Grounding Totem vs Voidsurge

[Deleted]

Hey Guys,

ive been having some troubles grounding the Voidsurge debuff on Xhul mythic lately and i just cant find a proper explanation for it. We even tried placing up to a maximum of three grounding totems at once to make sure to ground it. But sometimes it just doesnt work and the grounding totem remains at its position doing nothing. Does anyone else experience issues like this on that fight?

Additionally to that i have a question to Grounding + Chiburst: Im using the addon Shaman Friend to track the grounded spell. Sometimes it displays Chiburst as a grounded spell. I havent been able to figure out if thats just a bug everytime the grounding totem gets "hit" by a chiburst or if it actually grounds a friendly spell. Although it shouldnt be able to ground chiburst at all right? I mean its not a targeted ability or anything...

Id appreciate your help on this

[Deleted]

I have had the same problem, Credit to Leivah

can provide some intel on this.

Basically what you need to know is everyone within 30yards of the totem will get the buff when you drop it, generally a spell is absorbed instantly so the totem is destroyed.

However if you are dropping it next to the boss (eg melee), the bait group won't be saved by the totem unless they are within 30 yards of it the moment 10 seconds are left in the duration.

What this means is that Grounding works with pulses. It has a 15s duration so you have 3 chances per totem of soaking a spell to whoever is covered by the range.

Seeing as <5s is unpractical, your best bet is <10s.

In actual Xhul fight what you want to do is drop Grounding the moment he finishes Fel Surge and everyone's boss mod is making chat balloons on top of their heads, and at the same time use Totemic Projection to throw the totem within range of the bait group. What this will do is if you aren't terrible with your aim or the group doesn't run off to Africa because of a awkward black hole, your totem will always soak Void Surge.

Personally I always let the first go off because if we need emergency cleaning someone can just pop a CD and touch both fires.

You must however be aware that if a imp cast goes through the totem will be destroyed and you will still get Void Surge.

PS: Any shaman, regardless of spec can do this solo.

You probly Dropped it in Melee and so the ranged couldn't benefit from its buff and thus counter the void surge that targets them.
Make sure no imp firebolts hits the ranged because with some bad timing this could cause them to lose the Grounding totem buff

[prudi]

Just put it down 0,5sec before cast ish. Hope it gets grounded, if not the ranged is most likely out of range and should know how to deal with it. Thats the lesson i learned after all our pulls

Edit: i usually aim for 0,7 seconds remianing on the void surge cast bar when i ground, and have had for some reason greater sucess at that exact time than any of the others i tried.

[Polygonx]

If you're playing Enhancement, you can almost already give up on doing it, speaking from experience.

If you're Elemental/Resto, then idk, our RSham has never had any problems with it, it seems to be a Melee range issue mostly from what I've experienced.

[Deleted]

If you are enhancement you can't cast it a second before because when you project throw the grounding totem it take couple second before it reapply the 30 yard buff around it, as enhancement you throw it in advance even 5-6 second before and immediatly project it to the ranged and wait.
as elemental you can cast it right before Void Surge cast

[freddy090909]

As ele, I just stand between our ranged/melee stack point and our baiting group, so that my totem will be in range of the baiters as soon as it's dropped (no need to project). I drop the totem just before or during the boss's cast bar (~1-2 seconds before the bigwigs bar finishes), which makes it fairly reliable compared to dropping it early and potentially soaking an imp cast. There are times just after absorbing the big adds where the boss may quickly cast another void surge. Have another Shaman ready to soak this or run call of the elements if none are available.

In regards to the chi burst question, it might just be that the healing portion of chi burst can hit totems. While I doubt it removes the totem, Shaman buddy may just be checking for anything to hit the totem and then reporting it to your screen.

[Deleted]

First of all id like to thank you for all your answers.
The problem is that i basically tried all of this already (different timings, totemic projection into the range camp and so on)
I should've probably told you that i didnt have these problems all the time. Ive only experienced issues concerning voidsurge last ID and the current ID. Never had any problems before.
Also im not the only shaman placing the grounding totem on that fight. We have an enhancement (me) an resto and an ele placing grounding totem. But sometimes it just wont work Q.Q

[L3fty]

Hey,

It would be great if you have any logs of the pulls you are referring too. It's generally a choice between 3 events:

1. Imp cast was soaked before void surge hit.

2. The ranged bait group were in Africa.

3. The cast of Grounding Totem was slightly late.

Point 1 is pretty much your raids fault. Not enough dps on imps, or the assigned interrupt missed.

Point 2 is your bait groups unlucky/extreme positioning. As mentioned you can remedy this with projection however I would not advice this because there is 1 set of void surge casts that have irregular timing, which sometimes requires you to take the Call of the Elements talent. Instead, if you get bad rng and end up eating alot of Fel Surge, pop unleash + ghost wolf on your way back and physically stand between the bait group and your other ranged and drop it. This works alot of the time.

Lastly, there is a delay between Grounding Totem being cast, and the buff being registered on the raid. Server lag w/e it is. This mean even if you drop the totem before the cast, it sometimes goes through because it had not registered in time. Best solution for this is to check the CD on GT and when it's up count 1 , 2 then drop it. Apart from the 1 funky Void Surge I mentioned this is a repetitive motion which can help soak accurately: GT off CD 1 , 2 > Cast GT.

Good luck!

edit-i've just noticed you say you are enhancement. Our enhancement shammy only drops GT to soak the odd imp cast that might slip through. I wouldn't like to do this fight without the option of playing Ele. Then again, Void Surge is cast like clockwork after Fel Surge, so try the timing I mentioned before, sure it will be ok.

[Deleted]

Im personally forced to go elemental on Xhul as enhancement because of the Groundings.. Just to make sure they're covered :')

[Gardiff]

I would really like to see the logs and see all 3 shamans dropping it because when I do it solo, I almost never have a problem. I have always casted it during the bosses cast of void surge and the only time it misses is if the mages are not in range from where it initially drops (it is easy to see if it will miss them just by seeing who doesn't have a grounding totem buff when it's dropped). If it misses I just ask the mages to stand closer since you don't actually have to 6000 yards away. You can stand 25 yards away and still be eligible for chains and not fel surge.

[Deleted]

Imps should never get casts off - if they do then the Grounding Totem not absorbing the Void Surge is not your fault (unless you haven't Earthquaked them, in which case you're also partially responsible)

I'm the Grounding Totem dropper on Xhul, and if you'd like some logs to go through here's some from last week.

I have Xhul'horac as my focus on each pull, and my focus has a big cast bar that I never miss. So watch your timers, and when he's about to cast Void Surge just be ready. You can drop it at any point during the cast but since it's 2 seconds long you're able to finish a cast in time, so don't worry about cancelling casts unless necessary.

Your melee and ranged should never be so far away that, when you're standing in between them, you can't reach them all with the totem unless they're running a Fel Surge away (but if they're doing that they are not eligible targets for Void Surge, so that won't make a difference). We have a group in melee that has everyone except three mages out at ranged and two elemental shamans in between, which means none of us 5 should ever get Fel Surge, but the other guy is a backup in case something happens and I do get it.

[Deleted]

Sadly i cant post any links yet.
If you still want to check out logs for Xhul you can search for my guild Manasturm-Kel'Thuzad EU on warcraftlogs. Our last progress day on Xhul was last sunday (we had a 0% try there. yes i cried aswell). My Character Name is Druzhan-Arthas

Thanks in advance

[Gardiff]

So I have been looking at your longest attempt (the 0%) wipe and I am seeing no bug here.

To start, lets look at the mage's first death at ~328. Simply put here, this is the mage's issue because he ended up casting twice in a row on the same mage. There are things you can do to help with the situation. Two choices: Either spec cold snap so you can reset evanescence (if they cast on the same mage twice it won't be off cd). Or, use your normal invis to put it onto one of the other 3 targets at ranged (I see you have a hunter out there as well) and pray that if it goes on your hunter and they FD, that it doesn't come back to the mage who invis'd.

Now for the grounding totem issue.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mpTMF9QLBb6t17Xv#fight=20&type=casts&translate=true&pins=0%24Separate%24%23244F4B%24auras-gained%240%240.0.0.Any%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24189781^0%24Separate%24%239 09049%24casts%241%240.0.0.Any%2493068.0.0.Boss%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24186333^0%24Sep arate%24%23a04D8A%24casts%241%240.0.0.Any%2493068.0.0.Boss%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%2418 9775&hostility=1&source=69

On this if you look at the void surge at 4:12, that is the one that got off.

Here is who had the grounding buff at that time

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...78&view=events

Only one shaman's grounding was down at this time and it was Druzahns. So why didn't it work? Take a look at the replay. See where druzahn is positioned and where the mages are. It is easy to see the mages were out of range (also verified by the fact they didn't have the buff). Thus this issue is easily solved.

However, this should still not have made the chains go onto the mage group because again you are using 4 people. As in, the void surge would take away one of the 4 eligible people. However, you elected to use your mage to soak the black hole which ALSO gives them the void debuff. 2 eligible people left. Thus, boss will only have a 2/3 chance of selecting the 'range group' and had to choose some1 in melee. In other words, it was not just a grounding problem - you probably shouldn't be using cauterzing mages to soak a black hole UNLESS IF IT IS a backup option. You had other people who could do it at the time and so the mage should not have.

Thus, it is an issue of two of you not dropping the totem and also because your one person who did drop it is NOT close enough to the ranged group. I know from experience that one shaman can get all the void surges and so having 3 SHOULD BE overkill. There is only one time where 1 shaman is not adequate and that is when you kill omnus because he can double cast it then. But that is the ONLY time. If you glyph grounding (so that it is 22 seconds) and make a weak aura for when the boss is casting void surge and position yourself closer to the mages, you will have no issues.

TBH it really should be your resto shaman who does this. If you really want your melee shamans to position a grounding (or alternatively you can ask your mages to stand closer), that is just stupid because there is very little healing to do on this fight. As you can see on the log you were just a bit too far out of the mages. The resto shaman can stand much closer though obviously and so keep that in mind. Ele has an easy time obviously as well.

Also I would not recommend using the mages to soak black holes. You had 2 dks and 2 warlocks that were eligible.

Here is an example of just tonight of me grounding all of the void surges. It is completely possible with 1 shaman (preferably an ele/resto). There is only 1 dangerous void surge depending on when omnus dies.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...false%24186333

[Deleted]

Thank you for your detailed feedback Gardiff. But we had 5 Void Surges going off, not 1.
3 on Chromie, 1 on Andromath and 1 on Vertebrat. (the last one on Unglügg doesnt really count because everyone else was dead)
You mentioned the voidsurge on 4:12, and i see how i failed to use Totemic Projection to apply the grounding totem buff on the ranged dps.
I further analysed the log and apparently the player whos getting casted on was not affected by grounding totem... thats a problem i can work with and will try to prevent next time.
Thanks a bunch guys

[Gardiff]

I wouldn't put the fail to use totemic projection thing on you because there is an unfortunate bug with grounding. Simply put, some of our totems DO NOT WORK PROPERLY with projection. See for yourself. If you drop it in your garrison and immediately project out of your range, you will retain the grounding buff for ~3-4 seconds AFTER you project it. SLT is bugged like this as well. The projected spot does NOT get the grounding buff for quite a bit after. This is why as enhance it should not really be your responsibility at all for void surges when there other non-enhance shaman in the group. If you want proof of the delay, take a look at what happens at the 2:42 void surge. Bali projects it, but the group only gets the buff 4 seconds later.

00:02:41.358 Balî casts Grounding Totem
00:02:41.614 Balî casts Totemic Projection

However,

00:02:46.347 Andromath gains Grounding Totem Effect from Totem der Erdung 5 (Balî)
00:02:46.347 Mâgíe gains Grounding Totem Effect from Totem der Erdung 5 (Balî)
00:02:46.347 Vertebrat gains Grounding Totem Effect from Totem der Erdung 5 (Balî)
00:02:46.347 Druzhan gains Grounding Totem Effect from Totem der Erdung 5 (Balî)
00:02:46.347 Cromie gains Grounding Totem Effect from Totem der Erdung 5 (Balî)

More in-depth stuff below. Look at this.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=186333

Line up the 5 times it happened where the void surge got out. Once at 1:13, 1:43, 2:42 (NOTE this is the double cast after you kill omnus where one shaman can't solo it), 4:12 (which we mentioned), and 4:42.

So lets look at this now of all grounding totems cast.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...s&ability=8177

at 1:13, Bali and you both dropped it in time. The 3rd shaman dropped it late. However, at the last 1/10 of a second, your groundings were eaten by a fel orb. This is really just unfortunate but can happen. Better grips/interrupts may prevent it, but this may have been a set where you didn't have a grip available.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=186532

Take a look at what kills the grounding at 1:15.

00:01:14.979 Wild Pyromaniac 9 casts Fel Orb on Totem der Erdung 2 (Balî)
00:01:14.979 Wild Pyromaniac 8 casts Fel Orb on Totem der Erdung 2 (Druzhan)

at 1:43, again its Bali and you. 3rd shaman dropped nothing. Same as above. Imp orbs ate your groundings.

00:01:43.009 Wild Pyromaniac 10 casts Fel Orb on Totem der Erdung 3 (Druzhan)
00:01:43.010 Wild Pyromaniac 11 casts Fel Orb on Totem der Erdung 3 (Balî)

at 2:42, Bali again drops it and is out of range. The other 2 shaman don't drop it at all. I assume this is from you guys stacking up at this point. Still, your ranged shamans can inch out a little to drop grounding further out. See the top of the post for proof.

At 4:42, I didn't look at it but I guarantee it is the same thing as above.

So in essence, two got eaten by orbs, three were the projection issue. The orb one IS POSSIBLY fixable, however. All you have to do is make a basic weak aura that tells you when the boss is casting void surge. THAT Is the only time point you drop the grounding totem and you drop the grounding late into the cast. You never drop it earlier (even 2-3 sec earlier) because it risks being eaten by orbs. This doesn't guarantee it will fix the problem, however, because as you can see in your logs, the orbs eating the grounding and the void surge going off were 1/10 of a second apart for the first one. However, your second one could have been fixed by a later cast grounding totem. DO NOT rely on DBM for this. I would make a weak aura since it works so much better by having the boss cast time big across your screen. This was important for me anyway as a healer since I don't always have the boss targeted. Thus, in most cases delayed groundings will fix the problem. Better grips/interrupts will also help with that.

As for the projection ones.... don't rely on projection. You actually don't need to be super stacked at the end. just have your ele/resto a little bit closer to the ranged group and you will be fine.

Unfortunately the projection bug exists with some of our most important totems. For resto, it bugs with SLT. The damage split portion still works with projection, but the 10% reduction is not granted.

Some totems on the other hand, simply work with projection. You just have to know grounding is one of the buggy ones. Unfortunately no matter how many times I report it or post about it, nothing happens.

[Deleted]

I think its not a bug with projection.. its a bug with grounding totem.
Someone else wrote that the buff applies in three pulses, so if you place and project it immediately afterwards the buff will not apply until the second pulse. Probably the same with SLT. I will just drop my grounding totem ~6 seconds before voidsurge to make sure that the buff applies on my ranged dps after i project it and before voidsurge hits. And yeah we have to work on our imp management^^

[Gardiff]

Grounding may behave that way, but SLT is definetly a bug.

SLT does project the damage redistribution instantly (as it redistributes the health every 1 second which is how the totem works) but not the 10% damage reduction. Having an inconsistency like this in SLT is less likely to be intended and more likely to be a bug.

If you drop it 6 seconds early, your grounding totem is more likely to be eaten by imps. I apologize if this is coming off as rude, but if you cannot convince your resto or ele to do this properly and easily 100% of the time, your raid has other problems. It is an incredibly easy fix but if that is how you want to do it, then good luck.

[Deleted]

Dropping it 6 seconds before voidsurge worked pretty good on my firstkill 2 minutes ago

[Cookiecutters]

Thank you for your detailed feedback Gardiff. But we had 5 Void Surges going off, not 1.
3 on Chromie, 1 on Andromath and 1 on Vertebrat. (the last one on Unglügg doesnt really count because everyone else was dead)
You mentioned the voidsurge on 4:12, and i see how i failed to use Totemic Projection to apply the grounding totem buff on the ranged dps.
I further analysed the log and apparently the player whos getting casted on was not affected by grounding totem... thats a problem i can work with and will try to prevent next time.
Thanks a bunch guys

Shouldn't project grounding, after it's projected it takes 1-2 seconds to absorb something and you don't want to risk it absorbing something else. Just work on positioning and communicating w your bait group.

[Deleted]

Highly recommend people who have issues with grounding to read post #2.