[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Yorindesarin]

So, to put it into a simple equation, you'd like to see a DPS reduction for Demo locks during movement of roughly 20% instead of 60%(numbers are quite random on my end, sorry), let alone a spike of somewhere between those values depending on how everything lines up. That sounds reasonable.

I think Furty put how we should see Demonic Empowerment quite nicely on his stream yesterday; it's literally Soulburn: Haunt. Meaning that it's A: Mandatory to keep up at all times and B: our "DoTs" (being pets) hit for next to nothing when it isn't up, and do -normal-, not a ton, of damage while it is up. (hope I didn't misquote him, apologies if I did and obviously feel free to correct me)

Indeed. When you think about it. Having your Felguard/some imps or a felguard/dreadstalkers w/ empowerment whilst moving (if it was instant) is better than say having them up with no buff. Yes you still lose DPS because you haven't got 3x dreadstalkers and 6+ imps out (with improved dreadstalkers) out and empowered. But you aren't as I like to say hamstrung.

And I definitely agree with Furty on the DE point.

[Gaidax]

Shard generation is tight though, every 2 seconds you move is literally a Soul Shard you lose, which will impact your next summoning cycle a lot and you need these things up badly.

[Yorindesarin]

If we look at a heavy movement fight:

Power Trip really depends on the power of the Imps. I expect them to be weak minions thus the increase in dps from imps is going to be low aswell. If we move allot, we don't cast many SB's and thus HoG's. Reducing the damage Power Trip adds when there are not allot of Imps. Hand of Doom is an AoE talent thus Soul Harvest remains the only other option.

Demonbolt is useless in heavy movement, both other options are instant or passive.

Shadowflame at L15 is the best movement talent there is for generating shards.

If we look at low movement fight I'd probably pick Power Trip + Demon Bolt + Shadowy Inspiration.

True it is dependant on imp damage etc. But I'd imagine having them up a flat % etc is more worth than being able to shard gen.

And yeah inquisitor/DS would pull ahead in heavy movement fights.

[Duckz0rs]

Shard generation is tight though, every 2 seconds you move is literally a Soul Shard you lose, which will impact your next summoning cycle a lot and you need these things up badly.

That should be solvable by casting Demonwrath, right? As it has a seemingly high shard gen and is castable during movement? (Maybe I should add the "I don't have alpha access" as a temporary signature instead of clarifying it over and over :P )

[Yorindesarin]

If so, the worst case scenario is that you are forced to move just after casting HoG. If your movement comes just after casting DE, you will lose very little dps. If the movement comes just before casting HoG, you will lose a moderate ammount of dps. If it comes before summoning your stalkers, you will do very little dps whilst moving, but will be able to make up for that by having optimum DE usage when you stop moving. Admittedly I am not on alpha but this is what I am taking from what I have seen. The only time we will significantly suffer is if we have to move halfway through a DE cast. This would be unlucky, and would be no different to having to move halfway through a Chaos Bolt cast, (at which point destro has only immolate doing damage on the boss and is if anything suffering much more)

Whilst this is the case sometimes. Dreadstalkers having a cooldown means that you still lose out on optimal DE up time. By the time you finish moving + cast HoG possibly keep Doom up and then DE your dreadstalkers are at around 6-7 seconds or less uptime left. Not ideal when the buff lasts their full duration to begin with. Though you can arguably weave DE into the rotation due to its charges. But again that feels wrong due to inefficient cast/GCD usage imo.

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That should be solvable by casting Demonwrath, right? As it has a seemingly high shard gen and is castable during movement? (Maybe I should add the "I don't have alpha access" as a temporary signature instead of clarifying it over and over :P )

Its high on 4+ targets and with at least 5 demons up. Otherwise the shard gen can be complete arse. :/

[Viggers]

Whilst this is the case sometimes. Dreadstalkers having a cooldown means that you still lose out on optimal DE up time. By the time you finish moving + cast HoG possibly keep Doom up and then DE your dreadstalkers are at around 6-7 seconds or less uptime left. Not ideal when the buff lasts their full duration to begin with. Though you can arguably weave DE into the rotation due to its charges. But again that feels wrong due to inefficient cast/GCD usage imo.

Of course. No (ranged) class will be doing 100% optimal dps whilst moving, and nor should they. The only thing that matters is HOW MUCH of that dps is lost. Obviously it will depend largly on final balancing, but IMO from a mechanical point of view, demo is punished by movement about the right amount. 6 seconds (using 50% for arguments sake) of DE uptime on your stalkers instead of 12 (for just that one stalker cast) is perfectly acceptable, and this is assuming 6 seconds of movement! 6 seconds doesnt sound like much, but in all honesty if it takes more than two seconds for you to move out of the poop then you have bigger problems. Any periods of movement lasting longer than this are almost always on a timer that you can plan for.

[Yorindesarin]

Of course. No (ranged) class will be doing 100% optimal dps whilst moving, and nor should they. The only thing that matters is HOW MUCH of that dps is lost. Obviously it will depend largly on final balancing, but IMO from a mechanical point of view, demo is punished by movement about the right amount. 6 seconds of DE uptime on your stalkers instead of 12 (for just that one stalker cast) is perfectly acceptable, and this is assuming 6 seconds of movement! 6 seconds doesnt sound like much, but in all honesty if it takes more than two seconds for you to move out of the poop then you have bigger problems. Any periods of movement lasting longer than this are almost always on a timer that you can plan for.

Eh. I wouldn't say its perfectly acceptable at all really. Because its not just 6 seconds on your stalkers. You also lost approx 4-6 seconds of felguard DE as well remember. And its not like DE is something you can just swipe aside and go "Its okay I didnt have DE up". The damage I get from DE right now due to mastery is 60+% on flat damage increase for pets. Then they gain 60% haste and 60% health... 6 seconds of down time may not seem like much. But you have to factor in it won't be just once that it happens. It could be 2-10 times where you aren't able to actually do dps. Add in that this could happen during a priority add spawn and you wipe due to ridiculously low damage on the add... How well do you think you can say to your raid leaders/raid mates "Its not my fault I had to move so much."? Because imo if Demonology is penalized this much (which you are down playing it to equate to other classes movement abilities which it is much much more than) why take a demo lock...

Having all our damage be tied up in casts and being penalized for not being able to get those casts off is a BIG BIG thing. Mages/Hunters/Shamans/Boomkins/Spriests all have base abilities they can use even at a slight DPS loss to make up for movement. We have shadowflame. A talent for our movement. Which is fair enough its a nice talent that I utilize quite alot. But shadowflame isn't going to make up the 6+ seconds of DE down time I had. Add in the fact I probably needed to use Thiks consumption too...? You get where I'm going right...

And Im only level 102 outside of dungeons my mastery is 63%. Not inside. Inside Id imagine it would be a lot more.

[Viggers]

I get what your saying, and thats why I mentioned that balance is going to play a huge part. If blizz shift some damage away from DE then movement will be much less punishing for example. I am guessing that atm DE feels like a mini cooldown, which I would guess if not the intent - especially in early gear levels of mastery!

Again, based on current numbers of course I agree with you, but in alpha numbers are actually irrelevant (63% mastery at level 102 sounds extremely high) and I think that the mechanics of how we are punished by movement will probably end up being ok.

[Yorindesarin]

I get what your saying, and thats why I mentioned that balance is going to play a huge part. If blizz shift some damage away from DE then movement will be much less punishing for example. I am guessing that atm DE feels like a mini cooldown, which I would guess if not the intent - especially in early gear levels of mastery!

Again, based on current numbers of course I agree with you, but in alpha numbers are actually irrelevant (63% mastery at level 102 sounds extremely high) and I think that the mechanics of how we are punished by movement will probably end up being ok.

They may do. But I'd as I keep mentioning at least like to see them try something different. Even if they go back on it. I'd rather they try as many things as possible in beta/alpha than get to live and have to make the changes there.

[Deleted]

I think I'd prefer DE wasn't a maintenance buff on temp minions, but acted like a mini bloodlust for your minions maybe 1/min or 1/30sec. Or acted like a dmg boost aura cast on myself, that way when I summon new minions they get the remaining duration of the buff instantly.

Power Trip should probably be moved to baseline OR the default should be all non-Wild Imp minions. It looks like it devalues talents like Service + Inquisitor allot if you don't take Power Trip.

[Yorindesarin]

I think I'd prefer DE wasn't a maintenance buff on temp minions, but acted like a mini bloodlust for your minions maybe 1/min or 1/30sec. Or acted like a dmg boost aura cast on myself, that way when I summon new minions they get the remaining duration of the buff instantly.

Power Trip should probably be moved to baseline OR the default should be all non-Wild Imp minions. It looks like it devalues talents like Service + Inquisitor allot if you don't take Power Trip.

Hm I can see where you are coming from with that yeah. Also... My mastery at 110 with the scaling buff is 31% in dungeons. o.O

[Deleted]

Hm I can see where you are coming from with that yeah. Also... My mastery at 110 with the scaling buff is 31% in dungeons. o.O

AFAIK every time you level the required amount for 1% mastery goes up.
I could be wrong but 99% sure this is how it works.
Meaning you will lose Mastery every time you level unless you get substantial gear upgrades



Regarding movement.
I think we are getting to hung up on made up numbers at the moment.
I personally think Demo wont suffer as much as Destruction for movement heavy encounters but will still ofc suffer to an extent.


What i dislike (which i believe most agree) is the fact that our main generator and spenders are all cast time abilities.
Also our Maintenance buff is also a cast time, despite being a relatively low cast its still a cast.
IMO Dreadstalkers would really benefit from being instant cast, simply because the ability has both a resource cost and charge time.


It feels like cast times have been slapped on every ability to "test the water" though.

[Vayra]

I'm a bit concerned about Demos viability in rated PvP (3s/RBGs). Ontop of most of their spells having cast times, they are long (2sec). I'm curious - what magic school is Hand of Guldan, and Summon Dreadstalkers? If HoG is shadowflame (Fire/shadow school) that help's a lot. Ex - can bait out a kick with shadow/doom bolt and then free cast HoG. Pet suitability is also a concern. You can't really focus down BM pets currently but felguard gets shredded like wet tissue paper from just spread pressure (not even being focused).



Edit:

Oooo. http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=212628 making dreadstalker summon instant is fantastic. Interesting.

[Deleted]

i totally agree, they need to make some of the spells instant. i would be fine if they kept HoG and call dreadstalkers as they are now but made DE instant bcoz as we get more traits from our artifacts, the loss from our pets while moving will only increase and an instant DE will help counter it a bit.

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Edit:

Oooo. http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=212628 making dreadstalker summon instant is fantastic. Interesting.

ironically, that would be a perfect replacement for demonic servitude imo.

[Vayra]

IMO Dreadstalkers would really benefit from being instant cast, simply because the ability has both a resource cost and charge time.

I don't think they will do that simply because they already have it as a PvP talent in http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=212628 - I'm not sure they would be able to make HoG instant again. Empowerment might be the only realistic option (if it's even considered).

[wooters]

You should see your pets damage WITHOUT DE vs WITH DE. And then come and tell me that passive pet damage unbuffed is perfectly fine.

Are you saying during a movement heavy fight you can`t find time to cast 1.5 second empower? that's ...impressive. a skilled player can easily empower, then proceed to run for another 10-12 sec..demonwrath, HOGing + whatever instant and empower here and there as he goes. you also states felguard dies and demowrath are useless. when this is just likely an issue with tuning..

I think demo will be strong on single target movement fights

[Barnabas]

The echoing cries of it's too hard is being heard loud and clear. At least in pvp it'll be dumbed down for everyone. I like the risk/reward of the current setup. If you actually pay attention you get rewarded. If not well then this is you

[Deleted]

I believe the majority of responses referring to DPS while moving is in regards to PvE not PvP.
Which means slapping a cast time on a spell that already has a Charge time and a resource cost is not Risky but infact just clunky. :P

[Terryn]

I would like to see one of HOG, Felstalkers, or empowerment instant. With that note I think shadow flame being an instant cast that generates shards is going to make it mandatory on 95% of occasions, the only time where it won't be is a patchwerk fight. Current state of things, I don't see any reason to NOT take it unless there is going to be a council fight of some kind.

I would also like to see doom slightly reworked to be 40 or 60 seconds long, with ticks on the 20 second mark. Having to manage this so tightly is a little much, especially on the council fights.

[Yorindesarin]

Are you saying during a movement heavy fight you can`t find time to cast 1.5 second empower? that's ...impressive. a skilled player can easily empower, then proceed to run for another 10-12 sec..demonwrath, HOGing + whatever instant and empower here and there as he goes. you also states felguard dies and demowrath are useless. when this is just likely an issue with tuning..

I think demo will be strong on single target movement fights

Quite the opposite. I can AND do manage to play the class to its full potential to the best of my ability. However you seem to have missed the point. Its not "Oh you can't cast a 1.5 second cast" its the fact that you can not and will NOT be able to have enough demons/buff up time to be able to counter your DPS loss due to movement. Its pretty simple really. If you have played any of the dungeons with a boss that has a knockback/a mechanic you have to move from you can see easily how irritating it is that you just setup your dreadstalkers and imps your shadowflame is weaved perfectly doom is up you start to empower oh... Knocked back half way through. By the time you can try again you've lost the demons you have setup or they are really low up times in which case you may as well prepare to try again.

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The echoing cries of it's too hard is being heard loud and clear. At least in pvp it'll be dumbed down for everyone. I like the risk/reward of the current setup. If you actually pay attention you get rewarded. If not well then this is you

Its not hard. At all really. Infact I find it quite easy to play. But that doesn't make it a good idea to have a spec based around a build up of damage that is entirely reliant upon casts. Get over yourself really.