Legion - Subtlety discussion

[panzaghor]

except we wont since our setbonus got neutered to shit

"neutered to shit", you thought they were going to leave an op 4pc set untouched? It was literally broken, everyone had a 6-8% dif and we had almost 17%.
Balancing is good only when it benefits you.

[Deleted]

What's Sub like at cleave and AoE compared to the other specs?

[shaunika123]

Just as a side-note; it seems like you're of the opinion that Sub with boots on live is balanced (which is a necessity for some of your arguments to be sound). It is absolutely not. It's by a significant amount the best performing melee spec in both mythic ToV and EN and the only specs that come close are other rogue specs.

that's mainly because, as usual all melee specs suck dick tho, unfortunately you have to be OP as a melee to be even considered for a raidspot over a ranged these days, and an OP melee is basically an average ranged.

you cannot call sub OP in a world where shadowpriest exists,

also those percentile scores are really really flawed due to vast differences in representation, just look at firemage stats...

and as i said that's because of the boots
the boots give a ludicrous amount of dps, especially on helya due to how huge her hitbox is, it's not really a good statistic of how good sub is if the only thing keeping it afloat is one item that literally triple dips on 1/3 of the bosses, and as i said, due to the low representation it's basically only people with bis gear for it are playing it unlike assa and fire mage for example who are both fotm.

but the problem is, that they're still not adressing core issues with the spec without which it really does suck
sims dont really account for a lot of things that can go wrong for sub in an actual raid fight, even less so for outlaw, so it's not really a good way to judge something.
even if i concede you that sub dps is fine, blizzard is literally making the gameplay worse instead of better by the changes.

[panzaghor]

What's Sub like at cleave and AoE compared to the other specs?

Pure aoe - Outlaw
Cleave - Mut
Burst AOE\cleave E.G:Helya adds - Sub with cape, the golden aoe trait and the shuriken storm trait

[GT4]

that's mainly because, as usual all melee specs suck dick tho, unfortunately you have to be OP as a melee to be even considered for a raidspot over a ranged these days, and an OP melee is basically an average ranged.

Raid mechanics basically enforce a ratio of 1:2 melee:range and that's always been the case. If you look at actual DPS statistics and not just your gut feelings, SPs are the only consistently strong range DPS class.

you cannot call sub OP in a world where shadowpriest exists,

Great that SPs are getting a rework in 7.1.5 then, isn't it?

also those percentile scores are really really flawed due to vast differences in representation, just look at firemage stats...

They're not flawless but they're way more meaningful than just looking at the top X of a spec which is heavily flawed if you take into account the variance in DPS (both as a result of fight RNG and as a result of loot RNG). If you have two specs with the same mean DPS, the one with the higher amount of attempts (logs) will on average have the higher n-th highest DPS. Or in other words: The more logs you have, the more (quantitatively) and the more extreme (qualitatively) your statistical outliers will be.

Also what's your point about fire mage stats? On average, they're not particularly great (pretty average looking at ToV M) in raids at the moment. The top guarm logs are statistical outliers (based on fight RNG) with two BiS legendaries of which one is purely RNG (bracers have a 20% chance to proc on hot streaks) and the other benefits significantly from short fight durations (ring for second bloodlust). They're average for single target (with bracers, below average otherwise), have strong stacked AoE/passive stacked cleave, no multi-dotting and shitty target swapping.
Taking e.g. the highest fire mage log for guarm mythic, the very same mage did 100k DPS less the week before in practically the same gear which clearly shows how much of a difference RNG can make. The more players and logs you have for one spec, the more likely one will have godlike RNG and the more players will have had really good RNG in general.

and as i said that's because of the boots
the boots give a ludicrous amount of dps, especially on helya due to how huge her hitbox is, it's not really a good statistic of how good sub is if the only thing keeping it afloat is one item that literally triple dips on 1/3 of the bosses, and as i said, due to the low representation it's basically only people with bis gear for it are playing it unlike assa and fire mage for example who are both fotm.

First off, feel free to show me how it "literally triple dips" - I doubt you even know what that'd mean.
Secondly, you can check percentiles for different encounters and Sub is doing just as well on Odyn/Guarm as on Helya.
Thirdly, at high percentiles basically all classes have BiS legendaries (of which many others are also getting nerfed next patch), some as good or almost as good as sub boots (unholy bracers, fire bracers, warrior ring/gloves to name a few).

but the problem is, that they're still not adressing core issues with the spec without which it really does suck
sims dont really account for a lot of things that can go wrong for sub in an actual raid fight, even less so for outlaw, so it's not really a good way to judge something.
even if i concede you that sub dps is fine, blizzard is literally making the gameplay worse instead of better by the changes.

If you don't like sub gameplay without vastly overpowered boots, why did you decide to play sub to begin with? If you look at gameplay without boots, barely anything is changing at all compared to live.

[shaunika123]

First off, feel free to show me how it "literally triple dips" - I doubt you even know what that'd mean.
Secondly, you can check percentiles for different encounters and Sub is doing just as well on Odyn/Guarm as on Helya.
Thirdly, at high percentiles basically all classes have BiS legendaries (of which many others are also getting nerfed next patch), some as good or almost as good as sub boots (unholy bracers, fire bracers, warrior ring/gloves to name a few).

due to helyas hitbox the secondary energy return over range is basically equal to the normal 10 energy
you get like 18-20 energy back / SS which is retarded, that's what i mean

also fire bracers arent getting a ~70% nerf it's a 25% nerf just as most legendaries. nothing even comes close to how shat on the sub boots are getting.

and no not all top percentile assa rogues will have bracers but every single one of them will have boots. (oh and btw assa boots arent even being touched hwat a joke lol)

If you don't like sub gameplay without vastly overpowered boots, why did you decide to play sub to begin with? If you look at gameplay without boots, barely anything is changing at all compared to live.

because the deal was that i'd have the boots eventually? and it's not that i dont like it, it's that it's way worse
i also thought given how vocal the rogue community is, blizzard would at least accidentally open the feedback and fix the myriad of glaring issues with the spec instead of just bandaiding numbers like a moron.

btw this isnt a sub only issue necessarily DHs are having the same problem with the ring for example, blizzard deciding to fix class problems via legendaries and then nerfing those legendaries is borderline retarded

[elfporn]

The things wrong with sub are a lack of energy regen and the requirement of 3 to 5 talents to fill the gaping hole that lack creates.

Master of Shadows, Subterfuge, Premeditation are essential; Deeper Strategem and to a lesser extent Weaponmaster supplement the lack of resources that the spec suffers from.

The spec doesn't work at all in a competitive environment without those talents.

Are there any other specs in the game so completely reliant on their talents?

I can say that i've only changed my talents one time, to switch from Master of Subtlety to Weaponmaster, since the release of 7.0

This is the heart of the problem, which was bandaided by the boots and the now nerfed 4p bonus. It's why people don't like the spec without those bandaids.

[Abalon]

assuming i have both bracers and the boots am i going to be a energy starved sob with the nerfed 4 pc or how much worse should i expect it to be? may do nothing but arcway + 10+ over 200 times the next few months if ill be starved, this nerf may require the neck to make sub semi function for a st enviroement.

[elfporn]

assuming i have both bracers and the boots am i going to be a energy starved sob with the nerfed 4 pc or how much worse should i expect it to be? may do nothing but arcway + 10+ over 200 times the next few months if ill be starved, this nerf may require the neck to make sub semi function for a st enviroement.

You won't be energy capped like before the nerf. You will have no issues with energy during dance. You will have to pool to 65/70 energy like those of us without boots.

Anticipation might still be the goto talent with the 4p bonus, even nerfed. We'll have to see

edit: with the MoS nerf it will be 70/75 for pooling. Going to have to remember that.

[GT4]

due to helyas hitbox the secondary energy return over range is basically equal to the normal 10 energy
you get like 18-20 energy back / SS which is retarded, that's what i mean

That's not "triple dipping". You're just throwing hyperbolic claims around in hope nobody fact-checks you.

also fire bracers arent getting a ~70% nerf it's a 25% nerf just as most legendaries. nothing even comes close to how shat on the sub boots are getting.

First off, 70% is once again (who would've thought) exaggerated. It's a maximum of 70% if you're standing right inside of an enemy (0 yards distance) and less the farther you are (down to a 54% nerf at 15 yards range).

Secondly, fire bracers received an indirect nerf with the removal of ice floes. To get any use out of them, you now have to stand and hard-cast a >4 second pyroblast (at typical haste levels for fire). Thirdly, the current top single target fire DPS spec on PTR chaincasts flamestrike with stacked haste and subsequently doesn't trigger any hot streaks outside of combustion and subsequently barely benefits from the bracers at all.

Having said that, I'm not seeing how any of that is even relevant to any point?

and no not all top percentile assa rogues will have bracers but every single one of them will have boots. (oh and btw assa boots arent even being touched hwat a joke lol)

They do? Looking at Guarm's top 10, you have 5 boots, 7 bracers, 7 rings and 1 cloak. Seems pretty balanced to me. It's even more diverse when looking at e.g. Helya.

You make these bold claims and don't even bother to check even though it doesn't take more than five seconds.

because the deal was that i'd have the boots eventually? and it's not that i dont like it, it's that it's way worse
i also thought given how vocal the rogue community is, blizzard would at least accidentally open the feedback and fix the myriad of glaring issues with the spec instead of just bandaiding numbers like a moron.

btw this isnt a sub only issue necessarily DHs are having the same problem with the ring for example, blizzard deciding to fix class problems via legendaries and then nerfing those legendaries is borderline retarded

First off, if you're playing a class with the expectation of having a specific legendary/set bonus for the whole expansion, that's just dumb. Blizzard changes items all the time and when it comes to legendaries, "eventually" could as well mean at the very end of the expansion.

Secondly, just because you don't like something about a spec doesn't mean it's necessarily viewed as a problem by the majority of players or Blizzard. Expecting Blizzard to make changes in response to whine threads by the vocal minority is just as idiotic.

- - - Updated - - -

The things wrong with sub are a lack of energy regen and the requirement of 3 to 5 talents to fill the gaping hole that lack creates.

Master of Shadows, Subterfuge, Premeditation are essential; Deeper Strategem and to a lesser extent Weaponmaster supplement the lack of resources that the spec suffers from.

The spec doesn't work at all in a competitive environment without those talents.

Are there any other specs in the game so completely reliant on their talents?

I can say that i've only changed my talents one time, to switch from Master of Subtlety to Weaponmaster, since the release of 7.0

This is the heart of the problem, which was bandaided by the boots and the now nerfed 4p bonus. It's why people don't like the spec without those bandaids.

Just looking at the default T19M Sub profile on PTR for single target (in some cases, other talents actually win for multi-target):
MoS and Weaponmaster are practically even
Anticipation and Vigor are 1.5% and 2% behind Deeper Stratagem
Alacrity is 2.5% below Premeditation for single target (and way more significantly ahead for multi-target)
MfD is 2% below MoS for single target (and potentially ahead if you can get resets)
DfA is <1% below MoS for single target (and potentially ahead for cleave)

Compared to other specs and classes, that's actually pretty well balanced and not choosing the talents you stated clearly doesn't make the spec unplayable as you suggest.

If you don't enjoy specs that aren't GCD-capped most of the time, you have plenty other specs to choose from that suit you better.

[shaunika123]

That's not "triple dipping". You're just throwing hyperbolic claims around in hope nobody fact-checks you.

is there really a point of a semantic argument at this point? my point is that it provides vastly exaggerated numbers on helya.

First off, 70% is once again (who would've thought) exaggerated. It's a maximum of 70% if you're standing right inside of an enemy (0 yards distance) and less the farther you are (down to a 54% nerf at 15 yards range).

okay, at 5 yards you get 12 now and you'll get 4 in the next patch, that's a 66% nerf, that's twice as much at least than most other legendary nerfs

Having said that, I'm not seeing how any of that is even relevant to any point?

you said the fire mage bracers are as much or nearly as much of a nerf as the sub boots, when they really arent.
whether the current iteration plays without triggering HS (which will be fixed i guarantee you) doesnt change that.

[elfporn]

Just looking at the default T19M Sub profile on PTR for single target (in some cases, other talents actually win for multi-target):
MoS and Weaponmaster are practically even
Anticipation and Vigor are 1.5% and 2% behind Deeper Stratagem
Alacrity is 2.5% below Premeditation for single target (and way more significantly ahead for multi-target)
MfD is 2% below MoS for single target (and potentially ahead if you can get resets)
DfA is <1% below MoS for single target (and potentially ahead for cleave)

Compared to other specs and classes, that's actually pretty well balanced and not choosing the talents you stated clearly doesn't make the spec unplayable as you suggest.

If you don't enjoy specs that aren't GCD-capped most of the time, you have plenty other specs to choose from that suit you better.

So you're telling me that it is okay to play sub where

SD lasts 3 seconds, SS generates 1 combo point, and SD does not generate energy.

Please tell me more.

Those percentages don't mean shit.

WM is better because of resource generation (energy+CP)
Subterfuge is important because of resource generation (energy+CP)
Deeper Strat is important because of resource generation (energy)
Premed is important because of resource generation (CP)
MoS is important because of resource generation (energy)

Each of those is favored over the rest because of the resource gains or consistency associated with those talents.
note: There may be a point where the gains from alacrity outweigh the gains from premed. I like the idea of alacrity, but i don't take it (just like every competitive sub rogue) because without it i am unable to generate enough resources (cp) to maintain SD charges without significant downtime.

The 100 tier may be close on paper, and despite the nerf to MoS (which was done to try and incentivize using the other talents) no one will ever use DFA because other classes cleave better natively, and MfD might become niche if it can get enough resets per minute to beat out the sheer energy gen of MoS.
MoS is better in nearly all situations.

No sub rogue worth a shit will ever use any other talents.

Well balanced talents or not(on paper) those 4/5 talents are what every sub rogue uses to make up for the bad design.

Perhaps we've taken what they have given us and turned the rotation into something other than intended with subterfuge and the requirements it creates in the rotation. If subterfuge wasn't there, the lack of energy would be spread out through the whole rotation instead of focused within SD. It may have made the spec easier to balance and play, and other talents more desirable, mfd/alacrity in particular.

But we have subterfuge. And a legacy of bad design.

And it's not about being GCD capped.

Also, I said the spec would not work in a competitive environment without those talents, and i stand by that. That's not saying it's unplayable.

[panzaghor]

Can we please stop fighting? "They nerfed my 4pc", boo hoo we can't do any thing about it and blizzard won't buff it back to 100% again(expect a MAXIMUM of 50% during the first week of nighthold) creating a bunch of pages about a nerf In one of the best legendaries in the game, some people have questions about the spec and its hard to notice them with all this text.
If you want more energy there's vigor to cover that even though ds is better they will need it in the patch so it will make it easier changing. After considering all options if you still don't like the spec go ahead and play mut since it is so good.

[Deleted]

Panzatard you should be probably in the 72% of sin players who refuse that sub could be a better spé for NH because you dont have legs / AP for switch. IF not you are a guy who spend his time in myhic+2-4 and who dont care about sub dps/viability in raid. Stop trash talk and stay away from this part of the forum.

edit :I checked your wowprogress and warcraftlogs and im close to 2) frustrated sub without boots who do mythic+2-4

Amount of Mythic 2+ Dungeons completed in time: 25
Amount of Mythic 5+ Dungeons completed in time: 12
Amount of Mythic 10+ Dungeons completed in time: 0

4/7 NM MM
0/3 TOV

Warcraftlogs : Best Perf. Avg 60 just lol

Your credibility is near 0

This is a sub thread not a thread for frustrated people or clowns who have not a single idea how to play sub and his viability.

[GT4]

So you're telling me that it is okay to play sub where

SD lasts 3 seconds, SS generates 1 combo point, and SD does not generate energy.

Please tell me more.

Those percentages don't mean shit.

WM is better because of resource generation (energy+CP)
Subterfuge is important because of resource generation (energy+CP)
Deeper Strat is important because of resource generation (energy)
Premed is important because of resource generation (CP)
MoS is important because of resource generation (energy)

Each of those is favored over the rest because of the resource gains or consistency associated with those talents.
note: There may be a point where the gains from alacrity outweigh the gains from premed. I like the idea of alacrity, but i don't take it (just like every competitive sub rogue) because without it i am unable to generate enough resources (cp) to maintain SD charges without significant downtime.

The 100 tier may be close on paper, and despite the nerf to MoS (which was done to try and incentivize using the other talents) no one will ever use DFA because other classes cleave better natively, and MfD might become niche if it can get enough resets per minute to beat out the sheer energy gen of MoS.
MoS is better in nearly all situations.

No sub rogue worth a shit will ever use any other talents.

Well balanced talents or not(on paper) those 4/5 talents are what every sub rogue uses to make up for the bad design.

Perhaps we've taken what they have given us and turned the rotation into something other than intended with subterfuge and the requirements it creates in the rotation. If subterfuge wasn't there, the lack of energy would be spread out through the whole rotation instead of focused within SD. It may have made the spec easier to balance and play, and other talents more desirable, mfd/alacrity in particular.

But we have subterfuge. And a legacy of bad design.

And it's not about being GCD capped.

Also, I said the spec would not work in a competitive environment without those talents, and i stand by that. That's not saying it's unplayable.

You were making an argument about how sub is locked in more into talents than other specs.

First off, I didn't include Subterfuge in my list because it's the only talent row with a basically mandatory talent. All other talents mentioned are within at worst 2.5% for single target and can easily become better if any multi-target or burst is involved. In the end, you will always have a set of best talents for single target but sub's talents on PTR are basically as close as it gets and if you were forced to change one of the talents, you'd barely notice any difference in your performance, clearly suggesting that they're not as mandatory as you want to believe.

Secondly, many other specs are locked into specific talents much more so than sub is. E.g. feral on PTR literally loses between 8% and 14% single target DPS if they only change a single talent in any of their last three rows. If you go from the best talent combination in those three rows alone to the worst one on PTR (the weaker options were all buffed in 7.1.5 so it's even worse on live), you go from 456k to 326k single target DPS, a loss of 28.5% of your total DPS. Your bleeds in particular go from ~260k DPS to ~116k DPS because you lose 25% damage from savage roar, 33% bleed damage from jagged wounds and 50% bleed damage from bloodtalons. That's a case where a spec's rotation actually doesn't work the same (or given the results, at all) any more if you change any of the talents. Complaining about losing 2% purely single target is whining at the highest level.

Overall you're making it very obvious that you prefer feelings over actual data when arguing about facts. Posts like yours are the reason why Blizzard has to ignore the majority of "feedback".

As a side-note: How often do you want to talk about how all resource talents are mandatory and then throw in deep stratagem when vigor would clearly result in more resources? In fact, going by your talent descriptions you're either intentionally bullshitting or you don't even have a clue what your talents do.

[Abalon]

does anyone know optmal talent set up for when patch gloves live . I realize talents are close

Im assuming
weapon master
subteruge
deeper strat - anticipation once we have 4 pc
cheat death
premed
master of shadows?

[panzaghor]

Panzatard you should be probably in the 72% of sin players who refuse that sub could be a better spé for NH because you dont have legs / AP for switch. IF not you are a guy who spend his time in myhic+2-4 and who dont care about sub dps/viability in raid. Stop trash talk and stay away from this part of the forum.

edit :I checked your wowprogress and warcraftlogs and im close to 2) frustrated sub without boots who do mythic+2-4

Amount of Mythic 2+ Dungeons completed in time: 25
Amount of Mythic 5+ Dungeons completed in time: 12
Amount of Mythic 10+ Dungeons completed in time: 0

4/7 NM MM
0/3 TOV

Warcraftlogs : Best Perf. Avg 60 just lol

Your credibility is near 0

This is a sub thread not a thread for frustrated people or clowns who have not a single idea how to play sub and his viability.

Sure, im the frustrated sub rogue complaining about something that already happened instead of discussing a way to fix it since blizzard won't go back anyway because every spec that received a buff in their sets and legos is doing the same right now. If there are feral druids in raids there will always be a spot for a subtlety rogue.

My guild isn't entirely focused in mythics as of right now since we are looking for members to complete our roster and I don't have time to spend doing mythic + because I spend most of my day stdying/working but I have completed a few +12 because as you can see on my armory I'm using a +12 shoulder that I got two weeks ago.
You are complaining about my 60% in mythic without proving that you are better.

[shaunika123]

As a side-note: How often do you want to talk about how all resource talents are mandatory and then throw in deep stratagem when vigor would clearly result in more resources? In fact, going by your talent descriptions you're either intentionally bullshitting or you don't even have a clue what your talents do.

so combo points arent a resource?

[panzaghor]

so combo points arent a resource?

He didn't say anything about cp not being a resource and e is trying to prove they didn't intend to fix the energy problem with the boots since we already have vigor and it will be viable next patch.
The boots were meant to boost the dps and not fix the class.

[shaunika123]

He didn't say anything about cp not being a resource and e is trying to prove they didn't intend to fix the energy problem with the boots since we already have vigor and it will be viable next patch.
The boots were meant to boost the dps and not fix the class.

taking vigor, while sort of eliminates the energy problem ,creates a combo point problem, it's not exactly a solution

even if on paper it's "viable", it will never be a good choice simply because we have so many accidental combo points we'd be wasting multiple eviscerates and thus shadow dance charges if we took it.

i mean MFD was the best choice for sub in HFC based on sims and yet noone was taking it either right?