[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[nightfalls]

the healing would need to be reduced by about 10-15% - because that's what revival, devo, PWB, tranq, can all contribute to someone's hps.

Not really, because those numbers are not equal and you know it. The damage reduced by PW:B and AM are considerably less than the healing done by revival and tranq. Not to mention all of it is encounter dependent, anyway.

Hence this is really just going to be a pissing match if you compare CD's as such, and thankfully, Blizzard doesn't seem to have bought into that argument.

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the +50% mana cost to holy shock honestly would've been fine, paladins would still be viable and strong, but their hps would be naturally lower because they would need to gift more of their itemisation towards spirit which makes sense.

Absolutely not, because that's unduly harsh on lower geared players and on CM players (where Paladin is already very weak as a healer) while not as impacting for better geared players.

If anything, it should have been Holy Light and Flash of Light that received higher mana costs. That and the Archimonde trinket should not have been made as strong as it is.

I actually agree with "some" of your points with regard to balance, to an extent, but I think you would come off a bit more convincing if most of your post content didn't read like it was abject whining about a class, in that class forum, about how they "take your raid spot" or are "too OP" or whatever.

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Exactly the problem with Holy Paladins right now. Without viable AoE heals, they aren't just weak at raid-wide healing, but are straight-up terrible at it. This forces a strange balance issue where to be relevant at all they have to be overpowered in other areas, and not by a little but by a lot. The only problem is that so far the mark has been missed and it's been way too overboard on the effective HPS side, largely due to how ridiculous double Beacon is as a concept.

I'm still surprised Beacon of Faith hasn't been totally erased, which erases some of my Faith in upcoming class design and balance.

The problem isn't even lack of AoE healing, it's just lack of a meaningful spell toolkit. This is actually why I liked Holy Power, it gave the toolkit an extra dimension - even if there still weren't that many of them. For instance, I think it's actually fine that Holy Radiance is gone (though maybe the old, Cataclysm pre-4.3 version could be fine if it were reintroduced). But losing WoG means that a pretty meaningful spot-raid heal is missing, and I wouldn't quite call LotM a good replacement for it.

[Deleted]

This is the problem I alluded to a few posts back. Here are 4/5 of all of the non-talented non-CD abilities that Holy Paladin has:

1. Holy Shock - 'moderate' single target heal
2. Flash of Light - 'moderate' single target heal
3. Holy Light - 'moderate' single target heal
4. Light of the Martyr - 'moderate' single target heal

Only Holy Shock has a very short CD, the rest have no CD. There are literally no other non-CD abilities in the entire toolkit (aside from Holy Prism, IF you talent it). The 5th ability? Light of Dawn which being highly restricted by positioning isn't going to always be used, and even that's on a 10 second CD so it's not very impactful. Compare this to all other classes.

So even if the throughput is 'balanced' you're going to feel like you're doing the same work with a lot less effort than any other class which has to balance HoT/atonement placement (since those affect throughput) and balance tons of short CD's and rotations to boot.

Its not even like that. Its more like

1.Holy Shock
2.Holy Light or FoL, where during the course of an expansion the amount of FoLs increase

When you look at the class toolkit and artifact+talent combination, you can see that Martyr can easily be crossed out for example. Emphasizing strength> accepting weakness and even if you take every mobility+martyr talent you're still the worst healer on movement, while refusing to even consider them doesn't change the movement part by a lot but increases your strength when stationary.

blizzard just need to follow through with their changes and stop listening to players who only want to serve their agenda to get a guaranteed raid spot. the +50% mana cost to holy shock honestly would've been fine, paladins would still be viable and strong, but their hps would be naturally lower because they would need to gift more of their itemisation towards spirit which makes sense. paladins currently outperform every other healing in straight up HPS while also having the strongest raid CD (devo is currently better than everything else). it's just dumb.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=hps&boss=1784

velhari from 70% onwards is just a straight up hps battle. the majority of the healing you do is fucking pointless but it shows how much hps you're capable of doing. paladins currently win it. the monk/druid/resto shaman numbers would also include their respective healing CDs doing 0% overhealing so it's even more absurd

50% mana cost to Holy Shock was a bad change because it happened for the wrong reasons. Spirit failed for paladins because the expensive spells were not worth casting. Making dumb development decisions because of even dumber previous development decisions or because of trolls like you don't help the game at all. Its stupid to punish a class by increasing its mana cost on basic cheap spells when you have another that 70% of the time was casting the most expensive spells in the game.

The vehlari comment is just trolling by default on so many levels.

[Floopa]

I actually agree with "some" of your points with regard to balance, to an extent, but I think you would come off a bit more convincing if most of your post content didn't read like it was abject whining about a class, in that class forum, about how they "take your raid spot" or are "too OP" or whatever.

it's literally what it is though. it's whining because paladins were OP in 6.1, received nothing but buffs going into 6.2 and people are surprised at their current state?

it's an insult to intelligence when you hear things like "it's harsh for undergeared players/cms" - holy shit are we balancing around people who freshly ding 100 now? or are going for world first CM times? that's news to me because MWs are fucking garbage in both aspects. MWs in BiS gear w/ high lvl ring are pretty damn broken as well - the fact extend life can heal for an average of 200k proves it (and for the record i admitted EL was/is/will always be an overpowered set bonus) but it's still nothing compared to how paladins currently perform.

50% mana cost to Holy Shock was a bad change because it happened for the wrong reasons. Spirit failed for paladins because the expensive spells were not worth casting. Making dumb development decisions because of even dumber previous development decisions or because of trolls like you don't help the game at all. Its stupid to punish a class by increasing its mana cost on basic cheap spells when you have another that 70% of the time was casting the most expensive spells in the game.

The vehlari comment is just trolling by default on so many levels.

this is my log for velhari mythic this week and i whored on revival by ringing > revival the moment the raid went into p2 and revival contributed for 17%~ of my overall healing with 2%~ being overheal. 200k hps isn't impressive, the highest monk log is 266k where revival is 20% of his/her healing done but the highest paladin log is 70k hps higher (his hps is 337k) without devo showing on the meters. you're right, the holy shock change was not a "neat", "nice" or "intelligent" nerf but it was a nerf that needed to happen. similarly they could've nerfed the paladin class trinket by 50-75%, or change the spells it affects to holy radiance, eternal flame, word of glory and light of dawn.

i guess it's only trolling because it proves i'm right - rip

[Hulahoops]

it's literally what it is though. it's whining because paladins were OP in 6.1, received nothing but buffs going into 6.2 and people are surprised at their current state?

Quit whining and switch to paladin already if it makes you so upset, and quit bothering everyone here.

but the highest paladin log is 70k hps higher (his hps is 337k)

If you bothered to look at the top paladin parses on Velhari, you'll notice they are just straight up metre padding. Look at who they've got their beacons on, who they're healing, etc. They're healing classes with +healing glyphs and talents, beaconing same, etc. It's just for parsing, nobody actually heals like that for progression, which is what really matters.

[Floopa]

If you bothered to look at the top paladin parses on Velhari, you'll notice they are just straight up metre padding. Look at who they've got their beacons on, who they're healing, etc. They're healing classes with +healing glyphs and talents, beaconing same, etc. It's just for parsing, nobody actually heals like that for progression, which is what really matters.

paladins topped hps on progression too :'D

[Hulahoops]

It's a fight that favours paladins, get over it?

[Deleted]

this is my log for velhari mythic this week and i whored on revival by ringing > revival the moment the raid went into p2 and revival contributed for 17%~ of my overall healing with 2%~ being overheal. 200k hps isn't impressive, the highest monk log is 266k where revival is 20% of his/her healing done but the highest paladin log is 70k hps higher (his hps is 337k) without devo showing on the meters. you're right, the holy shock change was not a "neat", "nice" or "intelligent" nerf but it was a nerf that needed to happen. similarly they could've nerfed the paladin class trinket by 50-75%, or change the spells it affects to holy radiance, eternal flame, word of glory and light of dawn.

i guess it's only trolling because it proves i'm right - rip

No, its trolling because you're stupid if you think either of those logs are relevant in any way. That's a log done for parsing, with him beaconing 2 melee that are in no way in danger of dying just so there is no healing reduction from the tank debuff and in fact almost never healing a single tank.The timing on the 3 min wings is also favored by the kill time on the boss.

[Floopa]

No, its trolling because you're stupid if you think either of those logs are relevant in any way. That's a log done for parsing, with him beaconing 2 melee that are in no way in danger of dying just so there is no healing reduction from the tank debuff and in fact almost never healing a single tank.The timing on the 3 min wings is also favored by the kill time on the boss.

so let me get this straight. the paladin should outheal the monk because the paladin never heals the tanks (the monk wouldn't either...!) and because the paladin unglyphs wings so it becomes a 3 min CD? so AW is comparable to revival, but paladins also do 20% more healing (if we focus on the best logs for monk + paladin) on top of these similarities. oh and they have devo, double sac, etc. i guess the monk should count his/her blessings that he/she has immunity to edict - it's just a shame that is going away XD

at least we're finally admitting paladins are op aladya, it's a step in the right direction mate

[Supliftz]

Nerfing Holy Shock mana cost wasn't the way to fix the problem with Hpals in WoD. Blizzard learned from the stupid idea to make mana tea scale off spirit, which only fucked low geared monks.

[siccora]

well isnt this a LEGION thread? why bother warlordlogs? and this is paladin specific and not palas vs. monks vs. the world. i dont see the mistweaver thread being overtaken by palas.

[Deleted]

well isnt this a LEGION thread? why bother warlordlogs? and this is paladin specific and not palas vs. monks vs. the world. i dont see the mistweaver thread being overtaken by palas.

Every healing thread Floopa is writing in, turns into Monk vs. the world.

[mcbubble]

so let me get this straight. the paladin should outheal the monk because the paladin never heals the tanks (the monk wouldn't either...!) and because the paladin unglyphs wings so it becomes a 3 min CD? so AW is comparable to revival, but paladins also do 20% more healing (if we focus on the best logs for monk + paladin) on top of these similarities. oh and they have devo, double sac, etc. i guess the monk should count his/her blessings that he/she has immunity to edict - it's just a shame that is going away XD

at least we're finally admitting paladins are op aladya, it's a step in the right direction mate

What's funny: he's comparing a 3 healed log vs a 4 healed log...(and a gimmicky 3 healed fight at that)
It's trolling at its finest...typical Floopa....

[Deleted]

20-30% lower would probably be too low.

Looking at the current situation though, it's clear Holy Paladin has pretty low throughput for AoE healing. Light of Dawn does almost nothing(125% spell power) and it's practically melee, with a cooldown. They will be kings of spot healing and tank healing with Infusion of Light, and the aura and general utility of course... But with this tuning they will be far lower on AoE healing throughput. Still probably guaranteed raid spot though, the utility's so huge. Paladin, Holy Priest and Shaman are very likely to snatch 3 guaranteed ones.

[btard]

I bet martyr will never be used unless somehow it will show in logs as a full healing. SLT for instance shows 0 healing in logs right now. What's the point of a spell that costs mana, eats a gcd, does zero healing and may sometimes (on a very rare occasion) save someone? It's like Void Shift except that Void Shift was like 10000 times better.

Well there is another possibility. You ask two friend holy paladins to cast nothing but martyr, preferably for overhealing (dunno if it does 100% damage on overheal) while you put beacons on them and enjoy your 500k hps.

But wait, that's not something new, you can already ask your friend warlock for a similar thing
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...asts&source=20

[Potta]

He's assuming the health gained from Light of the Martyr is coded similarly to SLT, so that the "gain" side is not counted in the logs.

[Deleted]

uplift - average 17k
fol - average 395l

Floopa the king of trolls. Sure would translate 1:1 in a real healing check encounter. AYY LMAO

Also please stop pretending AM absorbs anything close to the value that revival and tranq heal for in 9.9 out of 10 cases.

[Pasture]

Every healing thread Floopa is writing in, turns into Monk vs. the world.

I don't know why Floopa feels the need to spam the Holy Paladin thread. Floopa doesn't play Holy Paladin and is making lots of comments without any real insight into playing the spec at all.

[btard]

Aah, that makes sense.
But it will probably not be coded like that, seeing as we have talents to lower the 'health cost' and the heal benefits from critical strike, mastery, etc.

It's not the wow feature, rather WoL one
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=23
Spirit Link Totem - Spirit Link 2.39% 810.4k
Spirit Link Totem - Spirit Link (Damage) -2.39% -810.4k
Scada would add 810.4k as healing but ignore -810.4k of damage. At least the version that i used.

If WoL guys will code it wrong then you can snipe someone with 100k martyr, then heal yourself for another 100k for 200k total healing in logs.

[Tiberria]

Aah, that makes sense.
But it will probably not be coded like that, seeing as we have talents to lower the 'health cost' and the heal benefits from critical strike, mastery, etc.

Yes - the healing done will probably outscale the self damage, so I doubt it will be coded as damage transfer and not healing on logs. However, even if it doesn't show up on logs, the fact that you don't get credited with HPS for something on logs is a pretty terrible argument for not using it unless you care more about personal HPS numbers than you do about killing bosses. If you're sitting at 100% HP and someone else is at 20% HP when the raid is moving and you can't cast anything else, it's going to be a perfectly viable tool.

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uplift - average 17k
fol - average 395l

Floopa the king of trolls. Sure would translate 1:1 in a real healing check encounter. AYY LMAO

Also please stop pretending AM absorbs anything close to the value that revival and tranq heal for in 9.9 out of 10 cases.

AM is going to be a LOT stronger than Devo Aura is on live. For one thing, it will last 10 seconds (12 seconds with full artifact relics), and effect all 3 auras simultaneously with artifact talents.

We don't know how much it will increase the radius and effectiveness of auras, but I am assuming it will bump them to a 40 yard range, and that it will increase the magic damage reduction to 20%, the healing taken buff by all members of the raid to 20%, and the ticking healing to 5%/5 seconds.

Assuming that, you are looking at
- 20% raid wide magic damage reduction
- 20% raid wide healing taken increase (adding extra effective throughput to all healers in the raid during the duration)
- 5% HP/5 seconds. That should tick twice over 10 seconds. Assuming 550k average HP on live, that is worth ~1.1 million healing - basically close to half of the effective healing of a typical Tranq/HTT/Revival.

This proposed version of Aura Mastery is every bit as good as the throughput raid cooldowns if not better once you have all the artifact buffs to it.

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What will happen if Warcraft Logs credits the healing from Aura of Mercy to the player receiving the healing instead of the Paladin with the talent/with the cooldown up like the way Leech works?

Also, the +healing buff from Aura of Light is going to add additional healing to every healer in the raid - at least in stacked situations that gets credited to the other healers and not all credited to the Paladin. How are they going to appropriately tax the overall output to account for that? Basically, if a Paladin makes every other healer in the raid heal for 10% more (in an extreme situation where everyone is in a stack - but it will still be somewhere between 0% and 10% on a typical fight), and you have 5 healers in the raid, that talent adds the equivalent of 50% of the value of a full healer to the raid - only 10% of which will show up as credited to the Paladin. In that situation, the Paladin would need to do 40% less healing than every other healing spec to bring equal value. Obviously, the actual tax can't and won't be 40% - because only a percentage of healing will be in range of the Aura - but it's still going to be a significant throughput tax required.

[Leefa]

AM is going to be a LOT stronger than Devo Aura is on live. For one thing, it will last 10 seconds (12 seconds with full artifact relics), and effect all 3 auras simultaneously with artifact talents.

We don't know how much it will increase the radius and effectiveness of auras, but I am assuming it will bump them to a 40 yard range, and that it will increase the magic damage reduction to 20%, the healing taken buff by all members of the raid to 20%, and the ticking healing to 5%/5 seconds.

Please go read the fucking tooltips....idiot.
- Your auras are 10 yard range no matter what you do - AM only buffs the effect
- You pick 1 aura talent, not all 3 (Shocker, I know)
- You have no idea if that artifact trait is staying
- You have no idea wether there will be a relic that increases the duration

The tooltips tell you everything you need to know but its obvious you didnt even try reading them before posting your usual bullshit. But I guess you don't need to when you're trolling anyway.