Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Deleted]

new build, small change

symbols of death is now on a 10 second cooldown but gives guaranteed crit on your next shadowstrike

kinda meh honestly

The only thing that does is make it macro-able to shadow dance/vanish without it ending up a dps loss (<-untested) So now every single time we enter stealth we'll want to use it for that juicy crit...i'd rather have a guaranteed energetic stabbing proc

and the answer is:

Edit: Ok new SoD paired with PA is actually pretty nice and raises the burst enough so that it is still below Thiefs Bargin but decent enough to be scary with the 45% crit chance on Eviscerate. Amusingly enough it is quite funny sniping kills with SS now in bgs with PA, as the auto crit hits for 250-300k, tho irrelevant in the grander scheme of things

Yeah, the answer is pretty obvious. Giving certain crit chance after activating SoD is a buff to PA (phantom Assassin) in order to be more competitive with TB (Thief's Bargain). However, PA (i agree) wills till be below TB), because truth be told, you still can crit without SoD buff. And the benefits you get from TB are far better. Perhaps PA should be thing to be buffed only, granting 2 crits on your next two SS, making a talent to go for burst.

[elfporn]

Ahhaaa!! Well pointed out, i missed that change!!!

Yep confirmed SoD now benefits from pandemic, whoop!! Far Far less clunky now keeping it up!!

Yea with pandemic and the incentive to use it for the crit, it makes application and maintenance fairly trivial, though 35 energy for a guaranteed crit...idk, what's the normal crit% on character at 110 right now?

The more i think about it, the less i like the cost of that extra crit, it's 5 energy short of the cost of shadowstrike itself, while 2x shadowstrikes has the chance to crit twice...So basically, 1 guaranteed SS crit, or the chance to crit twice at nearly the same cost(2 uses). And each SS. Has the chance(or guarantee) to generate energy.

The option to get that on-demand burst is nice, but i don't think it will be a pve dps increase to dump 75 energy into 1 SS with the benefits of using 2x SS instead.

Time and theorycrafting will tell.

[Kalador]

So I'm guessing the depending on gear levels you either want to SoD on every dance even if you already have it up above the threshold or not....-ish
Like seeing how you can count the guaranteed crit shadowstrike as 2 shadowstrikes, would mean you save 5 energy for the same amount of shadowstrikes, but forfeit the chance to get a crit on your normal shadowstrike.
So the way I see it, depending on haste (to see if the 5energy actually makes a difference, to fit one more ability in dance+sub) and crit (low crit=higher chance not to crit with your normal shadowstrike so the guaranteed crit becomes better) what we want to do with SoD changes. Or is something flawed here that I haven't seen?

Yeah this the same way I see it... if you take subterfuge it might be better to not SoD. I think you have to factor in the fact that SoD is off the GCD witch means that if you have enough energy to SoD + 3 SS (instade of just 3 SS) it's gonna be better to cast it every time you go into dance. You probably want to use it in vanish and sprint 2.

[Deleted]

Ahhaaa!! Well pointed out, i missed that change!!!

Yep confirmed SoD now benefits from pandemic, whoop!! Far Far less clunky now keeping it up!!

I think kalaractic pointed out in the Beta thread that you can now basically refresh SoD every 20 seconds. I guess they are trying to make the optimal usage of ShD charges every 20 seconds, in the end giving you the same uptime as the previous 1 minute ShD (since I doubt that it's optimal to use SoD every 10 seconds, even with the crit buff). Do you think this is viable?

[Deleted]

I think kalaractic pointed out in the Beta thread that you can now basically refresh SoD every 20 seconds. I guess they are trying to make the optimal usage of ShD charges every 20 seconds, in the end giving you the same uptime as the previous 1 minute ShD (since I doubt that it's optimal to use SoD every 10 seconds, even with the crit buff). Do you think this is viable?

Yea with pandemic and the incentive to use it for the crit, it makes application and maintenance fairly trivial, though 35 energy for a guaranteed crit...idk, what's the normal crit% on character at 110 right now?

The more i think about it, the less i like the cost of that extra crit, it's 5 energy short of the cost of shadowstrike itself, while 2x shadowstrikes has the chance to crit twice...So basically, 1 guaranteed SS crit, or the chance to crit twice at nearly the same cost(2 uses). And each SS. Has the chance(or guarantee) to generate energy.

The option to get that on-demand burst is nice, but i don't think it will be a pve dps increase to dump 75 energy into 1 SS with the benefits of using 2x SS instead.

Time and theorycrafting will tell.

Apart from the direct buff to the PA PvP talent, it strikes me as more of a refund of damage to eliminate that "feels badman" feeling for the lost global during dance as well as making SoD a more interesting and fun button to push since you know a fat crit is coming after it(which has generally been the main complaint with SoD after it dropped off the GCD). With crits doing 200% in PvE it is basically a free SS which puts up a 20% damage buff at the expense of 5 more energy and no combo points. It aslo gives you more breathing room in terms of when you want to use dance in the last 15s of your current SoD buff now it works with pandemic. As elf pointed out with the energy cost and the fact that that lost global also means lost combo points, i doubt it would be optimal to just blindly refresh it every 20s, as long as your not capping resouces (energy/dances charges) it will be better to wait for trinket procs etc to tunnel as much damage into those windows, a little bit like MoP destro with chaos bolt usage.

However i don't think it will change the mantra of sitting on a 1 dance charge if you have no vanish and SoD is below 20s to eliminate RnG from fucking you on dance procs but after hitting the dummy for a while it has totally smoothed out the rotation and it does not feel clunky at all. It even allows you to take advantage of trinket procs that happen when your below 15s SoD now which adds another layer of depth when trying to squeeze out more dps, which can't be a bad thing.

All in all a good change IMO, now if they would only fix that fucking SD bar issue...........

[zaino]

and the answer is:


Yeah, the answer is pretty obvious. Giving certain crit chance after activating SoD is a buff to PA (phantom Assassin) in order to be more competitive with TB (Thief's Bargain). However, PA (i agree) wills till be below TB), because truth be told, you still can crit without SoD buff. And the benefits you get from TB are far better. Perhaps PA should be thing to be buffed only, granting 2 crits on your next two SS, making a talent to go for burst.

wtb TB for pve

[RobertoCarlos]

Sub's damage in pvp is looking pretty brutal. Probably get nerfed then have nothing except dodge and low vanish cooldown.

[Deleted]

Sub's damage in pvp is looking pretty brutal. Probably get nerfed then have nothing except dodge and low vanish cooldown.

That damage comes at a heavy HEAVY price tho. Thief's Bargain is an amazing talent, and i'm having a lot of fun with it in BG's where you can abuse the 21s vanish and sick damage since sitting in stealth and being picky about who you target is, but you are turbo squishy, like die in a 4s stun squishy if you have no trinket. Once skirmishes become available we can get some decent testing done as to the viability of running Thief's Bargain in arena, but already my thoughts as i have mentioned before are gravitating towards PA being the necessary talent to run for the extra survivability since re-stealths are far harder and you need to support your team mates with sustained/peeling/cc, meaning you can't afford to sit in stealth all the time so you'll just get trained with such low HP, not to mention bleeds just fuck you over totally. Plus the fact now with the buff to SoD means that PA is not that far behind TB, probably i would say ~10% less burst so when you add on the fact that you have 27.5% more HP with PA it pretty much seems like a no brainer.

I've no doubt the nerf bat will descend on us at some point, as it will for the majority since PvP templates haven't been adjusted yet, so we'll just have to hope they understand that we're pretty much a one trick burst pony now we lost a lot of our utility, which they have mentioned before that they are fine with sub being one of the highest burst specs in the game.

[kalaratic]

I think kalaractic pointed out in the Beta thread that you can now basically refresh SoD every 20 seconds. I guess they are trying to make the optimal usage of ShD charges every 20 seconds, in the end giving you the same uptime as the previous 1 minute ShD (since I doubt that it's optimal to use SoD every 10 seconds, even with the crit buff). Do you think this is viable?

the refresh time is 10 sec or less. it adds 35 sec to the duration to a max of 45 sec. and ya at least for early gear levels u don't want to refresh SoD on cd cause we can't afford to waste that much energy atm

- - - Updated - - -

also can anyone in the beta test eviscerate for me? either i'm fucking crazy or it's doing like half of what the tooltip says it's supposed to. i noticed that my finality dfa's were not even getting close to the mils even tho i had geared up a fuck ton

[dloc76]

I was seeing the same thing kalaratic. I think numbers got tuned down stealth wise. I was hitting a lot lower on a lot of my finishers.

[Wow]

Are we talking about pve eviscerates or in pvp. I could see them hotfixing pvp but not pve.

[kalaratic]

Are we talking about pve eviscerates or in pvp. I could see them hotfixing pvp but not pve.

pve. i was wondering why i was struggling so much doing dungeons and then i saw a 5cp evisc hit for like 180k at ilvl 830 earlier today. thanks for confirming it dloc76, at least i know it's not just me

[dloc76]

Yeah, I'm talking about pve as well. I've seen all my numbers drop actually. Backstabs, Shadowstrikes and Eviscerates.

[Deleted]

I've seen a slight drop in numbers from both sides, but with 802 ilvl pvp gear im still hitting 900k Finality DFA's on the raiding target dummy with a trinket up, and still seeing +850k's in bgs on cloth/leather with the odd Mill still happening on mages.

Good adjustment tbh, the damage is still there and scary but not rediculous as before, healers actually have a chance to get a cooldown off when i burst them now

On a side note, i think it was just eviscerate that was adjusted as i'm still seeing the same damage from SS (280-330k crits) and the pvp templates seem the same stats wise. Backstab damage is unknown for me as to be quite frank i dont ever use it as the damage/energy cost is atrocious, its better to try get re-stealths/aoe and put up nightblades etc and bug out if you have no dance available as you do zero damage otherwise.

[kalaratic]

On a side note, i think it was just eviscerate that was adjusted as i'm still seeing the same damage from SS (280-330k crits) and the pvp templates seem the same stats wise. Backstab damage is unknown for me as to be quite frank i dont ever use it as the damage/energy cost is atrocious, its better to try get re-stealths/aoe and put up nightblades etc and bug out if you have no dance available as you do zero damage otherwise.

that's really weird because i notice my shadowstrikes are doing 40k less than the tooltip on top of evisc hitting for half of what the tooltip is saying

[Deleted]

that's really weird because i notice my shadowstrikes are doing 40k less than the tooltip on top of evisc hitting for half of what the tooltip is saying

Bizarre!!! You on the leveling servers or pvp ones?

I wonder if there is some dungeon zoning thats adjusting the numbers? Or mob armour being too high as mitigation would be the only thing that would make sense for you doing less damage than the tooltip?

[kalaratic]

Bizarre!!! You on the leveling servers or pvp ones?

I wonder if there is some dungeon zoning thats adjusting the numbers? Or mob armour being too high as mitigation would be the only thing that would make sense for you doing less damage than the tooltip?

leveling. it's not just in dungeons too it's just everywhere. i have the same result on dummies as well

[elfporn]

Posted by Swol
Shadow Blades
Right now Shadow Techniques won't proc during this, since your auto attack turns into two spells that are cast instead. Is this intended? Seems like the combo point generating portion of the buff is someone offset by the reduced combo point generation from auto attacks? Also, does this mean that you don't suffer from the DW miss penalty either? It seems like that is the case right now.


Shadow Techniques + Shadow Blades fixed for next next build. Yes, you don’t suffer the DW miss penalty during Shadow Blades.

There were a few things in the theory craft thread for rogues, this is just one, as useless as SB is, it looks like shadowTech was bugged for SB, so yay more combo points.

[kalaratic]

There were a few things in the theory craft thread for rogues, this is just one, as useless as SB is, it looks like shadowTech was bugged for SB, so yay more combo points.

it's funny too cause the last thing this spec needs is more combo points. at least that guy who posted fixed up some shit for us. if they don't fix akaari missing by next build i'll prob have to post in there since that would prove to me no one is clicking the sub thread

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also does it annoy anyone else how shadow dance is on the gcd? like wtf is this change, we're hitting the button way more often now and so i need to hit it when i want, especially now that u overflow in cp so sometimes i have to pop it before hitting a finisher not to waste a charge but i have to wait 2 gdc's instead of 1. and especially with SoD sometimes u don't even want to macro it into shadowstrike just so u can only refresh the buff

[elfporn]

some more responses:

Posted by Xaryen
1)Is Finality: Nightblade supposed to pandemic with regular Nightblade?


We’ll get this fixed.

05/23/2016 11:01 AMPosted by Xaryen
2)Weaponmaster - Does the second hit only do damage or can it trigger additional effects of the original cast, for example can it trigger Deepening Shadows/Alacrity/Energetic Stabbing/Second Shuriken/bonus combo points(shuriken storm) etc.


Yes, it should be triggering a full second copy of each DD ability, with all additional affects as such. On periodic damage ticks, it deals an additional hit named “Weaponmaster” of the same damage.

05/23/2016 11:01 AMPosted by Xaryen
Deeper Stratagem - Are Alacrity/Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes supposed to have 20% chance for an additional effect proc when using a finisher at 6 CPs?


They’re supposed to, but likely aren’t yet. We’ll get that fixed.

From what i understand - nightblade:finality might be counted as it's own DoT?(mega abuse for this, castin nightblades 2x as often) or more likely pandemic will work correctly, but the rest of the finality damage won't be lost....somehow.

And Deeper Strat's 6th cp is supposed to be added to cp based effects like alacrity and relentless strikes....so 100% +20%(separate roll) proc chance on those for 6cp use, not bad.

And weaponmaster may be better than expected....it still sucks though imo