No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[rebecca191]

I'm sorry but what? Who has ever said they felt like a silly fairy like flying? You flybabies aren't even trying anymore and are resorting to straight up lies.

It's probably about 20 or 30 pages back at this point, but I believe it was Phumbles who said it.

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If most players were bothered by the lack of flight, this thread would be 20k pages by now with several hundred pro-flight posters. My guess is, there are about 5-10 people on each side of the topic keeping it alive for 544 pages. Seems like a silly reason not to play the game. You get flight eventually anyway, and still have to land to do most of the requirements. Exploration and most treasures are about the only flight accessible parts of the achievement.

For me it's pretty simple.

I do not want to contribute to box sales and subs while flying is completely unavailable. I don't want to reward Blizzard with my money when the present state of the game is not acceptable to me. The only vote I have is with my wallet. I am not willing to buy the expansion and then stay subbed for months during which flying is not available. Literally the ONLY thing I am willing to do without flying, in the world, in Legion, is the achievement to get flying. That's it. I won't do pet battles without flying. I won't do archeology without flying. I won't collect toys without flying. I won't do optional world achievements without flying. So if I don't want to sub for months of no flying, and there's nothing in game I feel like doing without flying, why on earth would I buy the game now? When I can skip months of frustration and save myself some money?

I'll buy Legion and start the achievement when flying is on the PTR and not a moment sooner. I played the beta and didn't see a single thing that would make me want to be subscribed while flying isn't obtainable.

[SirCowdog]

Actually, it can be.

I can see the argument shifted in exactly the opposite scenario we have right now. Instead of the complaint that we have to wait to unlock flying, it would be shifted to having flight be 'crippled' by having no-flight subzones.

"I leveled up to max, did my achievements and paid my dues to get flight, only to have it inaccessable where I need it the most. I would rather Blizzard just delayed its release let us unlock unhindered flying and instead of clipping our wings and gimping flight. We worked for flight, we should be allowed to explore and enjoy it!"

We've had areas made inaccessible through sky patrols before, but nothing so obvious in tandem with a travel mechanic. This only makes travel mechanics an easy scapegoat for more 'Blizzard favours gimmicks over flight!' rhetoric.

I have to disagree strongly here. How many people complained about the kaliri birds or anti air cannons in TBC? Certainly a handful, but nowhere near the same levels as surrounding the complete blanket suppression of flying.

How much complaining was there about flying in the previous years leading up to WoD? Almost non-existent outside of some pvp servers, and not even very many of them.

[MoanaLisa]

I have to disagree strongly here. How many people complained about the kaliri birds or anti air cannons in TBC? Certainly a handful, but nowhere near the same levels as surrounding the complete blanket suppression of flying.

People are already generally pissed about the daze ground mechanic and you want to add something that will kill those without slow fall or something else of that nature.

I don't see that happening. And I don't see it as being welcomed by players either.

[-Joker-]

For me it's pretty simple. The only vote I have is with my wallet.

This is all anyone can do when they are not impressed with the game as judged by their standards. I'm sure if everyone shared that same view, this thread likely would fade into an archive as people would express their concerns, unsub, and wait until flight is announced. As it stands, people are laboring under the misconception that this thread will garner Blizzard's attention, and apologies, and flight will be added tomorrow. If they stopped for a moment, and considered the more realistic outcome, flight will come with 7.1 in part 2 of the Pathfinder achievement.

Meanwhile, the rest of the populous of players will continue to march through Legion and into the next patch, and the one after that regardless of having Flight. I wish you well with your break from the game.

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People are already generally pissed about the daze ground mechanic and you want to add something that will kill those without slow fall or something else of that nature.

I don't see that happening. And I don't see it as being welcomed by players either.

Agreed. And, Blizz already said in a few different places that mechanics such as those were not going to solve the more inherent concerns with flight. If anything, it would upset the playerbase further. While I was a fan of TBC and MoP, I did not care for the Surface to Air rockets in Blade's Edge and Domination Point. I think I would rather walk than get blasted from the sky, and I am an engineer with a goblin glider.

[SirCowdog]

I think an expac without mounts could be interesting, at least til patch X.1. Make the entire area like one big 5 man indoor instance. Take us completely underground to the center of Azeroth (not Deepholm) and have us rely on ziplines, mine carts, grappling hooks, and other items for transportation. Leaving flight out til 7.1 is not a nightmare, unless you are just not skilled or motivated enough to manage the terrain without just hopping over most of it. Considering mobs and resources are no longer a competition, full time flight would not be bad, but I'm sure Blizz wants people to at least see the content from the ground first, and then the skies.

In a lot of ways, isn't that what we already have with Legion's flight paths, whistle, gliders, and grapples? The only effective difference between your suggestion is theme and regular ground mounts, if you really stop and think about it.

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People are already generally pissed about the daze ground mechanic and you want to add something that will kill those without slow fall or something else of that nature.

I don't see that happening. And I don't see it as being welcomed by players either.

Actually, if you read my suggestions, the first two involved mechanics to avoid instant death from falling. What I suggested isn't much different than daze, to be sure. But like I said, these would only be used around certain quest areas and not everywhere like with daze. They'd be used as deterrents exactly the same way that the dispelling NPCs in Suramar are used against your illusion. And I don't see many complaints about that. In fact the opposite. People PRAISE suramar for being excellent design.

So where does that leave us? It's OK on the ground but not the air?

[Eats Compost]

As I said, those were ideas off the top of my head. But how would they be any worse than the invisible walls or cliffs or dazing monsters on the ground that are already in heavy use across Legion?

As for dropping in on quest monsters, we've been over that subject as nausem. Gliding, stealth, CC, or aggro drops accomplish the same thing, and no one seems to have any problem with those. How is this different?


And haven't they already used many different types of things in the past? You're assuming, or arguing from the assumption, that no-flying is inherently better, and that flying is the problem. Except that up until WoD it wasn't. It wasn't until Blizzard tried to force the issue with such blunt lack of finesse that it became a problem.

The antagonistic relationship between objective design and flying has already been gone over a million times. I think ts clear that they don't want to go with a Cataclysm-style approach again, and the implementation of flying is contingent on making it work within these parameters. A personal preference for flying is fine, but we already know that Blizzard aren't comfortable with the more lax flying model now that the novelty's gone.

This comes back to specific solutions versus general ideas. It's important to be super specific about the mechanics of a compromise, rather than just suggesting that Blizzard does something with X. Otherwise, it's not really good feedback outside of expressing that you want flying. We sorta know that Blizzard's not going to go back to MoP or Cata on this one, so suggestions that work within that frame are helpful.

[Rainec]

I hate to be that guy, but I don't post often and am genuinely curious.
Is there no option to ignore a thread? I see this thread pop up in the activity feed all the time and I just don't get why it needs 500+ pages. Same for WoD's flying thread back during the expac, even after flying was obtainable.

Now here's an opinion:
More than I've noticed in other expansions, I love how much of Legion's environments feel like they were real landscapes, and when the Elves, Vykrul, etc. came, they built their temples and villages around that land.
The environments feel great to traverse, with the perfect amount of inconvenience (ignoring the Archeology points put right on top of locations with many hostile, elite, patrolling enemies. Seriously, fuck those. That's an Archeology problem, not a flying/environment problem).

So, more than WoD, why the superfluous discussion?
These environments are better designed and more beautiful than ever before, so why?
I do not understand how flying can be so controversial.
It is a nonessential convenience, nothing more.

[Thimagryn]

I have to disagree strongly here. How many people complained about the kaliri birds or anti air cannons in TBC? Certainly a handful, but nowhere near the same levels as surrounding the complete blanket suppression of flying.

How much complaining was there about flying in the previous years leading up to WoD? Almost non-existent outside of some pvp servers, and not even very many of them.

No one complained in TBC because all anyone had to compare flight to was ground travel. Flight never existed before.

The standard of flight was set with TBC. Those are the expectations many people have come to expect, and that's what systems today are being compared to. Look at the current situation. We already know flight will happen, it's only a matter of when; yet people are vocally frustrated that it's not enough. Everything we have now is being compared to how things worked before.

A change in flight mechanics to make it more dangerous will not favour those who use flight for leisure. Let's say Blizzard instead allowed flight but had demons shoot you down from the sky when you're in the air for more than 15 seconds. It wouldn't be a good incentive for ground travel, it would only add confusion and frustration for flight. In this case, I'm sure many would believe gating and unlocking unrestricted flight would be better than having demons shooting you down in every zone. A negative experience is far worse than an absence of one.

[MoanaLisa]

I hate to be that guy, but I don't post often and am genuinely curious.
Is there no option to ignore a thread? I see this thread pop up in the activity feed all the time and I just don't get why it needs 500+ pages. Same for WoD's flying thread back during the expac, even after flying was obtainable.

You could just not open the thread or post in it. As to something that let's you take it out of the thread list, no, that's not possible.

[Zalamander]

Now here's an opinion:
More than I've noticed in other expansions, I love how much of Legion's environments feel like they were real landscapes, and when the Elves, Vykrul, etc. came, they built their temples and villages around that land.
The environments feel great to traverse, with the perfect amount of inconvenience (ignoring the Archeology points put right on top of locations with many hostile, elite, patrolling enemies. Seriously, fuck those. That's an Archeology problem, not a flying/environment problem).

I can ensure you that no one in this threat wants to take away that experience from you and most are very fine with experiencing it a couple of time while leveling up as well.
But I'm pretty sure that this thread will be lively until blizzard do something or at least say something.

[MasterHamster]

A change in flight mechanics to make it more dangerous will not favour those who use flight for leisure. Let's say Blizzard instead allowed flight but had demons shoot you down from the sky when you're in the air for more than 15 seconds. It wouldn't be a good incentive for ground travel, it would only add confusion and frustration for flight. In this case, I'm sure many would believe gating and unlocking unrestricted flight would be better than having demons shooting you down in every zone. A negative experience is far worse than an absence of one.

The talk about making flight 'dangerous' is little but a response to the unavoidable counter-point that flight in WoW as-is, is near guaranteed safety and lack any form of gameplay other than aiming for yellow arrows. However, I think SirCowdog at least should be commended because he, most of the time, comes with a more balanced approach and obviously genuinely wants to make flight interesting. However, I think he's a bit disingenuous when he argues that 'there was little to no complaints about flight', as if players are keen to complain about things that are beneficial to them in a progression-based game, and there's little doubt that if flight also "suffered" from the "tediums" that ground travel entails, we'd instead see people complaining that once again Blizzard is trying to 'slow people down'. And a lot of it from people that otherwise are perfectly fine with how flight is handled in Legion.

I find it mostly amusing, since this is being supported by people that think Daze and having to take minor detours to traverse terrain is Blizzard's evil scheme to prolong content, and is frustrating and tedious, but getting dismounted in midair and forced to land with a parachute apparently isn't. Having to avoid flying demons trying to shoot you down is fine, but avoiding ground mobs with nets, daze and stuns on the ground apparently is not. In short, the support for making flight dangerous, at least in this thread, appears as little but an argument for arguments sake.

Blizzard has made it clear that they regard and treat flight as a convenience perk for when players have grown accustomed to the new expansion and a growing ratio of players time is spent on alts. That they think flight is too powerful to be made available early, and that they want the base experience to approach world content is on the ground, and the means of travel around it like FPs, kites and hearths/teleports. Some people disagree with this. But to some, that means the decision is also objectively wrong. The thing is... is that this topic is essentially over. It's no more relevant than CRZ, but there are people that wants to keep that topic alive forever too.

Blizzard has made it clear how they want to handle flight, and the only thing we don't know yet is when Pathfinder part 2 is released (because they don't want to disclose exactly when because then it's a PROMISE) or exactly how much effort p2 requires. From what they've said, part 1 is a clear majority of the time/effort required, but as long as it's not disclosed, people are free to conjure whatever they like. No lack of theories that part 2 will be 'worse' than 1. Or even more than 2 parts. With no other evidence to support that other than pure skepticism.

So flight is being made available sometime mid-expansion, after some effort to unlock it, as the expansion transitions more and more into alts and additional raids and other instanced content, and maybe additional island zones. There's little more to be said, really.

[Deleted]

The talk about making flight 'dangerous' is little but a jab at Blizzard's laziness (..not wanting to do something is lazy..) and to handle the unavoidable counter-point that flight in WoW is near guaranteed safety and lack any form of gameplay other than aiming for yellow arrows. However, I think SirCowdog at least should be commended because he comes with a more balanced approach and obviously genuinely wants to make flight interesting. However, I think there's little doubt that if flight also "suffered" from the "tediums" that ground travel entails, we'd instead see people complaining that once again Blizzard is trying to 'slow people down'.

I find it mostly amusing, since this is being supported by people that think Daze and having to take minor detours to traverse terrain is Blizzard's evil scheme to prolong content, and is frustrating and tedious, but getting dismounted in midair and forced to land with a parachute apparently isn't. Having to avoid flying demons trying to shoot you down is fine, but avoiding ground mobs with nets, daze and stuns on the ground apparently is not. In short, the support for making flight dangerous, at least in this thread, appears as little but an argument for arguments sake.

Blizzard has made it clear that they regard and treat flight as a convenience perk for when players have grown accustomed to the new expansion and a higher amount of time is spent on alts than mains. That they think flight is too powerful to be made available early. Some people disagree with this. But to some, that means the decision is also objectively wrong. The thing is... is that this topic is essentially over. It's no more relevant than CRZ, but there are people that wants to keep that topic alive forever too.

Blizzard has made it clear how they want to handle flight, and the only thing we don't know yet is when Pathfinder part 2 is released (because they don't want to disclose exactly when because then it's a PROMISE) or exactly how much effort p2 requires. From what they've said, part 1 is a clear majority of the time/effort required, but as long as it's not disclosed, people are free to conjure whatever they like. No lack of theories that part 2 will be worse than 1. With no other evidence to support that other than pure skepticism.

So flight is being made available sometime mid-expansion, after some effort to unlock it, as the expansion transitions more and more into alts and additional raids and other instanced content, and maybe additional island zones. There's little more to be said, really.

These suggestions are made extra for people who say that flying must be removed from WoW because it makes travel irrelevant, meaningless and removes all danger from the world. Were you not one of these people?

I want flying back as it was, and I want to spice it up in selected max level / endgame areas like we have had some in TBC, but just normal air travel everywhere else.

This is not easy to make in a situation like we have in Legion, where many of leveling quest are rehashed as world quests for endgame content, thus giving the devs the excuse why we cannot have flight anywhere. But on the other hand, they give us a whistle, which is even more potent that personal flight, and don't seem to have a problem with that. This is pure hypocrisy.

For me, to have a "player vs. terrain" approach to be enjoyable, they have to update the engine and game mechanics to at least the level we have had in the original "Tomb Raider" game, where you have way better jump & run mechanics, are able to climb etc. Or at least the gameplay we have in GW2. WoW is clumsy, clunky, and much less responsive to keyboard commands. Also, they would have to design the terrain in a consistent way, where you can predict from the slope if you can get up a hill or not.

As long as they don't invest into this part of the engine, I will stay adamant on my pro-flight position.

[Mafic]

I hate to be that guy, but I don't post often and am genuinely curious.
Is there no option to ignore a thread? I see this thread pop up in the activity feed all the time and I just don't get why it needs 500+ pages. Same for WoD's flying thread back during the expac, even after flying was obtainable.

Now here's an opinion:
More than I've noticed in other expansions, I love how much of Legion's environments feel like they were real landscapes, and when the Elves, Vykrul, etc. came, they built their temples and villages around that land.
The environments feel great to traverse, with the perfect amount of inconvenience (ignoring the Archeology points put right on top of locations with many hostile, elite, patrolling enemies. Seriously, fuck those. That's an Archeology problem, not a flying/environment problem).

So, more than WoD, why the superfluous discussion?
These environments are better designed and more beautiful than ever before, so why?
I do not understand how flying can be so controversial.
It is a nonessential convenience, nothing more.

You can't say the Broken Isles is designed better and ignore High Mountain for example Broken Isles has the same design issues that WoD has as it is small, cramped and designed like a maze.

This is why restricting flight and making it maze like will always cause disagreement with the future of world design, exploration, and travel. The existence of a flight whistle is a blatant waving of a white flag that even one portion of the devs know the terrain is difficult to traverse continuously for players.

The worst part of it all is that there is no future addition to Legion's Broken Isles that can justify the restriction of flight as the zones are cramped and largely irrelevant as we head into month 2 off the expansion.

[Incarnia]

What you're describing is exactly the type of investment that prevents people from viewing the game more critically or objectively. They are not just making a decision to not pay for a part of the game they disagree with, they're making a decision to give up on upwards of 12 YEARS of invested time, effort, and emotional investment in their characters and the game. (this is why I find the response of "If you don't like it then leave" to be so asinine)

I personally think Blizzard banks a lot of their changes on the idea that people won't give up on their investment. They know they can push the envelope while experimenting with new ideas, even if they're bad ideas, because not only will people not leave, but many fans will automatically leap to their defense without thinking(for the exact same reasons!).

This is also why I dislike the argument that "Most people aren't saying anything because they're just enjoying the game".

I agree. Would this be any other game I wouldn't bat an eye over deciding to stop playing, it would have been a very easy decision. I've told most of my friends by now that I'm going to take a break, and they don't want me to leave. I want to play, they want me to play but if I do I will end up exasperated af. "Just leave" - no, it is not that simple. I grew up with WoW, it changed my life in so many ways and I've met people I otherwise never would have (Husband included). It is NOT easy.

Now, I didn't exactly like WoD. I actually rate it as the worst expansion of all (so far). But I had alts, did some HC puging and gold farming (made easy by Garrison) to entertain me with - and had quite an okay time with collecting t-mogs, something I never cared much about before.
I missed farming herbs/ores, pet battles and archaeology ofc - but Garrison/Shipyard and min-maxing those over multiple chars became a substitute for all of that that I missed. I had no reason to step outside and hence the lack of flight felt sad, but not so in your face like it feels in Legion.

When they did announce "no flight ever" I did cancel sub - told them what I was displeased about in WoD. How I felt it unacceptable the way they've been communicating with their costumers. How I didn't support their vision of how a WoW without flight would be better. I re-subbed when they revoked that decision, and unsubbed again when it became apparent that it wasn't just a "flip of the switch" as they had claimed. Came back when flight was obtainable in-game. Those decisions didn't feel easy either, but they were no where near being as difficult to make as this time around.

This is also why I dislike the argument that "Most people aren't saying anything because they're just enjoying the game"

I dislike that argument too. Sometimes I wish they would send out polls to gather information from their costumers. A rating poll from 1-5 (fex) with the option to leave shorter comments. I'm quite dedicated and invested as a costumer, I would happily leave that sort of feedback - trying to get attention through their official forums is such a gamble. Besides, I'm generally not interested in having to "fight" with other people over having different opinions/feelings.

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Can i have your stuff? :-D i am always close to be broke.
Just joking... don't even know what to do with gold. What could you do with gold if you are not even playing the game :-)

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I'm short on time today so I apologize for not addressing everything you wrote.

You can never have too much gold It is a great thing to have when leveling alts, and maintaining said alts. For example, when I level an alt late into the expansion I don't want to spend unnecessary time gearing it up to the current tier. Instead I want to play it in the current tier as quickly as possible, so I pay for gear boosts. I spent around 2m gold in WoD gearing up alts using that method. So, do I come back I will have great use for the gold I farm right now! And even if I end up not coming back in Legion, I will still have use for the gold if I come back later in another expansion.

[Deleted]

I don't think there are any "no fly" people as you put it. I'm certainly going to fly and enjoy it when the final part of Pathfinder is released, but at the moment I'm enjoying the content that has been designed to be tackled from the ground.

But I am on the ground when I do quests... And I have already did my exploration, even the freaking Kosumoth attunemen chain BEFORE they patched the orbs. There is nothing left to be enjoyed on the ground.

I would not mind if they keep Suramar City a no-flying zone as long as there is this shield. Would be the same thing as having TI or IoT. But everything else is pointless already. And in dungeons and raids, flying is not an issue, anyway.

Also, no-flying cannot distract me from the fact that the zones ARE very small. The only thing which extends my travels from flight-master to the quest objective is the convoluted road design, which is especially a nightmare in High Mountain. I bet, Legion has the smallest zones ever released in an expansion.

[Mafic]

I have to disagree strongly here. How many people complained about the kaliri birds or anti air cannons in TBC? Certainly a handful, but nowhere near the same levels as surrounding the complete blanket suppression of flying.

How much complaining was there about flying in the previous years leading up to WoD? Almost non-existent outside of some pvp servers, and not even very many of them.

Yup I agree 100%.

This is why BC had it all right, because there was a penalty for AFKing above certain areas with a flying mount. In fact, you can still be dismounted in WoD by flying targets, but people are prone to ignore that little factoid when discussing flying in regards to how it is designed in WoD and past expansions.

[ElDoorO]

I really wish at the very least they'd have a "Tome of All Flight Paths" as an interim until flying happens. This tome could require max level and be sold for a few hundred gold and is account wide. I'd be so happy.

[Deleted]

I really wish at the very least they'd have a "Tome of All Flight Paths" as an interim until flying happens. This tome could require max level and be sold for a few hundred gold and is account wide. I'd be so happy.

Id settle for a straight ******* line between where I am and where I want to go.

[SirCowdog]

However, I think he's a bit disingenuous when he argues that 'there was little to no complaints about flight', as if players are keen to complain about things that are beneficial to them in a progression-based game, and there's little doubt that if flight also "suffered" from the "tediums" that ground travel entails, we'd instead see people complaining that once again Blizzard is trying to 'slow people down'. And a lot of it from people that otherwise are perfectly fine with how flight is handled in Legion.

I'm not being disingenuous at all, because that implies that I'm trying to be insincere or dishonest, which I'm not. I said little to no complaints about flying to put it in perspective, because that's what they are relative to the level of argument that surrounds the no-flying debacle of WoD.

Would people complain if there were trash mobs and dazing/dismounting scattered everywhere in the air without thought, in a blanket attempt to slow people down like it is on the ground? Yes, almost certainly. But that's not what I've been suggesting at all, which you would know if you were actually trying to understand my points.

I've said several times that I only believe anti-air mechanics such as harpoon NPCs or patrolling dragons should be used sparingly around specific quest areas, EXACTLY like the anti-illusion NPCs are being used on the ground in Suramar, or the cannons in Ogri-la, or the Kaliri Birds in Skettis. That they should be used in a mixed fashion with both ground AND air designed quest areas so that everyone gets something of what they want. Are any of those things scattered EVERYWHERE in their respective expansions in the way that daze is used everywhere? No!

Generally speaking it's only been the people who are trying very VERY hard to create flaws in the arguments for Flying that come up with these ridiculous scenarios where anything to do with flying is blown out of proportion in order to make the arguments look worse than they really are. If anyone is being disingenuous, it's people like that.

I find it mostly amusing, since this is being supported by people that think Daze and having to take minor detours to traverse terrain is Blizzard's evil scheme to prolong content, and is frustrating and tedious, but getting dismounted in midair and forced to land with a parachute apparently isn't. Having to avoid flying demons trying to shoot you down is fine, but avoiding ground mobs with nets, daze and stuns on the ground apparently is not. In short, the support for making flight dangerous, at least in this thread, appears as little but an argument for arguments sake.

Case in point. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you've simply continued to misunderstand and misinterpret the arguments being made.

It's not necessarily that people LIKE dazing, but simply to point out that because people are constantly using the ground design as an example of amazing content(which includes dazing), that similarly amazing design should be possible in the air as well. But every time something like that is suggested, even in small amounts around a specifically limited quest are, it gets twisted in exactly the same manner that you just did.

Blizzard has made it clear that...

I'm not arguing with Blizzard. I'm having a discussion with players who are interested in the topic, on either side of the argument. The entire line of "It's Blizzard's game and they can do what they want with it" is getting old. It's a cop out when you don't have an argument or opinion of your own. If you want to talk about why you think Blizzard's decision is right or wrong, fine. But if you're just going to ignore everything except what Blizzard says, and claim the discussion is over, then you might as well not even post. We can get that info in Blue.

[xanzul]

You could just not open the thread or post in it. As to something that let's you take it out of the thread list, no, that's not possible.

It is pretty damn sad when even the mods start trolling. The person you replied to posted an on topic response to this thread after the part you quoted and you posted this nonsense and completely ignored his response. Also I find it rich how you infract me for pointing out trolling rather than reporting it when you yourself basically said this thread exists to contain the more extremist pro flyers so they can do their trolling here instead of other threads. So they can troll here and generally not be infracted for it but anyone pointing it out gets infracted? Seriously? Is this really how Curse wants forums on their sites moderated?

Infracted: Discussion of moderation in public threads is against the rules as you well know. {MoanaLisa}