[Mage] Legion: General Information and Discussion

[Polarthief]

But Ice Barrier is for arcane too. A buff to it for frost and Cauterizing Blink doesn't make up losing GI.

GI should be given to all 3 specs, give arcane something in traits, and we'll be golden.

[gallamann]

It would be folly for Blizzard to keep writing "x is in the works" because sharing alpha that applies to most of the game and repeating it so often would be a big waste of time.
Blizzard haven't released any patch notes yet, for that exact reason, so there aren't even any notes for them to include it in.

Then don't be bone heads and instead hold off putting GI on Arcane until you have Fire/Frost sorted out.

Just a tad bit of common sense in their communications would be huge.

[KurenaiXIII]

Then don't be bone heads and instead hold off putting GI on Arcane until you have Fire/Frost sorted out.

Just a tad bit of common sense in their communications would be huge.

I think you're confusing MMO-Champion data mining with Blizzard communication.

And why should they limit what they do on one spec until they've 'sorted out' other specs? That's silly. If they know what they want to do for Arcane, they should do it and get it done, not hold off on it for the sake of... I don't know what, even. We may have a window into the design process but we're still on the outside looking in.

[Tirilka]

Weapon animations aren't complex per se, just more art assets. Just like when they convert Frostbolt to Ebonbolt, it's just an art change attached to an action.

Are you kidding? Making a unique animation that has to be fine tuned on EACH race AND gender is somehow equal to simply changing a model of special effect?
Animations are incredibly complex, probably THE most complex out of all art assets - they have to fit the race, fit the flow, the feel, and they have to be juust right. That's why Blizzard is so keen on reusing skeletons - it saves A LOT of time animating.

[Ironsquidlol]

That's why Blizzard is so keen on reusing skeletons - it saves A LOT of time animating.

Which is why it's not really a big deal anymore.

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But Ice Barrier is for arcane too. A buff to it for frost and Cauterizing Blink doesn't make up losing GI.

GI should be given to all 3 specs, give arcane something in traits, and we'll be golden.

Probably will get changed like GI did.

[Tirilka]

Which is why it's not really a big deal anymore.

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Probably will get changed like GI did.

What? Nobody in this discussion made a deal out of reusing skeletons.

[pleblius]

I'm kind of curious as to why more people aren't upset about Cauterizing Blink's functionality. It seems like an awful design idea.

[Shangalar]

I'm kind of curious as to why more people aren't upset about Cauterizing Blink's functionality. It seems like an awful design idea.

We already had a lenghty discussion on the subject, it's on the list.

[Sarm]

But Ice Barrier is for arcane too. A buff to it for frost and Cauterizing Blink doesn't make up losing GI.

GI should be given to all 3 specs, give arcane something in traits, and we'll be golden.

Would giving arcane something else even be necessary? It's already getting that 4 seconds of Blinks on a 1 minute cooldown. And then Greater Invisibility on top of that.

[gallamann]

I think you're confusing MMO-Champion data mining with Blizzard communication.

And why should they limit what they do on one spec until they've 'sorted out' other specs? That's silly. If they know what they want to do for Arcane, they should do it and get it done, not hold off on it for the sake of... I don't know what, even. We may have a window into the design process but we're still on the outside looking in.

Are you being serious? Blizzard knows full well that shit is going to be data minded and published. It is a communication channel they control. Heck you can't even play Arcane, so no need to show GI at this time.

[Komman]

Are you being serious? Blizzard knows full well that shit is going to be data minded and published. It is a communication channel they control. Heck you can't even play Arcane, so no need to show GI at this time.

Contrary to popular belief, Blizzard really doesn't care about using datamining as a channel of communication. If they did, we wouldn't be seeing things like 10 second duration + 10 second cooldown Rune of Power. The only time they care is when it might reveal content that they -really- don't want to be made public yet. Their preferred channel as always, are patch notes, blogs and twitter releases.

Another way of looking at datamining (or as some of us SimC developers call it, client data extraction) is that we're looking over their shoulders as they attempt to write the software. It's not even a very good peek, because their table formats change all the time without any warning. To use the same analogy, it's like we don't even know whether we're reading German or English, until they finish the whole sentence and we realize it doesn't make any sense. Remembering in WoD beta when websites kept publishing that Arcane Blast does 1 damage, when in reality it was 100% spellpower damage? If Blizzard really had intentions of using client data as a communication channel, that kind of thing wouldn't be happening.

[Deleted]

datamining (or as some of us SimC developers call it, client data extraction)

By the way, where can I find out how is the sc_spell_data.inc file autogenerated from client data?


I notice some kind of unspecified python script is called from inside generate.bat..


Ah, it's dbc_extract.py..

[Deleted]

If it's guaranteed to work, sure, but then we have a cheese on a 45s cooldown instead of a 90s/5m cooldown, and that's not what they're going for, remember?

I'd be okay with no Ice Barrier, but Evanesce in it's place if talented.

[Shangalar]

Checking out everything (and slowly preparing a nice post with it) for all three specs and I'm not sure if Fire and Frost will be getting any additional defensive abilities. Arcane does come out on top, but from what I can see:

- Arcane: Ice Barrier, Greater Invisibility, Mage Armor (pvp), Artifact DR, Artifact Evocation buff, level 30 talent
- Fire: Ice Barrier, Molten Armor (pve and pvp), Artifact Molten Armor buff, Artifact healing blink, level 30 talent
- Frost: Ice Barrier, Frost Armor (pvp), Artifact Barrier buff, Artifact DR, level 30 talent

I think Fire and Frost deserve to have one more defensive button, because just for raiding, we have:

Arcane: 2 always useful actives, 1 not always useful active, 1 always useful passive, 1 useless passive, level 30 talent
Fire: 1 always useful active, 1 moderately useful buffed passive, 1 moderately useful active, level 30 talent
Frost: 1 always useful buffed active, 1 always useful passive, 1 useless passive, level 30 talent

There's definitely room for one more. And after some thinking, I believe that the best course would be to make Ice Block baseline, and to make it's current talent simply give it one more charge with possibly some more utility but that's a different discussion. And obviously to remove Shimmer, but that's also a different discussion. By adding Ice Block to all three lists above, Arcane would still be on top (can't go into fair or unfair on this one) and Fire and Frost would have just enough.

This could be a compromise since most people want another defensive for Fire and Frost and to put Ice Block back to being baseline. I honestly doubt there's any chance at all (probability exactly 0, not even 0.01) to give those specs both Greater Invisibility *and* make Ice Block baseline. What are your opinions on this? With a good discussion we can actually make some presentable and constructive conclusions and provide feedback on this topic.

[gallamann]

Contrary to popular belief, Blizzard really doesn't care about using datamining as a channel of communication. If they did, we wouldn't be seeing things like 10 second duration + 10 second cooldown Rune of Power. The only time they care is when it might reveal content that they -really- don't want to be made public yet. Their preferred channel as always, are patch notes, blogs and twitter releases.

Another way of looking at datamining (or as some of us SimC developers call it, client data extraction) is that we're looking over their shoulders as they attempt to write the software. It's not even a very good peek, because their table formats change all the time without any warning. To use the same analogy, it's like we don't even know whether we're reading German or English, until they finish the whole sentence and we realize it doesn't make any sense. Remembering in WoD beta when websites kept publishing that Arcane Blast does 1 damage, when in reality it was 100% spellpower damage? If Blizzard really had intentions of using client data as a communication channel, that kind of thing wouldn't be happening.

Why do people insist on making excuses for Blizzard. They know it is a communication channel, if you folks don't think Blizzard know this, that is amazing.

We even had a tweet regarding invis/GI for Arcane before these notes. Someone at Blizzard pushed that communication without any thought for Fire/Frost mages.

Simply stating Invis remains was sufficient for now. Once they had all 3 specs figured then release that information. There was ZERO reason to release GI now, spell is unchanged and you can't even play Arcane.

There is a HUGE difference between a placeholder and a missing ability. Everyone knows Alpha/Beta exist to balance numbers as much as possible before launch, even then then we always see a few hotfix balance passes after going live. On the other hand, they release information that makes Arcane head and shoulders above the other two specs in survivability while saying nothing about frost/fire.

If they had limited current info to "invis remains", we then have a conversation about how mages in general need better survivability. Instead now we get to spend a month or more pushing for Fire/Frost to receive similar survivability.

[KurenaiXIII]

Why do people insist on making excuses for Blizzard. They know it is a communication channel, if you folks don't think Blizzard know this, that is amazing.

We even had a tweet regarding invis/GI for Arcane before these notes. Someone at Blizzard pushed that communication without any thought for Fire/Frost mages.

Simply stating Invis remains was sufficient for now. Once they had all 3 specs figured then release that information. There was ZERO reason to release GI now, spell is unchanged and you can't even play Arcane.

There is a HUGE difference between a placeholder and a missing ability. Everyone knows Alpha/Beta exist to balance numbers as much as possible before launch, even then then we always see a few hotfix balance passes after going live. On the other hand, they release information that makes Arcane head and shoulders above the other two specs in survivability while saying nothing about frost/fire.

If they had limited current info to "invis remains", we then have a conversation about how mages in general need better survivability. Instead now we get to spend a month or more pushing for Fire/Frost to receive similar survivability.

If Blizzard were worried about things being seen before they were ready they wouldn't be doing betas and would probably handle all development without exposing any of it to the public at all. Yes, they know things will be datamined. That doesn't mean they let it affect what they do or -should- let it affect what they do. I think you have some weird, twisted idea of what the Alpha/Beta are for.

This is not some 30-second trailer preview of something that's already done. This is literally seeing what they are doing as they are doing it. Obviously it's going to be incomplete and things will be missing and not right. I don't know why you think Blizzard is using the datamining as a way to... what? 'unofficially' release information? Obviously they know that their players are going to be hungry for information, but if they waited to show things until they were ready we'd simply have a months-long gap of no information at all.

[Imnick]

They arrange the alpha for their benefit, not ours.
Greater Invisibility is now in the files because the decisions about it had been made.
Withholding spells from the files to prevent them from being data mined hinders the game's development, and doesn't give Blizzard any benefit except that whiny children will scream and cry about the spell not being there, rather than about the spell only being there for one spec.

[Komman]

Why do people insist on making excuses for Blizzard. They know it is a communication channel, if you folks don't think Blizzard know this, that is amazing.

Of course they're aware that client release will be datamined. The point is that in many cases, they don't care, and they have no reason to care. It's like you're trying to read an author writing a novel, and suddenly you start complaining because he jumped to writing a summary of the ending. Is he going to care how you feel, when you chose to peek over his shoulder and look at what he's doing? Of course not.

It's the same in any software development. Snapshots are taken at specific times, and deployments are done with those snapshots. If the code doesn't make it in time, it won't be there. If it means you'll fall through the floor in certain class halls, or certain overpowered buffs seemingly have infinite duration, so be it. Polishing client data and tooltips is the last thing you care about, compared to simply getting work done.

They want GI back for Arcane, if only because it's called "Greater" and fits the spec theme as master of Arcane magic. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that happened is that some developer used "add_specialization_spell_to_spec(MAGE_ARCANE, 110959)", instead of obsessing over minor details. Who cares whether you can play Arcane yet? Who knows what the spell will be like when it goes live? Why would they care about that now?

[Kuni Zyrekai]

And to go back to the original complaint:

Then don't be bone heads and instead hold off putting GI on Arcane until you have Fire/Frost sorted out.

Just a tad bit of common sense in their communications would be huge.

Could it possibly be that they didn't want to make more of a headache for themselves by adding Invisibility back to Fire and not the other two simply because it's the only working spec currently? No. That's stupid, and would incite even more bitching than this has.

[Imnick]

Basically trying to influence community reponse by limiting what is and isn't on alpha is a zero sum game because people will always find some minor complaint to pretend is of extreme importance, and game development is not a clean and linear process, so often half finished spells will be present, and some aspects of some specs will be done before the same aspect in others because of course they will.
Pretending they aren't by excluding them from development builds doesn't help anyone, not Blizzard and also not us.