[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Deleted]

Clarified my original post. I meant that I was doing just as much with Darkglare as with Demonbolt/Soul Conduit, which is weird to me since it would mean that there would be no reason altogether to pick those two talents over Darkglare. If Darkglare is competitive with those two talents on single target, then that'd only get compounded with more adds in any given encounter, effectively making darkglare the only viable talent?. I just have a hard time figuring out why one would go with demonbolt/soul conduit over Darkglare as it stands.

Maybe it's because I have really low haste (9%) and I'm not summoning enough imps for demonbolt to matter?

But DPS isn;t the only consideration. The Darkglare has a cooldown, plus it is tied to Doomed targets and Demonic Empowerment, , I'd suggest that it's therefore less useful for "kill this priority add quick" than Demon Bolt for example

As I said, it's a common practise for Blizzard to make tier talents approximately equivalent, so it should come as no surprise (apart from the surprise that they've actually managed it, which they often don't!) - roughly equal damage, different situational usefulness.

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does anyone have a video of the bad pet AI. I want to get a feel on it. I know they don't target swap if the previous target is alive.

Just try it, it's hard to explain, easy to experience. The guardian pets just aren't reliable, it's easier to think of them as DOTs with legs

The felguard has all the usual pathing problems that pets have, as well as being (obviously) melee. I don;t think they've significantly improved the AI, and I played the Demonic Pact raid bitch for a while in Wrath, and it weas always a problem, particularly in any instance where you jumped down places, or got teleported into "other dimensions" (as it were)


Incidentally, is anyone really still holding out hope that demonology is going to get any changes or buffs to make it viable compared to destruction or even affliction as a progression/Mythic spec?

The last few patche smake it obvious we're very much in a small-tweaks-only phase - I can;t see them handing out big buffs or chaning spells to instants this late in the game.

Maybe after they see hardly anyone running demo in raids outside of LFR and the few diehards pulling really bad numbers - a couple of months too late when we've all levelled our destruction artifacts.

[Smog]

Incidentally, is anyone really still holding out hope that demonology is going to get any changes or buffs to make it viable compared to destruction or even affliction as a progression/Mythic spec?

No. Most of us have been saying this since tuning began.

It's going to launch in its current terrible state and then probably get stupidly overtuned in the first or second patch to compensate. A major toolkit / design change probably isn't happening this expansion for this or any other spec.

[elcapone]

But DPS isn;t the only consideration. The Darkglare has a cooldown, plus it is tied to Doomed targets and Demonic Empowerment, , I'd suggest that it's therefore less useful for "kill this priority add quick" than Demon Bolt for example

As I said, it's a common practise for Blizzard to make tier talents approximately equivalent, so it should come as no surprise (apart from the surprise that they've actually managed it, which they often don't!) - roughly equal damage, different situational usefulness.

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Just try it, it's hard to explain, easy to experience. The guardian pets just aren't reliable, it's easier to think of them as DOTs with legs

The felguard has all the usual pathing problems that pets have, as well as being (obviously) melee. I don;t think they've significantly improved the AI, and I played the Demonic Pact raid bitch for a while in Wrath, and it weas always a problem, particularly in any instance where you jumped down places, or got teleported into "other dimensions" (as it were)


Incidentally, is anyone really still holding out hope that demonology is going to get any changes or buffs to make it viable compared to destruction or even affliction as a progression/Mythic spec?

The last few patche smake it obvious we're very much in a small-tweaks-only phase - I can;t see them handing out big buffs or chaning spells to instants this late in the game.

Maybe after they see hardly anyone running demo in raids outside of LFR and the few diehards pulling really bad numbers - a couple of months too late when we've all levelled our destruction artifacts.

I only tried it on target dummies but since they are close together, couldnt tell. Demo seems pretty solid in pvp though, I did bgs and saw a lot of potential. spreading doom, large number of imps, darkglare talent, and the pvp talents.

[Deleted]

Demo is fine if you don't have to move, don't have to AOE, don't have to burst down priority targets, don't need to do cleave damage and your pets aren;t screwed by the wonky AI.

Therein lies the problem, raid bosses require any or all of those things.

[jayx10]

I was arguing with someone who claimed that Demonology was one of the top DPS specs at 110 in tier gear. I called them crazy and they told me to "look up the sims." Does anyone know what simulation results they're talking about? I've looked around a bit, and I can't find any sims for 110.

[Gnarilex]

I was arguing with someone who claimed that Demonology was one of the top DPS specs at 110 in tier gear. I called them crazy and they told me to "look up the sims." Does anyone know what simulation results they're talking about? I've looked around a bit, and I can't find any sims for 110.

That person was probably looking at 100 pre-patch sims. With t18 and the class trinket demo is insanely strong right now. But it also plays nothing like it will at max level with the artifact. At 110 demo is considerably weak, at least according to the beta testers in this thread.

[Turturin the Warlock]

That person was probably looking at 100 pre-patch sims. With t18 and the class trinket demo is insanely strong right now. But it also plays nothing like it will at max level with the artifact. At 110 demo is considerably weak, at least according to the beta testers in this thread.

That's not what's been said. In fact when reliable sims are out for patchwerk, I'm pretty confident demo will be fine.

What many of us have said here is that demo is not looking like a good progression spec because:
- It has trouble with target swaps, b/c of ramp up and b/c guardian pets don't swap reliably
- Its burst AoE, while good, gives up a lot of single target dmg and multiple other specs don't need to make that tradeoff
- Its cleave is not great
- In real progression raiding, only patchwerk is patchwerk, and he's not in this tier.

[Baconeggcheese]

That person was probably looking at 100 pre-patch sims. With t18 and the class trinket demo is insanely strong right now. But it also plays nothing like it will at max level with the artifact. At 110 demo is considerably weak, at least according to the beta testers in this thread.

It's not so much that its weak, so much as its toolkit isn't great.

[Gnarilex]

Ah, right. My mistake.

Pets

• Hunter, Shaman, Mage, Warlock, and Death Knight pets have been trained to move around more smoothly and better adjust to player pathing when the player is moving

Is this hotfix just smoothing out the jarring pathing pets have had for years or does it have a noticeable impact on how the spec plays?

[Smog]

Is this hotfix just smoothing out the jarring pathing pets have had for years or does it have a noticeable impact on how the spec plays?

I played for a few hours last night and didn't notice any real difference in the way guardians behave or function. I believe this is just a pathing fix.

I think it would require a considerable amount of work to completely overall pet and especially guardian AI so that they stop behaving like drunken infants: much more than something that would be shoved into a patch of minor fixes.

[Deleted]

I actually think, guardians behave much worse now than before. Happened to me multiple times that I attack one mob and my blueberry pathes to the last mob that I killed, miles away. Had to cast 3 hardcasts to make it change its mind...

Also had my infernal stupidly run back and forth between 2 mobs that were pretty far apart, effectively trapping it in the middle between the 2 without a single point of dmg...

Overall - as in a lot of cases - I think Blizz made the guardians now move smother but still to places they shouldnt go

[Deleted]

I actually think, guardians behave much worse now than before. Happened to me multiple times that I attack one mob and my blueberry pathes to the last mob that I killed, miles away. Had to cast 3 hardcasts to make it change its mind...

Also had my infernal stupidly run back and forth between 2 mobs that were pretty far apart, effectively trapping it in the middle between the 2 without a single point of dmg...

Overall - as in a lot of cases - I think Blizz made the guardians now move smother but still to places they shouldnt go

Out of curiosity: You did turn off pet assist, didn't you? If you didn't, having that infernal go full retard on two mobs you're attacking is no surprise at all.

Also, neither the blueberry, nor the infernal are guardians. They're pets. You control them directly.

[Deleted]

I actually think, guardians behave much worse now than before. Happened to me multiple times that I attack one mob and my blueberry pathes to the last mob that I killed, miles away. Had to cast 3 hardcasts to make it change its mind...

Also had my infernal stupidly run back and forth between 2 mobs that were pretty far apart, effectively trapping it in the middle between the 2 without a single point of dmg...

Overall - as in a lot of cases - I think Blizz made the guardians now move smother but still to places they shouldnt go

Imps and dread stalkers are guardians. Doomguard, infernal, vw, etc are pets. Pets have a pet bar and you can issue commands to them, guardians you can't.

[Deleted]

They really need to implement an AI rule system for this. Like "Don't switch targets until it's been focused for X seconds" or "Don't switch target unless charge is available" etc. But I guess that would fall under Blizzard's new "unfair advantage" philisophy. Because some people can read while others can't.

I'm not bitter.

[elcapone]

does demonic empowerment sill enlarge my demons especially felguard? I noticed in beta videos but I tried it in live, they didnt increase in size.

[jayx10]

does demonic empowerment sill enlarge my demons especially felguard? I noticed in beta videos but I tried it in live, they didnt increase in size.

Yes, but only a little bit. They scaled the aura effect and the size of empowered demons way down compared to what it was in the alpha.

[elcapone]

Yes, but only a little bit. They scaled the aura effect and the size of empowered demons way down compared to what it was in the alpha.

shieeet that was main the reason I was gonna stick with Demo and it made casting DE bearable. Now when I cast it, it doesnt feel like I am doing anything.

[Deleted]

Imps and dread stalkers are guardians. Doomguard, infernal, vw, etc are pets. Pets have a pet bar and you can issue commands to them, guardians you can't.

Only if you take GoSup are the DG/INF pets, they remain a guardian in any other situation.

[MisterBigglez]

With http://www.wowhead.com/item=132369/w...rior-summoning I was able to (with the pvp premade) reduce the cd by half each time after testing for about 20 mins on a dummy. Each time grimoire of service was ready, so was summon doomguard/infernal. Once you unlock the 2nd legendary slot and use http://www.wowhead.com/item=132379/s...spite&spec=102 you will roughly have a minimum of 28% uptime based on fight length. With more optimal stats this will increase by a significant amount as the pvp premade only has 11% haste

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I would like to mention aswell that with Doom Doubled, you will know when it will proc as the icon on the target will display the damage, and it will deal the damage is says everytime. What I found curious is that if you used Doom and it didn't proc, you could keep refreshing until it did, and when the duration ended from your first cast, it would deal damage as though it procced Doom Doubled and then once Doom fell off, it would deal normal damage.

[Deleted]

How bad is targeting switching / cleaving with demo?
i mean i understand it doesnt compare with destro since havoc is the ideal spell for that kind of stuff.. but with some talents like demonbolt, implosion, synergy grimoire it should work..at least on paper. Synergy procs quite often and 40% dmg boost to thalkiel and implosion doesnt seem smthing to laugh at. Also if the adds spawn away from boss you could use the doomguard so you dont have the felguard to run the marathon from mob to mob.

Can demo pull its weight as far target switching goes or its just better to forget it and just tunnel boss, cause it cant do anything else anyway?