[Mage] Legion: General Information and Discussion

[Sarm]

It is, but it doesn't sound particularly fun to use either. Not to me, at least.

A rune-type thing would be fine if it was some sort of proper CC spell (although it'd basically be a hunter trap), but an 8 second damaging ability that relies on the target to stay in it is an instant turn-off. It might be usable in guild raid groups, but if I'm going to get a new spell to use, I'd like to enjoy using it in more than just guild raids.

[Imnick]

It does also slow targets within its radius (but it's quite a small radius). Effective circle kiting with Blink and Ice Floes could allow you to keep a target inside it, potentially, though clearly it is more suited to group PvE content. It's a lot of effort on your own.

It's usable in dungeon groups and raids of all kinds though. Again, it is laughable that people keep trying to imply that mobs in dungeons and raids are just running around all the time, because that simply doesn't happen. If you wait like four seconds, the tank will have picked them all up and then they are unlikely to move much until they are dead.
In the case of raid bosses, there are several that move but none that move unexpectedly and are never still for less than 8 seconds every minute.

You are free to dislike the ability but please, stop trying to spread this nonsense.

[Sarm]

Alright, I was wrong to say that it would only work well in guild raid groups. I just don't think it's too much of a stretch to want something to feel good to use when I'm playing solo, though. That was always my main gripe about Rune of Power and Prismatic Crystal and it just seems like a third iteration of something I don't enjoy, which just bums me out.

[Imnick]

The slow helps a little for soloing but it does require you to burn several of your movement cooldowns if you want to keep mobs in it for the full duration, which isn't really feasible to do once a minute. Doable for rares, quest bosses and anything you'd generally bother using Arcane Power on I guess?
Unless you just pop Arcane Power on cooldown because you can, IDK how anyone else tends to play mage while levelling.

It's less restrictive than Rune of Power (You can still move!) but still not really an ability you're going to be using on cooldown while levelling, yeah.

[Invictorum]

Nothing about "put a DoT on the enemy target for 8 seconds once per minute" says "Arcane", but drawing runes on the ground is more thematic.

I literally made an account to respond to this.

Remember how "arcaney" Imperator Mar'Gok was. He had 4 different bombs(these were also called marks and moved with the target). granted he had a rune on the ground as well. But it if we had that rune, we probably wouldn't be talking about this.

[Sarm]

It'd sync up with Displacement but I don't know if the damage it does will be enough to justify blinking back and forth instead of just casting an attack spell instead. As for the slow part, arcane already has the Slow spell for that which makes that part redundant.

The way I usually try to play a mage solo is to gather up as many enemies as I possibly can without dying or having them leash and trying to AoE-kite them around (although it obviously works best as fire at the moment), since I find it a lot of fun over just single targeting everything ad nauseum. With that in mind, the -only- way I can picture the rune actually working is if I had Ice Block up and just sat in it right after rune-ing an enemy as the pack got in my face. But since enemies tend to form a semicircle around you, I don't know how many will remain in range to utilize the second burn and explosion.

If it was ground-targeted, I could at least try to lead the shot like I do with a hardcasted Flamestrike (on live) but since that's not an option, the only way I can see myself getting the most out of it is if I'm fighting an elite and wait to use it until the monster's in melee range, and that doesn't sound like a good idea when I could just ignore the spell altogether and blink around.

[Imnick]

I literally made an account to respond to this.

Remember how "arcaney" Imperator Mar'Gok was. He had 4 different bombs(these were also called marks and moved with the target). granted he had a rune on the ground as well. But it if we had that rune, we probably wouldn't be talking about this.

None of those bombs were DoT spells though, which is what Mark of Aluneth would be if it were a targeted debuff.

[Invictorum]

None of those bombs were DoT spells though, which is what Mark of Aluneth would be if it were a targeted debuff.

Agreed, though now I can't get the thought of having Mar'gok's abilities as an arcane mage out of my head. Could you imagine having arcane wrath?

[Imnick]

Agreed, though now I can't get the thought of having Mar'gok's abilities as an arcane mage out of my head.

I will say I am surprised that Mark of Aluneth doesn't use the same graphics as his runes, and that Arcane still doesn't have access to a version of Force Nova as a hard disengage.

[Seneca]

Are we seriously now at the point where it's restrictive for a DoT effect to last 8 seconds? When it has a 60 second cooldown?
What bizarre other game are you playing?

It's not just a DoT. It's a ground-based one. Flamestrike was never a popular spell for most of the game's life because of this, until the dot was finally changed to stay on the targets instead of remaining on the floor. -Sarm.

My answer would be similar so I do rather copy paste this. Also, the problem is not targeted DoT effects but ground DoT effects, the one the majority hates, no matter the spec, no matter the class, as thousands of posts in both unofficial and official forums can still testify.

Nothing about "put a DoT on the enemy target for 8 seconds once per minute" says "Arcane", but drawing runes on the ground is more thematic.

One could argue that the most "arcanish" part about MoA is doing damage based on the mana you have rather than having ground based effects, atleast, if we want to follow the legion theme of the arcane spec our devs published (mana management).

Also, about

drawing runes on the ground is more thematic

, I am afraid it is not included either in the Legion arcane theme (based on our devs vision) or in the Warcraft lore, considering that Rune Magic is a branch different than Arcane magic, the latter used primarly by arcanists (which we are).

Not that I would not like rune based spells, but they are not particularly supported either by WoW in-game lore or by Warcraft lore.

It would be Living Bomb 2.0. But then again in it's current form MoA isn't that unique and isn't interesting at all since it has no interaction with the rest of our kit.

I mean what's interesting about the current MoA? The difference between ground based MoA and debuff based MoA is that the latter is more reliable and more manageable by our side.

A rune-type thing would be fine if it was some sort of proper CC spell (although it'd basically be a hunter trap), but an 8 second damaging ability that relies on the target to stay in it is an instant turn-off. It might be usable in guild raid groups, but if I'm going to get a new spell to use, I'd like to enjoy using it in more than just guild raids.

Yeah a rune which pushback every enemy who tries to enter inside the rune would be practical and at the same time, give the feel of having a rune based spell.

It's not like I have prejudices against runes...(srsly I do not).

[Imnick]

It's not just a DoT. It's a ground-based one. Flamestrike was never a popular spell for most of the game's life because of this, until the dot was finally changed to stay on the targets instead of remaining on the floor. -Sarm.

My answer would be similar so I do rather copy paste this. Also, the problem is not targeted DoT effects but ground DoT effects, the one the majority hates, no matter the spec, no matter the class, as thousands of posts in both unofficial and official forums can still testify.

I was responding to what you said here.

[No need to go through complicated hoops though, just put the debuff on the target instead of the ground and the spell is fine.]

Yeah nothing impressive really. Maybe duration could also be reduced, to avoid targets dying before 8 sec, but that would be just a welcomed plus (maybe it is just too much to ask for this too, eheh).

In the situation you described, it is not a dot on the ground.

Also, about , I am afraid it is not included either in the Legion arcane theme (based on our devs vision) or in the Warcraft lore, considering that Rune Magic is a branch different than Arcane magic, the latter used primarly by arcanists (which we are).

Runes are very frequently used by both the Blue Dragonflight and Kirin Tor, large and powerful organisations of Arcanists, as well as the Titans, the originators and masters of Arcane power. And Imperator Mar'Gok!

It very clearly is included in the current Arcane theme because:
1) They gave us this spell! For Arcane only! It's an Arcane-exclusive Rune spell, for Arcane Mages! How can rune magic not be part of Blizzard's vision for Arcane Mages if new the power they give us is to create a rune?
2) There are runes all over Arcane's Arcane-exclusive weapon, which is only for Arcanists.

I mean what's interesting about the current MoA? The difference between ground based MoA and debuff based MoA is that the latter is more reliable and more manageable by our side.

What's interesting is that it's a spell type that pretty much nobody else uses, as opposed to what you are proposing it is turned into, a spell type that virtually every class in the game uses. Even with the addition of it pulsing AOE, it's something that several other classes have (including one other spec of this class, something that really should be avoided).
That alone is worth preserving.

[Sarm]

Tanking demon hunters get three runic abilities of their own, and thematically runes are what a death knight unleashes to deal damage. It's not really an arcane-specific thing.

[Imnick]

It's certainly not Arcane-specific, but it's still an Arcane thing. Definitely more so than DoTs, though our talent trees have let us dabble occasionally :P

[Seneca]

In the situation you described, it is not a dot on the ground.

Oh I see. Well as I said that would be a plus, so maybe nothing I would consider worth arguing about.

If you really care I explain myself better, but probably it's nothing we should waste more time on. I guess.

In general, the problem with ground targeted over time effects (among other things), personally speaking, is that the control we have over their outcome is minimal. I don't like the fact that my performance can be influened by random factors, and I, as a developer, theorically speaking, would try to avoid situations where no matter how flawlessly players play, random stuff can fuck you up. In addition, as a developer, I would try to avoid making situational or restrictive spells, above all in a game where there are 100000 things to do.

Runes are very frequently used by both the Blue Dragonflight and Kirin Tor, large and powerful organisations of Arcanists, as well as the Titans, the originators and masters of Arcane power. And Imperator Mar'Gok!

It very clearly is included in the current Arcane theme because:
1) They gave us this spell! For Arcane only! It's an Arcane-exclusive Rune spell, for Arcane Mages! How can rune magic not be part of Blizzard's vision for Arcane Mages if new the power they give us is to create a rune?
2) There are runes all over Arcane's Arcane-exclusive weapon, which is only for Arcanists.

True, but what I meant is that it's not official that the theme of arcanists is creating runes to deal with the enemies. So, yes, they can add rune based spells, as well as they could add space and/or time spells, illusions spells, time based healing spells, tanking spells, etc, but it's not a must because it is not the theme they chose (in our case, mana management).

So, they are forced to add some kind of mana management, because they clearly said arcane is about managing mana.
But it's not necessary to add all the rest, because the theme neither the Warcraft lore says so.

Anyway, I have nothing against runes in general, they are welcomed, if well implemented, like everything else.

Edit: ye basically as you and Sarm said, it's not arcane specific, so it is just a plus as would be something like a Black Hole spell (fitting, but nothing necessarily included and underlined in the Legion arcane lore or Warcraft lore).

What's interesting is that it's a spell type that pretty much nobody else uses, as opposed to what you are proposing it is turned into, a spell type that virtually every class in the game uses. Even with the addition of it pulsing AOE, it's something that several other classes have (including one other spec of this class, something that really should be avoided).
That alone is worth preserving.

If the only thing you are looking for is a spell or mechanic noone else have, wouldn't it be better if MoA was a spell, which, let's say, does damage based on your current mana? So the point would be to makes so everytime MoA is up our mana is near to full.

This would still feel unique (more mana we have = more damage MoA does) but still practical (can be used everytime and everywhere and still requires planning rather than being braindead).

[Imnick]

I would not ask for a spell that does damage based on your current mana because that is a very simplistic spell. You cast it at very high mana and then not at all. What would be the point of that?
A spell that does high damage and requires a (very small!) amount of forethought before casting is more interesting in my eyes.

Honestly I feel the mana scaling is more just so that it scales with more stats than just crit than anything else (Mastery increases your mana pool, and thus that spell's damage. It's not generally affected by Mastery because it does not affect Arcane Charges).

[Seneca]

I would not ask for a spell that does damage based on your current mana because that is a very simplistic spell. You cast it at very high mana and then not at all. What would be the point of that?

Well there are spells which we use everytime they are up again or the instant they proc, so it would less simplicistic than 99% of all the rest if you think about that

It would have a medium-long CD, so the point would be to spend as much mana as possible during the time it is not up, to maximize DPS, and then, when it is going to be back soon, regen mana asap to maximize its damage.

Surely, with the current system it would not feel as special as it could be, considering that our mana regen is mostly dictated by having Evocation up.

Also, it is something I thought about 30 secs, so we should not pretend that it would be perfect :P

A spell that does high damage and requires a (very small!) amount of forethought before casting is more interesting in my eyes.

I am sure there could be ways to make those kind of interesting spells and, at the same time, do not make them situational or restrictive.

[Imnick]

Here's the thing, right?
As a designer, restrictions are your friends. A class where none of the abilities have restrictions or situational bonuses or demerits is bland. Having spells which are "situational or restrictive" is not bad design.
You said earlier that as a developer you would try and avoid adding spells where outside factors could mess you up... but that's not right! WoW is all about creating situations that mess you up! Challenging the player in that manner is a core part of the game's creation!

If our entire toolkit was made of spells that required the target to stand still, I could see a problem, but having just one which you only cast once a minute (so only six to eight times in the average boss fight, not that taxing) adds some interesting flavour and moments of consideration that would not exist if it was simply a button you pressed immediately whenever you saw it light up.

If this was a rotational spell, something we had to rely upon frequently to do the bulk of our damage, I'd be more sympathetic.
Having literally one spell in our toolkit that requires targets stand still for what is seriously not a very long time though, I can't see any complaining about that as justified.
While yes, obviously everyone ever would love if all of their spells could just go off with no need to think about if it's the best time, having restrictions is good for the game, good for a class, and good to include as part of your design. This particular one is not a huge burden, and it gives you something to consider alongside your otherwise fairly static DPS rotation.

[Shangalar]

@ whoever suggested we make separate threads for Arcane and Fire - it will be done by the end of the weekend, with all of the spell info and wowdb links. I'll try to do it tomorrow, but won't promise.

Other than that - where has our mana increasing artifact trait gone? Is that becoming baseline now or was it totally scrapped at least for now?

[Imnick]

it seems to have been scrapped for now.

[Ryken]

So we have an ability whose main usefulness is to deliver flags and run races... How cool!

Seriously, this isn't helpful feedback. Displacement is awesome, and running flags in pvp and bombs/objectives in raids were an example, and not the final and total sum of uses. It helps you get to places fast. Iron Stars on Garrosh, earlier placements for Doomfire on Archimonde, etc.