In SirCoWDog's defense, his suggestions on improvement were in response to the criticism on flight being non-interactive or avoiding the world. He's saying if people have criticism that 'flight takes away interaction from the world', then let's talk about integrating flight in a meaningful way. It's not about wanting flight to become a flight simulator, it's a response to 'flight isn't interactive and taking it away makes the game better'.
The end goal is having flight, whether it means changing or improving the system or letting things stay the same. The message has been twisted because so many conversations are happening at once, and things get taken out of context. A suggestion to improve the system suddenly gets seen by someone else as a mandatory need for change. If you have any criticism on flight becoming more like a flight sim, then realize that it originated from criticism of flight not being interactive enough to be worth keeping.
Also, most of my points are in response, and to refute, the ridiculous claims that flight is responsible for all the evils of wow. Most of my suggestions are aimed at proving those claims false, not necessarily because they are things which I want, or demand, to see implemented in the game. They're merely to show that flight CAN be used in a responsible fashion that doesn't break the game in the ways which people seem to think it does.
We will be getting flight regardless, it's only a matter of when.
So if there is criticism that flight will make the Broken Shore seem smaller, I think that is fair criticism for Blizzard's own level design and choice to make the world smaller, rather than the vast landscapes like we had with Wrath and Cata. I understand that Blizzard wants to focus on shorter dev times and more focused content and that is probably why zones are smaller in comparison than the archaic zones they had in the past, but if they aren't sticking to their guns of completely removing flight, then they're saying they're okay with people seeing the Broken Shore as being small (when flight is unlocked).
Yeah that is the problem we are sacrificing flight for a thing that makes the game even worse. I don't mean that its bad with more content but normally flight wouldn't have to be sacrificed for more content.
It's this detailed linear story based content however that is the reason they don't want us to fly. Sadly that kind of content is terrible for the game and not fitting for an MMO regardles of flight. It's creating an illusion of being good at the start but think of the down sides in the long run. This kind of content takes lot of development time to keep fresh. Its consumed very fast and have practically zero re-play ability value. Yet, they force us to play through all of it again and again with every character before it becomes "completed".(unlock 3rd socket on artifact) Thats the main reason this expansion is extremely alt-unfriendly tho flying or not. The direction towards being an single player game is very bad for WoW. It was bad in WoD it will be bad in Legion, it already looks like it will be even worse than WoD.
First, how do you know flying makes it seem much smaller if we can't fly in the Broken Isles? Second, maybe Broken Isles seems much smaller because it IS much smaller?
Also...consider your words just now. "A world that you have to explore." Do we, really? Is it really necessary for everyone to poke their noses into every corner of the word, even if they have no interest in doing so? This is the main problem I see with Blizzard's entire approach to the open world: The assumption that there is only one way to play the open world, and that limiting player choice to only that one way makes the game better. How do we know if that's actually true or not? When there's only one choice, there's nothing to refute it. And that is a very VERY corrupt source of data.
because you can fly in the broken isles... its called using glider+ emerald winds
also the place is very small, but the verticallity of it makes it feel much larger
and yes it really is, world of warcraft is about the world, and if they dont care about people exploring, finding treasures and rares, the game would be nothing liek it is, the wolrd feels alive
The point I'm getting at is that there is a difference between "caring about people exploring" and not giving players any choice in the matter. And there's also the misconception that exploration can only be done from the ground floor.
I will freely admit that a large part of the problem is created the disparity between flying and ground movement. Flying is far too powerful when placed in the current ground-centric design. We've talked about LOTS of ways to address that disparity, from changing how flying itself works, to anti-flight hazards, to more air-based environments. There's no real need to go back into each of those in detail, but I want people to take note of how EVERY suggestion on how to remedy the situation is generally met with either "That's not what wow is" or "That's not what Blizzard wants the game to be". Despite those things being part of WoW in the past.
All I'm really saying is that maybe people should be a little more critical of the direction Blizzard is taking the game. As Aristotle said: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." So...for just a little while, entertain the thought that flying isn't the source of the issues, and that there might be ways to create the things you enjoy about WoW without removing it.
Make your own decision. Don't just accept it because the idea was first introduced in Blue.
The problem is that with flight enabled you are always flying.
"Flying" is your normal status.
You fly from mob to mob, you cast your flying mount as soon as you kill something, you stay airborn when afk.
The ground is only populated for 10 seconds, the time it takes to kill a monster.
It's just not immersive at all. The ground becomes something outdated and a rare place to be at all.
You quickly disregard any kind of design of the world with the ability to fly
Not to mention that the ground world becomes a mini game with world PvP enabled
anti flight hazards, no one likes those, they have gotten hundreds of thousands of complaints of "im flying then im suddenly shot down from the sky wtf!!??!?"
changing how flying works is pretty much impossible with how the movment in the engine works, and would require a INSANE amount of work to change it
air based enviroments just is ground enviroments that you have to fly from one to another...
as said before, the game doesent even work with jumping well, the game doesent even really need jumping, but if it was removed people would freak, even though its pretty much never actuallty needed in the game
Also exactly what is said above me
once you can fly, the ground becomes a annoyance, and you spend more time in the air, then on the ground...
Sorry if it seems like I'm hounding this thread. Crazy storms here, and the power to my house keeps shutting off, meaning I can't keep myself entertained with the computer. The phone becomes my outlet. And let me tell you, editing your post with bold stuff, to make a point, was a feat of strength. The fact that you play the game in a certain way does not necessarily mean that other people do as well.
However, I won't deny that flight in its current form is VERY open to abuse when the world-design ignores that it exists. This is the point I keep coming back to, and one that people always seem to glaze over. We've been over ways to mitigate or solve the problems that flight creates, and not all of them require massive overhauls or drastic changes to the game design.
I'd like to point out things like the wandering T-rex in vanilla Ungoro, Fel Reavers in TBC, and the Giants in WotLK, or other similar mobs that were put into the world to prevent AFKing(and also to help combat bots). These were not over-used, and were actually quite easy to avoid as long as you were paying attention. They added a little bit of flavor to the zones, as well as creating some very memorable situations. Couldn't something like that be added to the air to help with the AFK problem of the air?
The problem of abusing flight to hop quickly from one mob to the next is something I've been trying to solve for quite awhile now. Mostly it comes down to the simple fact that a flying mount is just faster than anything else. I've suggested in the past that ground and air mounts really should be brought more into line with each other. Either by giving ground mounts additional speed or abilities to make them a more attractive alternative to flying, or to slow down flying or add actual movement controls that make flight a little more difficult to control(Emerald Winds + Gliding is one example).
Things like anti-air canons or harpooning/sniping NPCs which only target flying players is another option, although one with less finesse.
Scattering more indoor areas, or pocket realms like Firelands, into the quest mix is another option. The "Hell" area in Stormpeaks was a pretty good example of this possibility.
Giving flying mounts multiple, limited charges that slowly recover is another option. Several existing class abilities use this mechanic. You can use them all quickly and then have to wait longer for them to recharge, or space them out over time for more consistent use. Potentially make it so that charges only recover while on the ground? This would create strategic use in PVP situations, and is probably the easiest option to implement. It could then be expanded by giving more charges, or faster cooldown on charges via pathfinder-like achievements, or other sources such as research in the order hall.
As for the immersion argument...well...sorry, but each individual person has a different idea of what immersive is. For some people, being the heroic figure who swoops in and strikes down their enemies swiftly and efficiently is what's immersive. Who's right? Both are.
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Can you link me such a post? I know people complain about randomly being dismounted for no reason, and they're right to do so. I've had that happen while gliding in Legion. But I can't think of a single case where someone has complained about being dismounted by an actual flying enemy or anti-air cannon unless they were just playing very badly, or trying to go somewhere they had no business being(like enemy capitals).
I don't agree. Just switch flying mounts to use the vehicle system. Not to mention that Emerald Winds+Gliding is already in the game, working just fine. Impossible? Insane amounts of work? I doubt it. Would it require SOME work? Sure! No question there. But Blizzard has shown a willingness to sink time into improving other areas of the game, from the stats on gear, to the system of drops, to matchmaking, to the appearance of the character engine and skins.
The fact that Flying has not had any improvements done on in since TBC is part of the problem! It's a rusty part that needs oil!
And why is that bad? What is actually wrong with floating fortresses, or airships, or multi-level areas that can only be reached via flying? And wouldn't such areas actually create more opportunities to use class abilities such as gliding, slow fall, leaping, or Blink to be used in clever fashions? People praise the idea of having mountains and cliffs and other obstacles on the ground to try and navigate, but the moment someone suggests the same thing in the air it's bad?
I believe I addressed that well in my response to the original quote you're referencing.
Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-10-16 at 01:44 AM.
@SirCowdog
You have to consider that the world is 99% air and 1% ground.
It's very hard to constantly find different ways to prevent players from flying depending on the location.
And it's true that is how I play when flight is enabled...but is what most people do because flight is just so powerful.
The only reason to not be flying is if for some reason you want to handicap yourself on purpose to enjoy the landscape.
I don't know, it's very hard to balance it. Only some kind of designer master mind can do it.
Why is it hard? With only the few people in this thread we've managed to come up with quite a few perfectly legitimate ways to do that. Blizzard has said that flying(in its current form) causes difficulties for the development of content. Every single point that has brought up about those difficulties has been either mitigated or shown to actually be a problem of perception instead of a technical one.
So why is it so impossible or difficult to do?
I don't believe this is true. Flying was not a problem until someone at Blizzard decided to MAKE it a problem. Lets not sit here and ignore that WoW had flying for nearly 8 years without the game breaking, and that was without flying getting any significant change to the way it works.
It doesn't require a mastermind to fix these issues. And even if it did, are you seriously going to ask me to believe that the people at Blizzard(the current top developer of MMOs in the WORLD) aren't masters of their craft?
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Oh, you mean exactly like how people do right now by using a FP to an area, gliding to a target, then using the whistle to instantly escape? Captain Hypocrisy....GOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
1. nah, i rather not go looking back to wrath forums to try anfd find such posts
2. if mounts just became gliders everyone would complain, and how would making them vehicles change them in any way?
3. 1, because you might as well reach them using ground mounds, and 2, the people praise cliffs and obstacles because without flying, those people who have slow fall and glide get to use it, but once you have flying everyone is the same
4.
The recurring problem is that there is no reason to gate the world given their heavy focus on instanced content even at the start of expansions. Patch 7.1? Instanced Kara. Afterwards for the new year? Instanced Nighthold. Currently? Instanced EN.
At some point Blizzard is going to have to come clean as to why they think gating flying is a good idea when they cut and run on world content within one month of the launch of Legion.
The devs knows this. The players know this. Even pepperidge farm knows this.
As for druid travel form I do not see how that is a problem as they allowed people to interact with the world on their ground mounts in Nagrand and have combat on their ground mounts in Nagrand.
1) I was just curious, because I hadn't seen those kinds of reactions before
2) Does everyone complain about Demon Hunter gliding? Regardless, my point was not necessarily to cut and paste the mechanics of gliding+emerald winds directly onto flying mounts, but rather to show how a change to flying is maybe not as impossible or as difficult to pull off as people seem to think. If you haven't noticed already, I tend to use things which are already in the game as a baseline for speculation and possibilities. It's a point of reference. I try not to get too far away from that baseline, because people will inevitably tell me that I'm not a Blizz dev and I don't know what I'm talking about. But if I can point to something that's already in the game, it's much harder to refute.
The vehicle system mostly just allows for more flexibility. It's a platform that would allow more leeway to control how flight is used than the current mechanics of flying mounts.
"Might as well?" Why? What if the player prefers or enjoys flying?
Alright, I can understand wanting to have the feeling of being unique. But lets put that into the context of ground mounts. Some people have leaps, blinks, passive speed increases, or sprints. Do ground mounts invalidate those? Do those abilities become less because everyone is the same on a ground mount? And if we throw in the idea of making the choice between a flying or ground mount a semi-permanent decision such as Order Hall traits, or talents, then what class abilities characters has can influence that decision. Ultimately the player would get to better customize their own chosen playstyle.
Keep in mind, also, that I am not proposing that flight be enabled EVERYWHERE. There should be some areas that use flight and are multi-tiered, some which have flight restricted, some which have hazards, and with caves/indoor areas mixed throughout. Variety is the key. In such a theoretical design, the ground content will still be there in equal amounts as this theoretical air content(floating islands or whatever). If it's done correctly, there will be enough situational opportunities to use class abilities such as gliding and/or slow falls no matter what type of terrain you find yourself in.
And lets not forget that we've had all the content between TBC and WoD where this was not actually a problem. While I admit there may be some newer players that could get a little butthurt about flying supposedly detracting from their class abilities, I do not believe it would be a serious issue. Not only that, but you have to weigh that potential complaint against all the people asking for flying.
I was pointing out how hypocritical it was that the devs claim they don't want people hopping around then flying away, when they're already letting people do that. It's one of their prime excuses for why flight was restricted, and yet they're effectively still letting players do the same thing, going as far as to provide tools to accomplish it.
Last edited by SirCowdog; 2016-10-16 at 05:01 AM.