[HOLY] Holy Sh*t!: Legion Edition

[teverin]

I got into the beta, played almost every class/spec and Holy Pally has been the most fun. Only thing is I find myself never using Holy Light. I use FoL all day in 5 mans and never have mana problems. Have others had the same experience? Does that style stay the same in Mythic+?

For now I use Beacon of Faith (myself and tank) and mainly use Flash of Light and Martyr since I get some of the flash healing from my 2nd beacon. LoD if there are a lot of melee.

[Davryn]

I got into the beta, played almost every class/spec and Holy Pally has been the most fun. Only thing is I find myself never using Holy Light. I use FoL all day in 5 mans and never have mana problems. Have others had the same experience? Does that style stay the same in Mythic+?

For now I use Beacon of Faith (myself and tank) and mainly use Flash of Light and Martyr since I get some of the flash healing from my 2nd beacon. LoD if there are a lot of melee.

Since mana matters very little in 5-mans, it makes sense to primarily use FoL. I would say Beacon of Virtue is miles ahead of the other two talents for 5-mans.

[Genzen Han]

Considering switching to Holy as my main in Legion (Disc Priest atm - kinda timid about the changes lol). Can someone either post or point me to a post with the basics of what Legion Holy Pally play will be like? For example, with Disc, it's something like 'use Penance on CD, use Power Word Shield on CD, Put Shadow Word Pain on as much as you can, then just apply Atonement or use Smite as you see fit'.

I'm looking to see how complex and how many spells Holy will be using in their core toolkit, since I found them to be quite manageable in WoD, and am hoping for not too much of a change.

[Lisabel]

I have similar questions to the poster above me, but from a slightly different perspective.

To anyone on the beta who has toyed around on more than one healer, can you draw any comparisons between them? Pros and cons, as well as comparisons along the lines of "Class A feels like Class B in X situation, but not in Y situation" (or even "Class A on beta feels like Class B on live for Z situation").

I'm leaning towards maining a holy priest, but I'm a) torn on what to play for an alt (it's between holy paladin and resto shaman) and b) we might be bringing in a player who's currently playing a resto shaman. We'd be bringing her into the guild on the caveat that she swaps to another class for Legion. Yes, she's perfectly okay with that.

[Deleted]

I have similar questions to the poster above me, but from a slightly different perspective.

To anyone on the beta who has toyed around on more than one healer, can you draw any comparisons between them? Pros and cons, as well as comparisons along the lines of "Class A feels like Class B in X situation, but not in Y situation" (or even "Class A on beta feels like Class B on live for Z situation").

I'm leaning towards maining a holy priest, but I'm a) torn on what to play for an alt (it's between holy paladin and resto shaman) and b) we might be bringing in a player who's currently playing a resto shaman. We'd be bringing her into the guild on the caveat that she swaps to another class for Legion. Yes, she's perfectly okay with that.

Healers are very much affected by changes happening not only to their class, but to classes that interact with them. For example, while Holy Priest were an ok healer in the WoD Beta(not resto druid level, but ok), the changes Blizzard made to PWS made Holy extinct and Disc OP.

Until tuning is final, there's very little conclusions to be made, but right now the most likely healer to be always used is resto shaman and the most unlikely one is disc priest(then again Disc was also awful before Divine Star was uncapped in SoO ptr and look where that got us)

[Davryn]

the most unlikely one is disc priest(then again Disc was also awful before Divine Star was uncapped in SoO ptr and look where that got us)

Could you clarify why you believe this? I had assumed that their damage contribution would make them very strong for cutting edge progress.

[Merilwen]

the point of holy was never to single target, but to aoe down with consecration, currently impossible in wod but possible in legion
good old aoe leveling

i might give ret a go but i dont want to start leveling ashbringer first, and holy cant be THAT far behind in dps, like i said as long as you dont single target mobs

That's what I kind of implied, you get more bang for your buck with as many mobs in consecration but from my own testing at 100-101 so far solo questing it's still a bit slower than Ret because I'm mainly waiting on my DPS CDs to come back up while I just auto swing for 2-3s. Plus it's been around 50/50 on getting good size packs together based on how spread out they are and other players in the same area.

Regardless I'm going to level Holy myself and pick up the other 2 weapons later on since I'm more worried about getting gimped on the relic side.

[Unir]

Remember too that as you add artifact power, your artifact level itself adds stamina and damage to the weapon as a flat increase. Starting at 102-ish I found Ret was faster with Ashbringer and not much arti power into my holy hammer.

Now that I'm 110, slightly better gear, and a decent amount of arti power into my holy weapon (while my Ashbringer still has zero arti power added), I would say I kill in holy about as fast as I do in Ret, if not slightly faster. Starting out, though, Ret was definitely faster.

[szandos]

To anyone on the beta who has toyed around on more than one healer, can you draw any comparisons between them? Pros and cons, as well as comparisons along the lines of "Class A feels like Class B in X situation, but not in Y situation" (or even "Class A on beta feels like Class B on live for Z situation").

Shamans feel like pulling my teeth in 5-mans, so much weak single target spam... Could be a tuning thing. Should be fine for raids though.

Holydins are much easier, but I can feel the lack of movement speed increase. Will prolly get worse once tanks get to know the instances and start to chain pull...

Holy priests are really good, feel like I always got something to handle the situation without resorting to spamming.

Only done some 5-mans and not overly many times, so don't take this too seriously. It is however a noticeable difference between the shammy and the holy ones.

[Thundering]

I got into the beta, played almost every class/spec and Holy Pally has been the most fun. Only thing is I find myself never using Holy Light. I use FoL all day in 5 mans and never have mana problems. Have others had the same experience? Does that style stay the same in Mythic+?

For now I use Beacon of Faith (myself and tank) and mainly use Flash of Light and Martyr since I get some of the flash healing from my 2nd beacon. LoD if there are a lot of melee.

Pretty boring just spaming flash=(

[Taeldorian]

Pretty boring just spaming flash=(

That's not all it is, not even close.

[Thundering]

That's not all it is, not even close.

Well teverin makes it sound like that.

[Deleted]

Could you clarify why you believe this? I had assumed that their damage contribution would make them very strong for cutting edge progress.

Damage contribution is good for cutting edge progress, but cutting a healer is even better.

When Disc was more attonement heavy it was also overpowered, for example in SoO a disc priest was around 135% healer and around 35% dps in the early progression. If Disc would of had half of their healing back then, they would of been useless.

Now for legion, Blizzard did mention that they will account for the dps disc is doing and have them do less healing as a result(that didn't happen in the testing but those were before any tuning). This directly contradicts cutting a healer, leaving disc in a losing spot.

[Deleted]

Well teverin makes it sound like that.

Holy has Always been about spamming holy light/flash of light. It's the bread and butter of the spec, the bass line of the tune. But it's not the whole story,and you know it.

[Genzen Han]

So it's still primarily a single-target spec? From what I can gather, I'd use Holy Shock on CD, then just use Holy Light/Flash of Light on whomever needed healing, with Light of Dawn being cast whenever groups of people might need healing at the same time? Are there any other spells we'd be using more or less on CD, or is everything else just major CDs?

[Davryn]

So it's still primarily a single-target spec? From what I can gather, I'd use Holy Shock on CD, then just use Holy Light/Flash of Light on whomever needed healing, with Light of Dawn being cast whenever groups of people might need healing at the same time? Are there any other spells we'd be using more or less on CD, or is everything else just major CDs?

You can add up to 4 other spells with short CDs to your rotation via talents, as seen: here http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/holy

These include:

Bestow Faith (large instant heal with a 5 second delay, 12 sec CD) OR Crusader strike (if talented, reduces remaining CD on holy shock and LoD, 4.5 sec CD)
Holy Prism (same as live, 20 sec CD)
Judgment (if talented, puts a healing buff on enemy target, 12 sec CD)
Beacon of Virtue (puts beacons on 4 people for 8 seconds, 12 sec CD)

You may not want to take these talents (and they might not be optimal), but the option is there.

[Lisabel]

Shamans feel like pulling my teeth in 5-mans, so much weak single target spam... Could be a tuning thing. Should be fine for raids though.

Holydins are much easier, but I can feel the lack of movement speed increase. Will prolly get worse once tanks get to know the instances and start to chain pull...

Holy priests are really good, feel like I always got something to handle the situation without resorting to spamming.

Only done some 5-mans and not overly many times, so don't take this too seriously. It is however a noticeable difference between the shammy and the holy ones.

Thanks for the response!

[Mikkah]

A few notes and first MMO post from my experience on my first beta after playing a holy pally for 11 years, since day 1! I still play the same toon with the same name for 11 years and have been playing in Convert to Raid for the past few years. On a funny note, I joined "Pals for Life" on Alpha which was the original guild for Leroy Jenkins. Haha. I am in the Hammer Squad on Beta since they are very active in running 5 man mythics.

My ilvl is 845 and I have done most, if not all mythics, except for the two dungeons that are gated in Suramar: The Arcway gated by a long quest line and Court of Stars gated by 6/12K Honored followed by another questline. I just finished both of them so have not had a chance to do the mythic but have done the heroic versions of the dungeons.

I have been using the following talents BF, DS, FoJ, AoM, DP (Holy Prism seems weak), SW, and BotL. Right or wrong, I go for a high crit rate and focus on HS critting and FoL triggering our Artifact Talent: Power of the Silver Hand. This allow us to store up HS's that hit for over 1M, or more! I am mainly using our instants (HS, LoD, SotM, BF) and back fill with FoL on the tank, since it is so mana efficient when the tank has beacon. This makes us more mobile and reactive, especially important with people are learning dungeons/raids and doing noob things.

There are times where the tank is under geared and taking so much damage I am afraid of healing others in the party. Kinda like Cata healing was, but not with the mana problems. Light of the Prism seems kinda weak, so have been using Divine Purpose for random pew pews which is alot of fun. I have been combining LoD with the trinket from Eye of Azshara which is a great AOE trinket. I think using HS and SotM on the non-tanks. SotM is awesome and is a totally different feel but takes away our health and does not feed our beacon, so I using it when everything else is on cooldown. One boss fights I use Tyr's Deliverance and Aura Mastery.

Now, here is where it gets interesting. I have been running with a strong group, and they don't need much healing. So I stand in melee, hit wings, and burst on the boss for 25 secs while my aura heals ticking away and using LoD on CD. There are times when I am the top dps during this burst and usually end the boss fight above the tank and maybe 1 of the weaker dps. This is the most fun I have had in a long time, as I am dpsing and healing in melee. I do NOT using Judgement of Light because I cannot give up Sanctified Wrath because it turns us into a Flash of Light cannon for 25 secs of burst healing every 2 mins. I fully realize this may not be the best approach or will it work in raid environments, but it is maximum fun.

I echo others that our Holy DPS is very adequate and I regularly pull 6-8 mobs and AOE then down as I single target them one at a time. I regularly do 150-200k dps where most dps my ilvl are doing 200-300k in dungeons but it is adequate. Suramar is a LONG grind and so are world quests to keep your Order Resources high to feed your class hall. I have finished the end of the Paladin Class quest line where it says to come back when Emerald Dream is unlocked. I have done both the Holy and Ret quest lines and have the Prot questline queued up, trying to do it as Holy DPS now that my toon is pretty strong.

I agree with the concerns here about mobility. I am healing DH tanks more than half of the time on beta and they have so many speed enhancements that it is irritating trying to keep up with them when they are doing a speed run. Cmon blizz, we feel like Larry Bird v Michael Jordan.

I guess my main concern is our AOE healing is week and we have no real "O Crap" AOE heal button unless we want to talent into Lights Hammer (but I like BF since it is new and 5 mans don't stand together) and Holy Prism (weak, weak, weak). So I tend to use a short burst of instant heals - HS, LoD, SotM, and BF. This style allows us to run around and heal more than we are used to, and then pop Avenging Wrath and become a FoL cannon for 25 secs. On the contrary, our burst healing is pretty good and when Holy Shock is critting and HS/LoD are giving back to back heals we feel like Captain America. Of course, it is RNG but to be honest the thrill is high when the party is in trouble and Captain America shows up! I consider myself an above average healer, not excellent, and I have been getting alot of complements on beta from tanks who say "I just had a (non-paladin) healer and he was not keeping me alive at times"... so I am confident you will like the 5 man experience. Raids, that will be another thing and I am sure many of the mythic raiders will fill you in there as Raids become available on beta. I am sure my raid build and gearing with need to be focused on more reliable and AOE healing, but who knows!

Speaking of beta, there is a new build coming as I type this. Feel free to ask questions. You will love the leveling experience, and the dungeon experience leading up to Mythics. Once you hit 110, it opens Suramar which is starting to grow on me. Stormheim ... awesome! Each zone gives you shoulder enchants at honored so they allow you to pick up extra items, which is fun.

Final comment: Since beta is down, I just did live servers for a few dungeon runs. Here is the difference:

Beta has a very nice cast bar under the player, miss that on live.
We dont buff in beat, no kings/might/wisdom. Forgot to do that on live.
LOD has a cast time on live, yuck!
Beta has more instants: LOD, SotM, and BF!

[Thundering]

A few notes and first MMO post from my experience on my first beta after playing a holy pally for 11 years, since day 1! I still play the same toon with the same name for 11 years and have been playing in Convert to Raid for the past few years. On a funny note, I joined "Pals for Life" on Alpha which was the original guild for Leroy Jenkins. Haha. I am in the Hammer Squad on Beta since they are very active in running 5 man mythics.

My ilvl is 845 and I have done most, if not all mythics, except for the two dungeons that are gated in Suramar: The Arcway gated by a long quest line and Court of Stars gated by 6/12K Honored followed by another questline. I just finished both of them so have not had a chance to do the mythic but have done the heroic versions of the dungeons.

I have been using the following talents BF, DS, FoJ, AoM, DP (Holy Prism seems weak), SW, and BotL. Right or wrong, I go for a high crit rate and focus on HS critting and FoL triggering our Artifact Talent: Power of the Silver Hand. This allow us to store up HS's that hit for over 1M, or more! I am mainly using our instants (HS, LoD, SotM, BF) and back fill with FoL on the tank, since it is so mana efficient when the tank has beacon. This makes us more mobile and reactive, especially important with people are learning dungeons/raids and doing noob things.

There are times where the tank is under geared and taking so much damage I am afraid of healing others in the party. Kinda like Cata healing was, but not with the mana problems. Light of the Prism seems kinda weak, so have been using Divine Purpose for random pew pews which is alot of fun. I have been combining LoD with the trinket from Eye of Azshara which is a great AOE trinket. I think using HS and SotM on the non-tanks. SotM is awesome and is a totally different feel but takes away our health and does not feed our beacon, so I using it when everything else is on cooldown. One boss fights I use Tyr's Deliverance and Aura Mastery.

Now, here is where it gets interesting. I have been running with a strong group, and they don't need much healing. So I stand in melee, hit wings, and burst on the boss for 25 secs while my aura heals ticking away and using LoD on CD. There are times when I am the top dps during this burst and usually end the boss fight above the tank and maybe 1 of the weaker dps. This is the most fun I have had in a long time, as I am dpsing and healing in melee. I do NOT using Judgement of Light because I cannot give up Sanctified Wrath because it turns us into a Flash of Light cannon for 25 secs of burst healing every 2 mins. I fully realize this may not be the best approach or will it work in raid environments, but it is maximum fun.

I echo others that our Holy DPS is very adequate and I regularly pull 6-8 mobs and AOE then down as I single target them one at a time. I regularly do 150-200k dps where most dps my ilvl are doing 200-300k in dungeons but it is adequate. Suramar is a LONG grind and so are world quests to keep your Order Resources high to feed your class hall. I have finished the end of the Paladin Class quest line where it says to come back when Emerald Dream is unlocked. I have done both the Holy and Ret quest lines and have the Prot questline queued up, trying to do it as Holy DPS now that my toon is pretty strong.

I agree with the concerns here about mobility. I am healing DH tanks more than half of the time on beta and they have so many speed enhancements that it is irritating trying to keep up with them when they are doing a speed run. Cmon blizz, we feel like Larry Bird v Michael Jordan.

I guess my main concern is our AOE healing is week and we have no real "O Crap" AOE heal button unless we want to talent into Lights Hammer (but I like BF since it is new and 5 mans don't stand together) and Holy Prism (weak, weak, weak). So I tend to use a short burst of instant heals - HS, LoD, SotM, and BF. This style allows us to run around and heal more than we are used to, and then pop Avenging Wrath and become a FoL cannon for 25 secs. On the contrary, our burst healing is pretty good and when Holy Shock is critting and HS/LoD are giving back to back heals we feel like Captain America. Of course, it is RNG but to be honest the thrill is high when the party is in trouble and Captain America shows up! I consider myself an above average healer, not excellent, and I have been getting alot of complements on beta from tanks who say "I just had a (non-paladin) healer and he was not keeping me alive at times"... so I am confident you will like the 5 man experience. Raids, that will be another thing and I am sure many of the mythic raiders will fill you in there as Raids become available on beta. I am sure my raid build and gearing with need to be focused on more reliable and AOE healing, but who knows!

Speaking of beta, there is a new build coming as I type this. Feel free to ask questions. You will love the leveling experience, and the dungeon experience leading up to Mythics. Once you hit 110, it opens Suramar which is starting to grow on me. Stormheim ... awesome! Each zone gives you shoulder enchants at honored so they allow you to pick up extra items, which is fun.

Final comment: Since beta is down, I just did live servers for a few dungeon runs. Here is the difference:

Beta has a very nice cast bar under the player, miss that on live.
We dont buff in beat, no kings/might/wisdom. Forgot to do that on live.
LOD has a cast time on live, yuck!
Beta has more instants: LOD, SotM, and BF!

Thx for the good explanation, i wounder is beacon of faith used at all? if that talent is redundant what if they merged it whit the removed beacon of the savior?

Holy has Always been about spamming holy light/flash of light. It's the bread and butter of the spec, the bass line of the tune. But it's not the whole story,and you know it.

Well its not about what i think in this case its about what teverin thinks and if its true its kinda sad=P

Aswell since cata and forward holy light has kinda been redundant since mana hasent really been an issue for ages and i miss having mana as a stragical tool so you cant spam flash as a example.

[Taeldorian]

Thx for the good explanation, i wounder is beacon of faith used at all? if that talent is redundant what if they merged it whit the removed beacon of the savior?


Well its not about what i think in this case its about what teverin thinks and if its true its kinda sad=P

Beacon of faith is a bit undertuned atm so not many people are taking it. The most competitive talent on that tier so far is BotL for raids and virtue for 5 mans.

Teverin didn't say all we do is FoL. He said he loves spamming FoL which is what we do now anyway. He didn't say he only uses FoL though. Keep in mind, that's not all we do and if that's what he's doing all the time it's wrong. I mean if it works for him then it's obviously fine but the wonderful thing about holy in legion is that we have more tools to use and a large majority of our toolkit is instant (I love this). The person you quoted has it down right for the most part but there are different ways of playing holy which is fantastic. Don't want to stand in melee? Take BotL. Want to stand in melee and do damage at the same time and provide small amounts of healing? Take JoL and CM.

TLDR: He didn't say he only uses FoL he just said he enjoys spamming it. The person you quoted already stated a more efficient way of healing. Either way works though, that comes down to preference. He did say that he uses other abilities btw.

For the most part though, I stand in melee. The talents I use in mythic dungeons/5mans are: beacon of virtue (really strong) as well as holy avenger (really good burst healing), sanctified wrath, and bestow faith. For the aura row I use aura of mercy. We have a lot of options though, which is great. This talent setup has proven to be optimal for me personally.

Side note: I've been standing in melee so much on beta I do it on live without even realizing it.