in the "1.0s GCD unaffected by haste" category.

- Cause as other people stated, you can get fill every GCD within the shadow dance even without the boots.

You can get 4 SSs without the boots, sure, but only sometimes due to the RNG energy returns/whether you need to refresh symbols of death.

[Ustabil]

If that is the case i can clearly see how its that good. Just cant seem to feel that im having issues filling the GCD when entering Shadow Dance at 70 energy. Guess having 5 energizing stabbings relic helps out a lot. But what your saying do seem to match the sims. Altho the sims make it seem like you get 1 extra shadow strike each shadow dance, and that cleary cant be the case or does the whole rotation change when you get the boots ?'

I mean can the sims be a little wrong? cause from what ive seeing the avg Shadowstrike pr shadow dance goes from 3.6 (with 1.9 Eviscerate) to 4.1 (with 2.1 Eviscerate)

- How can you avg 6.2 spells used (not counting the weapon master procs) each shadow dance ? when the max should be 6.0 ?

[Critical92]

Symbols of Death is not on the gcd and you can use that while doing an SS. With Boots you don't have to worry about SoD, refresh it when you need it because you will have always the energy. Without boots it will take the place of 1 SS.

[elfporn]

Not rly tho. Im not trying to say they are bad, im asking why they are so good ? Cause cleary what im understanding is not correct then, yet no1 here can inform me why its wrong.

People answer with more energy -> more finnishers
- Im asking how ending Shadow Dance with more energy can make it that op

Energy = dps. End of story.

Boots almost double energy returns. Double energy returns means more dps, whether inside dance or not.

The boots are so good that a well positioned rogue can be energy or gcd capped for almost an entire fight, hitbox size allowing (possible on helya for sure).

The reason boots are so good is because they return energy. That's it.

- - - Updated - - -

If that is the case i can clearly see how its that good. Just cant seem to feel that im having issues filling the GCD when entering Shadow Dance at 70 energy. Guess having 5 energizing stabbings relic helps out a lot. But what your saying do seem to match the sims. Altho the sims make it seem like you get 1 extra shadow strike each shadow dance, and that cleary cant be the case or does the whole rotation change when you get the boots ?'

I mean can the sims be a little wrong? cause from what ive seeing the avg Shadowstrike pr shadow dance goes from 3.6 (with 1.9 Eviscerate) to 4.1 (with 2.1 Eviscerate)

- How can you avg 6.2 spells used (not counting the weapon master procs) each shadow dance ? when the max should be 6.0 ?

Weaponmaster is very likely counted.

[Thrillhouse918]

Question: I got Dreadlord's Deceit (Leg that buffs Shuriken Storm)...how does this change my single target rotation, if at all? A Full 30 stack Shuriken Storm does over a million damage, so I've been trying to weave it in where I can but I'm not sure if I'm right.

[Deleted]

I havent played that much sub sofar, but one thing that I have a real problem with is Shadow Dance being on the GCD, and I sorta wish it wasnt.
Noticed that I often hit the button while on the GCD, so it never triggers and then I do a BS instead of a SS meaning Im back on the GCD waiting further to get Shadow Dance up.
Maybe it´s just something you gotta get used to, but for some reason it feels incredibly clunky to me right now.
Is there any reason why Shadow Dance SHOULD be on the GCD?

[shaunika123]

Question: I got Dreadlord's Deceit (Leg that buffs Shuriken Storm)...how does this change my single target rotation, if at all? A Full 30 stack Shuriken Storm does over a million damage, so I've been trying to weave it in where I can but I'm not sure if I'm right.

just use it whenever you got shadow dance and 30 stacks up basically, the rest of the rotation is the same

[Abalon]

Everyone see our tiny Goremaw bite buff?

[lolpve]

You can't get 4 SS and 1 finisher in your shd window unless you got a weaponmaster proc or ES proc or an 20% chance extra energy with DS without the boots.
The boots allow you a much cleaner rotation without relying on rng procs. When you have procs with the boots you can fill every gcd and you have nearly no time doing nothing and waiting for energy. If i remember correctly rogues don't get a lower gcd by haste but maybe that has changed.

With 100 energy and an cost of 40 per SS, +5 per finisher (cost 35 + 40 return, if we say you use eviscerate during dance) you need a huge amount of haste to generate the energy.
With the boots all this haste can go into mastery/crit/versa, what ever the loot god gives you, which are all dps gains.

I hope you see now why the boots are so strong and will be even after the nerf, but not so much.
I hope they address something in return with the nerf, but not because i have them, because it would be good for all of us.

This simply isn't true. I can get 4 SS + 1 finisher inside dance probably 99% of the time, without boots or procs. Procs allow 4 SS + finisher + SoD. I suspect the difficulty is down to latency since I have a 15ms ping and for the last SS I just spam the button and it hits just as dance ends. The benefit of the boots largely hinges on latency I suspect, which people are not factoring into dps calculations. The default latency on simulationcraft is 100ms which is extremely high for most Europeans on optical cable, even the "super low" setting of 25ms is more like a normal connection.