[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[EternalBany]

i thought the classes were getting some pruning?
i have more keybinds on my holy paladin than i ever had on my other classes

i am shying away from speccing the talent rule of law cause that would mean even more keytbinds,
i already have 1234, shift/1234. alt 123, q, e, f ,z ,x, c ,v,r ,t binded,

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In non-trivial content, it's all for show. In fact, the generally accepted "best" 100 talent for raiding will (in almost all cases) discourage you from being in melee to use that hammer— because that would mean you're leaving the ranged without much mastery benefit while you sit in a zone already covered by the tanks beacon (via Beacon of the Lightbringer).

The fun factor is subjective, but in my opinion it is the least fun of all the healing specs at the moment. It's probably great for someone looking to get into healing, but to me it feels incredibly dull.
However, if you're not looking to push mythic content, then you can certainly pick up a talent that will let you swing away. If your enjoyment comes more from the encounter design itself (vs finding ways to optimize your spec's play within an encounter) then holy paladin will give you straightforward healing and probably be fairly enjoyable. If you're looking for synergies and combos, on the other hand, holy paladin is a bad pick.

With all of that said, all the healers have solid numbers at the moment. Holy paladin throughput is probably in the upper half.

i am looking to do mythic++++++ dungeons
almost no raid commitment

should i play a holy paladin or a holy priest?
no other healer interests me

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In non-trivial content, it's all for show. In fact, the generally accepted "best" 100 talent for raiding will (in almost all cases) discourage you from being in melee to use that hammer— because that would mean you're leaving the ranged without much mastery benefit while you sit in a zone already covered by the tanks beacon (via Beacon of the Lightbringer).

The fun factor is subjective, but in my opinion it is the least fun of all the healing specs at the moment. It's probably great for someone looking to get into healing, but to me it feels incredibly dull.
However, if you're not looking to push mythic content, then you can certainly pick up a talent that will let you swing away. If your enjoyment comes more from the encounter design itself (vs finding ways to optimize your spec's play within an encounter) then holy paladin will give you straightforward healing and probably be fairly enjoyable. If you're looking for synergies and combos, on the other hand, holy paladin is a bad pick.

With all of that said, all the healers have solid numbers at the moment. Holy paladin throughput is probably in the upper half.

i am looking to do mythic++++++ dungeons
almost no raid commitment

should i play a holy paladin or a holy priest?
no other healer interests me

[Spazzix]

i am looking to do mythic++++++ dungeons
almost no raid commitment

should i play a holy paladin or a holy priest?
no other healer interests me

Between those two, Paladin.

[Unir]

Are we playing the same spec? 95% is completely predetermined and pressing stuff on CD. A fucking bot could play holy pala to 99% efficiency.

Would love to know what Blizzard did with the guy that designed cata T11/12 holy pala. That was the shit.

I agree with you, with the caveat that technically we do at least have more buttons to press - which in itself is a slight improvement over WoD paladin. You're right, though. Mostly those more buttons are just "press this on CD" kind of buttons.

I'm also having a really hard time with LotM. So far I haven't been using it much at all. I just can't get past the idea that it's doing negative healing when I use it. Even when I try to not think about it that way, I can't get past the idea that it's only doing half the healing that it lands on my target since I take the other half in damage. It's even worse when it crits, and I am loading up on crit as a stat.

On progression that just seems like a terrible idea. Am I the only one? Am I thinking about it the wrong way?

[Leefa]

I'm also having a really hard time with LotM. So far I haven't been using it much at all. I just can't get past the idea that it's doing negative healing when I use it. Even when I try to not think about it that way, I can't get past the idea that it's only doing half the healing that it lands on my target since I take the other half in damage. It's even worse when it crits, and I am loading up on crit as a stat.

On progression that just seems like a terrible idea. Am I the only one? Am I thinking about it the wrong way?

This is exactly why Martyr is a horrible spell in the first place. Its extremely useless and when you think about what other specs get aside from their FoL/HL equivalent its amusing they even thought Martyr would be a decent spell (compared to Chain Heal, Rejuv, Vivify, Renew, Prayer of Healing). The spells the other classes get are spamable spells with no downsides and they are either instant cast hots or aoe heals. Martyr is just abysmal compared to those spells and they usually always end up in the respective class' top 3 heals where as Martyr is nowhere to be found on your breakdown cause of how shitty it is.

And to people who say paladins are much more exciting than WoD - its not. You have an even slower base rotation now, you still press your occasional LoD like you did in WoD and the rest are just random press on cooldown abilities that does nothing for your healing.

[Alextros]

I agree with you, with the caveat that technically we do at least have more buttons to press - which in itself is a slight improvement over WoD paladin. You're right, though. Mostly those more buttons are just "press this on CD" kind of buttons.

I'm also having a really hard time with LotM. So far I haven't been using it much at all. I just can't get past the idea that it's doing negative healing when I use it. Even when I try to not think about it that way, I can't get past the idea that it's only doing half the healing that it lands on my target since I take the other half in damage. It's even worse when it crits, and I am loading up on crit as a stat.

On progression that just seems like a terrible idea. Am I the only one? Am I thinking about it the wrong way?

Looking at LotM statiscly it is a 250% spell power heal on a 1.5% total mana cost, being instant (500% spellpower heal but you take 50% of that in damage). Only real applied situation I see LotM used is when you got HoT's rolling on you, you are at 100% hp and there are no lethal damage inc at you. The fact that it can crit, while we are loaded on it is only making it more useless, as it puts us more at risk.

Other thought, just the fact that we needed a 15% hp increase says enough about LotM

edit: clarification

[Hashcrypt]

I found myself using LotM A LOT during pvp. Things may be different in pve, but I like ghee idea of having this powerful instant heal at my disposal.

You have to use it in a smart way of course, but I liked having the option.

Of course things could be different at 110.

On an unrelated note: Are there any good macros out there that will combine my offensive and healing spells into one keybind? I'm looking for something that will cast crusader strike/judgment/consecration/holy prism on enemy targets, but will mouseover heal friendlies.

In addition, thoughts on Holy Prism? I love having instant cast heals and HP just adds to my toolkit. But I don't want to use a completely non competitive talent either.

And finally, is Clique healing a good way to go about raid/pvp healing? It seems fast to me, but I also find myself staring at my raid frames instead of focusing on the action. Is there a better way to go about this?

[IndoX]

And to people who say paladins are much more exciting than WoD - its not. You have an even slower base rotation now, you still press your occasional LoD like you did in WoD and the rest are just random press on cooldown abilities that does nothing for your healing.

Beacon of Virtue is starting to become one of the go to talents in Legion and that really spices up the base rotation. In fact it's pulling more than other talents.

With BoV Paladins are really becoming strong burst cleave healers since you essentially can beacon 4 people. Mythic+ dungeons play much more aggressively since we can drink between pulls. In raids we play a little more conversatively but there are logs out there of getting 1-2mil heals in one GCD because of HS crits on 4 people with wings.

Paired with holy avenger and we gain really strong healing and another cd that aligns with wings.

[Taeldorian]

Are we playing the same spec? 95% is completely predetermined and pressing stuff on CD. A fucking bot could play holy pala to 99% efficiency.

Would love to know what Blizzard did with the guy that designed cata T11/12 holy pala. That was the shit.

A fucking bot could play any of the healers. What youre describing isnt holy paladin alone, its every healer aside from disc. Druid is literally just apply hots and use a raid CD when needed, holy priest is just spam heal and use your aoe/big burst heal when needed, resto sham is WS/CBT spam along with HS and HW, use bloodlust when required. So what youre saying doesnt just apply to holy paladins. None of the healers have extremely different or hard playstyles, most healers are just press shit on CD and use x or y ability when needed.

I prefer this version of holy paladin over most of our other iterations, especially WoD. Id be playing my paladin either way, but I do enjoy this playstyle. Either way, I dont find any of the other healers to be any more fun than hpaladin.

[Deleted]

A fucking bot could play any of the healers. What youre describing isnt holy paladin alone, its every healer aside from disc. Druid is literally just apply hots and use a raid CD when needed, holy priest is just spam heal and use your aoe/big burst heal when needed, resto sham is WS/CBT spam along with HS and HW, use bloodlust when required. So what youre saying doesnt just apply to holy paladins. None of the healers have extremely different or hard playstyles, most healers are just press shit on CD and use x or y ability when needed.

I prefer this version of holy paladin over most of our other iterations, especially WoD. Id be playing my paladin either way, but I do enjoy this playstyle. Either way, I dont find any of the other healers to be any more fun than hpaladin.

Let me phrase it this way: the difference between a good, very good and superb holy paladin solely lies in the usage of flash of light.
Let that sink in (and then compare with other classes, for druids it's at least a high impact spell like WG).

[Taeldorian]

Let me phrase it this way: the difference between a good, very good and superb holy paladin solely lies in the usage of flash of light.
Let that sink in (and then compare with other classes, for druids it's at least a high impact spell like WG).

Not just that. It also involves good management of holy shock, not just loluseitonCD because thats not good management. Im not sure if youve raid tested but Ive played with both really good and really iffy holy paladins and the main differences between there hps were pretty large due to holy shock and flash of light management as well as CD management.

You dont just press everything on CD, and if you think thats actually how we play you arent playing it correctly. A good holy paladin knows when to use holy shock instead of FoL or Holy light, a good holy paladin knows when raidwide damage is coming in order for good usage of RoL, a good holy paladin knows when to use Bestow faith and how to properly plan the 5 second CD so the heal doesnt contribute to overhealing.

Theres a lot of things that set apart a good holy paladin from a bad one, its not just usage of FoL, its plenty of other things like RoL management, Bestow faith management, Holy shock management, etc. There can be a pretty big difference between a good holy paladin and a bad one, as well as a decent holy paladin and a superb one. Flash of light management isnt the defining factor between them, its many other things.

[Genzen Han]

So I have a question about what makes Paladin strong single-target healers.

We always say Paladins are good for spot heals and tank heals etc, and I'm just wondering what it is that makes them so much better at ST healing than other classes. Every class pretty much has the core 'Holy Light/Flash of Light' spell-set, with one being slow and cheap and the other being fast and expensive. Are the Paladin versions just better in some way? We have Holy Shock and Bestow Faith with short CDS, but most classes have a short CD spell that heals for more, or have a HoT or two that they can have rolling to augment their 'Holy Light/Flash of Light' spam. Again, are the Paladins' versions just better? Is it just that fact that, when a Paladin does a single-target heal, it's also transferring 40% across to the Beacon target, which effectively makes their 'Holy Light/Flash of Light' spam 140% of the others'?

Just wanting to understand what my strengths will be and why, so I can make more informed triage decisions.

[Deleted]

Not just that. It also involves good management of holy shock, not just loluseitonCD because thats not good management. Im not sure if youve raid tested but Ive played with both really good and really iffy holy paladins and the main differences between there hps were pretty large due to holy shock and flash of light management as well as CD management.

You dont just press everything on CD, and if you think thats actually how we play you arent playing it correctly. A good holy paladin knows when to use holy shock instead of FoL or Holy light, a good holy paladin knows when raidwide damage is coming in order for good usage of RoL, a good holy paladin knows when to use Bestow faith and how to properly plan the 5 second CD so the heal doesnt contribute to overhealing.

Theres a lot of things that set apart a good holy paladin from a bad one, its not just usage of FoL, its plenty of other things like RoL management, Bestow faith management, Holy shock management, etc. There can be a pretty big difference between a good holy paladin and a bad one, as well as a decent holy paladin and a superb one. Flash of light management isnt the defining factor between them, its many other things.

The straw man burns but my point stands.

[Taeldorian]

The straw man burns but my point stands.

If you actually believe that the only difference between a good holy paladin and a superb holy paladin is flash of light, I really cant tell if your being serious or not because thats completely incorrect. If you want to keep that as your point go ahead, but its not right, not even close.

Im not going to repeat myself, but the things that define a superb holy paladin and a good holy paladin are Bestow Faith management, Holy shock management, RoL management and CD management.

A superb holy paladin will know when to use Bestow Faith so it doesnt contribute to overhealing making it a useless heal, a superb holy paladin will know exactly when to use RoL to get the most out of the increased range on heals/mastery, a superb holy paladin will know when its best to use holy shock or flash of light. A good holy paladin may know some of these things, but if they arent a superb paladin then there management with most of the abilities listed above isnt as good as it can be. Then of course we have CD management, but thats the same for all healers, the better you manage your CDs the better you are, so I wont count that towards holy paladin management.

All of the abilities I listed here can easily define you as a good or superb holy paladin based on how you use them and manage them. Its fairly obvious flash of light is not the defining factor between a good or superb holy paladin. It may be A defining factor, but its not THE defining factor. Theres many defining factors as stated above.

Your point is completely incorrect, but if you want to keep thinking that your point actually stands then thats all you man. Cant help you there.

[Bearygood]

Not just that. It also involves good management of holy shock, not just loluseitonCD because thats not good management. Im not sure if youve raid tested but Ive played with both really good and really iffy holy paladins and the main differences between there hps were pretty large due to holy shock and flash of light management as well as CD management.

You dont just press everything on CD, and if you think thats actually how we play you arent playing it correctly. A good holy paladin knows when to use holy shock instead of FoL or Holy light, a good holy paladin knows when raidwide damage is coming in order for good usage of RoL, a good holy paladin knows when to use Bestow faith and how to properly plan the 5 second CD so the heal doesnt contribute to overhealing.

Theres a lot of things that set apart a good holy paladin from a bad one, its not just usage of FoL, its plenty of other things like RoL management, Bestow faith management, Holy shock management, etc. There can be a pretty big difference between a good holy paladin and a bad one, as well as a decent holy paladin and a superb one. Flash of light management isnt the defining factor between them, its many other things.

I could agree on the bestow faith, obviously overhealing on that is wrong. But not using holy shocks on CD is missing many infusion of light procs, surely.

[Deleted]

the things that define a superb holy paladin and a good holy paladin are Bestow Faith management, Holy shock management, RoL management and CD management.

A superb holy paladin will know when to use Bestow Faith so it doesnt contribute to overhealing making it a useless heal, a superb holy paladin will know exactly when to use RoL to get the most out of the increased range on heals/mastery, a superb holy paladin will know when its best to use holy shock or flash of light. A good holy paladin may know some of these things, but if they arent a superb paladin then there management with most of the abilities listed above isnt as good as it can be. Then of course we have CD management, but thats the same for all healers, the better you manage your CDs the better you are, so I wont count that towards holy paladin management.

I think I know what the probleme is: a paladin that delays holy shock and bestow faith usage regularly (in a raid environment) is neither a good nor a superb holy paladin - it's a bad one. Why? Opportunity cost (bestow faith and holy shock are by far our most efficient single target spells, if you delay a use for 15% less overheal on the next one you failed) and this shitty spell called light of the martyr for serious situations that call for an instant.

CD management? Are you kidding me - did you miss Blizzard merging our CDs with WoD? Devo aura usage is completely predetermined through raid CD list. And with RoL you better make sure you don't use LoD right before it - lol

[Taeldorian]

I think I know what the probleme is: a paladin that delays holy shock and bestow faith usage regularly (in a raid environment) is neither a good nor a superb holy paladin - it's a bad one. Why? Opportunity cost (bestow faith and holy shock are by far our most efficient single target spells, if you delay a use for 15% less overheal on the next one you failed) and this shitty spell called light of the martyr for serious situations that call for an instant.

CD management? Are you kidding me - did you miss Blizzard merging our CDs with WoD? Devo aura usage is completely predetermined through raid CD list. And with RoL you better make sure you don't use LoD right before it - lol

Not going to keep restating myself. Believe what you want, but believing that flash of light is the only thing that defines a superb holy paladin and a good holy paladin is laughable. Theres other spells I didnt mention either that are tied with our artifact that can easily affect performance if used at the wrong time or just overall incorrectly. Either way, believe what you want.

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I could agree on the bestow faith, obviously overhealing on that is wrong. But not using holy shocks on CD is missing many infusion of light procs, surely.

Using it on CD is right, but theres usually downtime during fights in which you dont heal or dont need to which is usually when a good holy paladin would start dpsing and such. Youre right though, using it on CD is basically how it works.

[CloudedInSanity]

Let me phrase it this way: the difference between a good, very good and superb holy paladin solely lies in the usage of flash of light.
Let that sink in (and then compare with other classes, for druids it's at least a high impact spell like WG).

This has never changed. How "good" people were at playing the class is never what has separated the good players.

[Noules]

Beacon of Virtue is starting to become one of the go to talents in Legion and that really spices up the base rotation. In fact it's pulling more than other talents.

With BoV Paladins are really becoming strong burst cleave healers since you essentially can beacon 4 people. Mythic+ dungeons play much more aggressively since we can drink between pulls. In raids we play a little more conversatively but there are logs out there of getting 1-2mil heals in one GCD because of HS crits on 4 people with wings.

Paired with holy avenger and we gain really strong healing and another cd that aligns with wings.

BoV does seem to have a great deal of potential, in raids as well as dungeons. I'm not really sure why people focus on BoV as a dungeon tool and not a raiding tool. Besides the obvious benefit of being able to line your your high throughput abilities with the BoV uptime, it also provides great synergy with Bestow Faith - both because it lets you 'steal' a GCD from the non-BoV time into BoV time, and because it essentially makes it into a smart heal (with Prism, LoD and BoV, a lot of your healing essentially becomes smart healing).

BoV also has a non-intuitive secondary effect: it makes Martyr (and to a lesser extent, JoL) usable. One of the major downsides to Martyr is of course that it doesn't transfer over beacon - but obviously, with BoV, you have clear periods of time where Martyr becomes very competitive in terms of HpS (and far superior in terms of HpM) as well as being instant and providing mobility. Using Martyr also lets you save HS procs for BoV time, meaning you get pretty much all of the benefit of using HL/FoL over Martyr while remaining very mobile. Bestow Faith on yourself as you Martyr twice going into BoV also helps a lot on the overhealing issue of BF.

[Thundering]

I agree with this 100%. In fact I would rank resto shaman as more fun than holy paladin, it just feels more active and engaging without being too complicated. @Thundering if you are here in this thread you must have thought holy pally was fun at some point. If so when? Right now I think it is much more fun than how it was in wod and mop. I had fun with it with cata and didn't play it before cata launched so I don't know if it has felt any different or more fun within the last 6-8 years than how it feels currently. If I remember right holy paladins in wrath was a simple holy light spam and poof you had heals.

I havent really though holy paladins where fun since wotlk=(

[Deleted]

This has never changed. How "good" people were at playing the class is never what has separated the good players.

So you want to deny that holy paladin has a ridiculously low skill cap (barely above the skill floor)? Play holy paladin, resto druid and holy priest if you want to focus solely on the boss because everyone can master those without even trying.

Disc and MW at least have the choice to use insane amounts of mana to do insane burst healing (without their raid CD) and shamans can utilize their very large arsenal of CDs. They can actually make mistakes that fuck you over for the rest of the encounter. Consequences for bad and good play that are greater than "Oh I overhealed for 40% with my 600% SP spell - ah whatever".