[Guardian] Legion Discussion

[xskarma]

You forgot the most important one - the sea lion dash!

I did forget about that one!


My main gripe with Moonfire right now is that it feels wrong to be multidotting as a tank AND more importantly, the fact Moonfire still has a facing requirement.
It drove me nuts all through Val'Shara that if a mob ended up behind me (when coralling multiple mobs or when they inevitably move in odd ways and end up behind you) I'd get a facing error. It's all fine and dandy that a ranged char has a facing requirement, since they have plenty of room to make sure they face whatever they're shooting, but as a tank, even the slightest movement will put mobs behind you.


I know Affliction dots have no facing requirement so if they are going to shove this Moonfire thing down our throat then at let them make it have no facing requirement anymore.

My main gripe though is with the loss of Faerie fire we have no short CD ranged silence anymore. There's tons of instances where silencing a caster mob so it comes over to where you are tanking other mobs is godly. Even as a ranged pull it's MUCH better than Moonfire since most caster mobs will just stay where they are and immediately start casting when pulled, making it that much easier for cleave to hit possibly CC'd mobs. With a silenced pull they skip that and come to you and out of the way of CC'd mobs.

TL;DR: I still don't like Moonfire

[Dreyen]

I dont get this rotation at all, I dont understand why they gave lacerate a cooldown, and a 3 second one at that. Why bother? It doesnt add anything other than introducing more dead gcds.

There are zero dead GCDs. Moonfire is your filler. If anything, this is one of the most complex rotations to min-max we've had in awhile... Mostly because moonfire does more damage than lacerate though.

And yeah Xskarma, priest dots can be fired without facing the mob either, it really sucks. Multidotting isn't really new though if you consider multidotting lacerate in wod.

[Bearshield]

It also doesn't do damage except in Bear form, and you're somehow killing people with illusory butterflies. I think Moonfire is the better option, and it is a spell all Druids have had since Vanilla. Also seems like they generally want to integrate the celestial theme more into all Druids.

If I recall correctly, we've always had FF as well, it just used to be FF and FF Feral, and it didn't used to do damage. Think it may actually have been a talent at one time. That was a quality of life change to help us tag mobs in form back toward the end of TBC. Either way, I don't understand all this moonfire and galactic guardian stuff for bears.

- - - Updated - - -

I did forget about that one!


My main gripe with Moonfire right now is that it feels wrong to be multidotting as a tank AND more importantly, the fact Moonfire still has a facing requirement.
It drove me nuts all through Val'Shara that if a mob ended up behind me (when coralling multiple mobs or when they inevitably move in odd ways and end up behind you) I'd get a facing error. It's all fine and dandy that a ranged char has a facing requirement, since they have plenty of room to make sure they face whatever they're shooting, but as a tank, even the slightest movement will put mobs behind you.


I know Affliction dots have no facing requirement so if they are going to shove this Moonfire thing down our throat then at let them make it have no facing requirement anymore.

My main gripe though is with the loss of Faerie fire we have no short CD ranged silence anymore. There's tons of instances where silencing a caster mob so it comes over to where you are tanking other mobs is godly. Even as a ranged pull it's MUCH better than Moonfire since most caster mobs will just stay where they are and immediately start casting when pulled, making it that much easier for cleave to hit possibly CC'd mobs. With a silenced pull they skip that and come to you and out of the way of CC'd mobs.

TL;DR: I still don't like Moonfire

I hope you guys are voicing this stuff on the Blizz forums as well because they need to see it. They said when they split feral in MoP, it would allow them to balance the specs better and give both specs the tools needed to do their jobs and BOTH specs have definitely lost much more than they gained in that split.

On the subject of multiple mobs, is that essentially what we're dealing with now that Thrash has a cd? Tab moonfiring everything?

[Dreyen]

Pretty much. Feels like the pattern for bears at Blizzard was:

WoD: need to prune, lets remove swipe and keep thrash. let's make it no cd so they can spam aoe like they always could.
Legion: Shit people are complaining about spamming trash and lacerate, let's put cds on them. Oops we forgot to add something to compensate for the lack of aoe now.

[celinamuna]

Pretty much. Feels like the pattern for bears at Blizzard was:

WoD: need to prune, lets remove swipe and keep thrash. let's make it no cd so they can spam aoe like they always could.
Legion: Shit people are complaining about spamming trash and lacerate, let's put cds on them. Oops we forgot to add something to compensate for the lack of aoe now.

Tbh, i didn't feel lack of AoE on beta. Between Lunar Beam (yes it has cd, it is still very nice), being able to easily get a bunch of targets quickly with moonfire, and Thrash still not having that long of a cd, I can't think of any places where it felt really bad. Worst case scenario i was able to just incarn into thrash spam followed by mangle cleave spam.

P.S. Moonfire is great.

P.P.S. Feral affinity + swipe, checkmate atheists.

[enak101]

I definitely felt the lack of AoE, not often exactly but plenty of times where mobs aggro and thrash has 3-4 seconds on cd. You know its a bit stupid if you are using incap roar to buy time till thrash comes back up just to get threat.

[huth]

P.P.S. Feral affinity + swipe, checkmate atheists.

Cat Form Swipe, that is.

[celinamuna]

Cat Form Swipe, that is.

Hey, it worked on operator with hotw + berserking.

Plus our amazeballs mastery still works.

[huth]

Hey, it worked on operator with hotw + berserking.

Plus our amazeballs mastery still works.

"Worked". It no longer does. There's only Cat Form Swipe, which costs energy.

[Ozzayel]

So I did the Guardian Druid Artifact quest the other day and wondered if the spec was completely bugged out for anyone else.
Throughout the scenario and fighting waves of trash, abilities that had the marker 'required bear form' would just stop working randomly.
No errors, nothing in the combat log, they didn't go on cd... they literally just did nothing. Changing out and back into Bear didn't help. I could spam them 10 times a sec and just nada.

At one point on the final two waves of the scenario all of them were bugged and I could only use the couple offensive abilities that don't have that bear form marker.
They would just start and stop working randomly, it did kinda seem like the talent incarnation for the improved bear form would sometimes trigger them to work again for a little while but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway was a very frustrating experience at the moment.
I see some people talking about the 25 day cd issue but that wasn't happening (did have that on other chars though).

[celinamuna]

"Worked". It no longer does. There's only Cat Form Swipe, which costs energy.

Which is same as hotw + berserking.
You have enough energy for 3 globals, which is about how long you need to do it for.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

So I did the Guardian Druid Artifact quest the other day and wondered if the spec was completely bugged out for anyone else.
Throughout the scenario and fighting waves of trash, abilities that had the marker 'required bear form' would just stop working randomly.
No errors, nothing in the combat log, they didn't go on cd... they literally just did nothing. Changing out and back into Bear didn't help. I could spam them 10 times a sec and just nada.

At one point on the final two waves of the scenario all of them were bugged and I could only use the couple offensive abilities that don't have that bear form marker.
They would just start and stop working randomly, it did kinda seem like the talent incarnation for the improved bear form would sometimes trigger them to work again for a little while but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway was a very frustrating experience at the moment.
I see some people talking about the 25 day cd issue but that wasn't happening (did have that on other chars though).

Seems like something you might want to post on the official bug report forums.

[Deleted]

There are zero dead GCDs. Moonfire is your filler. If anything, this is one of the most complex rotations to min-max we've had in awhile... Mostly because moonfire does more damage than lacerate though.

And yeah Xskarma, priest dots can be fired without facing the mob either, it really sucks. Multidotting isn't really new though if you consider multidotting lacerate in wod.

While there are no dead GCDs, with the current state of Alpha Guardian Moonfire is in fact not your filler because Ion Cannon is a fundamentally broken artifact trait. Instead you Thrash on single-target when you can't do anything else.

I expect this to change of course because 50 rage every 12 seconds per Moonfire target with no apparent diminishing returns is completely and utterly broken, but that's the current state - Moonfire has to be allowed to expire before reapplication or you miss out on ridiculous amounts of rage. Ironfur/Mark of Ursol are effectively passives in practice with Ion Cannon as it stands right now, and that's on a single target.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

While there are no dead GCDs, with the current state of Alpha Guardian Moonfire is in fact not your filler because Ion Cannon is a fundamentally broken artifact trait. Instead you Thrash on single-target when you can't do anything else.

I expect this to change of course because 50 rage every 12 seconds per Moonfire target with no apparent diminishing returns is completely and utterly broken, but that's the current state - Moonfire has to be allowed to expire before reapplication or you miss out on ridiculous amounts of rage. Ironfur/Mark of Ursol are effectively passives in practice with Ion Cannon as it stands right now, and that's on a single target.

I'd rather they just give you 1 rage per moonfire tick or something. Having it drop is just bad gameplay.

[Dreyen]

I'd rather they just give you 1 rage per moonfire tick or something. Having it drop is just bad gameplay.

TBH if it wasn't a rotational ability it wouldn't be too bad. It'd make minmaxing the duration a bit harder than it is right now... But yeah, Ion Cannon needs to change.

[Ryanite]

I've seen a couple of guardian videos but I can't tell, did guardian get updated attack animations? Just seeing all these cool melee animations is a little disheartening having to be in form.

[Kraineth]

I definitely do not like the fact that

1) Moonfire does just as much damage as a 3 stack of lacerate until you get the talent which increases bleed damage
2) Thrash is back on a cooldown (especially since a single stack of lacerate is so weak

I've seen a couple of guardian videos but I can't tell, did guardian get updated attack animations? Just seeing all these cool melee animations is a little disheartening having to be in form.

Not really updated animations like the melee specs, but Mangle has a new animation and it looks like barkskin will as well (currently barkskin has a very very bad visual where it looks like you are covered in oil or something)

I can't remember if it is the same on live, but maul also no longer has that weird animation with all of the translucent bear paws swinging around.

Aside from that our fancy new visuals mainly come from all of the form models.

[Deleted]

I've already posted in the feedback thread on the EU forums that having to multiDoT with Moonfire just to establish AoE threat between Thrash CDs is something that rhymes rather well with "rucking fedarded". Even if Moonfire multiDoTing is currently fucked-up broken due to Ion Cannon (macro Maul to every ability, 100% Ironfur uptime, still cap rage at 3+ targets SeemsGood ) it's ass gameplay, particularly because of the current facing requirements on Moonfire.

But hey, could be worse. Could be warriors with basically no explicit control over the majority of their resource gains!

[Dreyen]

moonfire doing so much damage is probably collateral damage from the last 100% moonfire buff that was probably aimed at boomkin rather than us. It doesn't make sense for moonfire to do more initial damage than lacerate.

And yea Praise. I'd be fine with moonfire being a cleave-ish ability on 2-3 target, but not becoming out main rotation for aoe, it just doesn't feel right. We need swipe or we need thrash back on no cd.

Ion cannon will definitely get changed, it's retarded.

[celinamuna]

It doesn't make sense for moonfire to do more initial damage than lacerate.

Lacerate does more.