[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Coffeh]

Demonwrath isn't the primary AoE damage, its just for building shards for additional HoGs and does so very quickly with 3+ targets. Your main damage is coming from empowered Inquisitor and Felstorm (x2 from service). Remember you don't have power trip in this scenario so the only pets affected by empowerment will be inquisitor, felguard, and service felguard or 1 dreadstalker. The rotation looks more or less like inquisitor -> HoG -> empower -> demonwrath/felstorm -> hog -> demonwrath -> HoG -> repeat. It may be worthwhile to keep dreadstalkers on cooldown as well but if they aren't getting empowered anyways it may not be worth it. I honestly haven't played much with implosion either because tracking the amount of imps you have is basically impossible atm.

I guess I just don't see a 45 second cooldown on a pet as a great design for a spec's primary aoe element.

One thing I did fail to consider is that all those Demonwraths generating soul shards for HoGs will end up summoning a lot of imps. So you can get off a bunch of implosions over and over. So, you can throw that in the mix as well. Plus life tapping because Demonwrath will suck your mana dry. It's just a lot of micro-management, especially compared to most classes who's aoe output consists essentially of 'press my aoe button'.


I do have a question about Implosion. Is that 100% spell power damage per imp? Not in total? I know Demonwrath's damage isn't affected by the number of demons involved so maybe Implosion isn't either? If so...that's a very weak talent. In an aoe situation what would be the reason to use HoG with more than 1 shard if 1 imp blowing up does the same as 4?

[Fearsom1992]

Is it just me or does Demo feel like its messing something? idk I can't put my finger on it but I feel like the rotation is missing something and I hate how shadowflame makes our rotation feel comfy while the other 2 not so much.

[nerdzrool]

I guess I just don't see a 45 second cooldown on a pet as a great design for a spec's primary aoe element.

One thing I did fail to consider is that all those Demonwraths generating soul shards for HoGs will end up summoning a lot of imps. So you can get off a bunch of implosions over and over. So, you can throw that in the mix as well. Plus life tapping because Demonwrath will suck your mana dry. It's just a lot of micro-management, especially compared to most classes who's aoe output consists essentially of 'press my aoe button'.


I do have a question about Implosion. Is that 100% spell power damage per imp? Not in total? I know Demonwrath's damage isn't affected by the number of demons involved so maybe Implosion isn't either? If so...that's a very weak talent. In an aoe situation what would be the reason to use HoG with more than 1 shard if 1 imp blowing up does the same as 4?

It's part of our burst AoE rotation, like cataclysm on live. Many specs have a similar cooldown (DnD, Bladestorm, Frozen Orb), and it being attached to a pet fits the new class identity wonderfully. Mana is a major concern for both specs on alpha atm and is one thing I really hope gets changed, i just outlined my thoughts on it here http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4183?page=5#89.

[Deleted]

I do have a question about Implosion. Is that 100% spell power damage per imp? Not in total? I know Demonwrath's damage isn't affected by the number of demons involved so maybe Implosion isn't either? If so...that's a very weak talent. In an aoe situation what would be the reason to use HoG with more than 1 shard if 1 imp blowing up does the same as 4?

Implosion is per imp so its definitely better to use a 4 shard HoG.

[Gaidax]

Is it just me or does Demo feel like its messing something? idk I can't put my finger on it but I feel like the rotation is missing something and I hate how shadowflame makes our rotation feel comfy while the other 2 not so much.

It's not, if anything - I think it can use more focus, it's all over the place now and imp farm is not my idea of being a powerful summoner. I'd rather have all the imps scrapped and replaced by another cool and powerful demon under my command, for example Jailer would be great.

[bloodmoth13]

No. I want permanent minions, not another DPS cooldown to babysit.

Pit lord as DPS cooldown: deal 200% of your total damage for 15 seconds on a 10 minute CD
Pit lord as passive pet: deal 15% of your total damage

As a passive it would just eat into your power budget and be a flashy thing that follows you, its model would need to be scaled down to the point it looks like you have a pack mule following you, like literally the size of a horse, no actually it would probably need to be smaller, hardly filling the fantasy of enslaving an immensely powerful demon
As a cooldown it can deal incredible damage deserving of a pit lord and have a impactful model (because its a 'high' moment that needs to convey important info), filling the fantasy of summoning the most terrifying demons of the burning legion

For something as powerful as a pit lord it would need to be a 10 minute cooldown, something once a fight, not something that follows you about or something that you use every 3 minutes.

only alternative i could think of is having it as a rotational resource spender (to replace fel stalkers) that briefly opens a portal big enough for a pit lords torso that it uses to smash the ground with its weapon before being jerked back to the nether, this way it can both feel powerful and be frequent, but im going to assume that that is still not good enough...

[Deleted]

It's not, if anything - I think it can use more focus, it's all over the place now and imp farm is not my idea of being a powerful summoner. I'd rather have all the imps scrapped and replaced by another cool and powerful demon under my command, for example Jailer would be great.

I agree, summoning a zoo of imps is not my idea of being a powerful demonic summoner. It's just lame.

[PickleballAce]

People are still going on with the Pit Lord after all these years? Like Blizz is just going to let us plop down a HUGE NPC right in the middle of the melee pile when we're already cluttering it up with our zoo?

[Kyoda]

People are still going on with the Pit Lord after all these years? Like Blizz is just going to let us plop down a HUGE NPC right in the middle of the melee pile when we're already cluttering it up with our zoo?

Yeah, the problem of having a Pit Lord is it's size. It's going to block other players view and it would mess with melee players on targeting the right target and not our minion.

I also wanted a Pit Lord, but once I read somewhere someone saying about those issues, yeah, I can't argue with it.

Maybe asking them to make a class toy like, to summon a Pit Lord, but won't do any combat, that would be very cool.

[Deleted]

People are still going on with the Pit Lord after all these years? Like Blizz is just going to let us plop down a HUGE NPC right in the middle of the melee pile when we're already cluttering it up with our zoo?

They could just make it smaller, like the size of an Infernal. I really don't think the size issue is what's holding it back.

[Dyptheria]

I agree, summoning a zoo of imps is not my idea of being a powerful demonic summoner. It's just lame.

I'm guessing the idea is to retain the "theme" of ranged caster, with some melee thrown in to mix things up a little. In terms of being "powerful", it's a toss-up between having the mental strength to enslave loads of weaker Demons, or to enslave one or two much stronger ones. I'd guess what's also playing into the class fantasy is that (apart from a Pit Lord) the Doomguard is just about the upper limit of what a mortal Warlock can enslave with any reasonable success.

After a Pit Lord, what's the next rank up? Nathrezim? I can't see a mortal being able to enslave an Eredar, somehow.

@thread

Can anyone give any feedback on how the other Demons play, such as the Succubus, Felhunter (and their more powerful replacements)? Have there been any changes?

[demonicpanda]

They could just make it smaller, like the size of an Infernal. I really don't think the size issue is what's holding it back.

Two issues:

1.) People were complaining about the size of Infernals/Doomguards in WoD because even they are too big.
2.) A "mini"-pit lord would just look utterly stupid.

- - - Updated - - -

Is it just me or does Demo feel like its messing something? idk I can't put my finger on it but I feel like the rotation is missing something and I hate how shadowflame makes our rotation feel comfy while the other 2 not so much.

I personally would like to see shadowflame lose the dot and replace shadowbolt entirely. It'd preserve some of current Demo's mobility, and SB (outside of demon bolt form) is only good for generating shards anyways. They could even put Shadowflame and Demonbolt on the same tier to make it a real choice of wanting a beefier cast spell or an instant cast on demand resource generator and focusing on pumping out more demons.

So first tier could be something like:
Demonbolt replacing Shadowy Inspiration, Shadowflame, and Demonic Calling (but changed to "X% chance to reset cooldown of Call Dreadstalkers and make it cost no shards").

That way it can be a choice along the lines of more caster damage, but generally keeping same gameplay, more HoG/Imps because smoother/quicker shard regen, and more dreadstalkers and demonic empowerment gameplay.

[Fearsom1992]

idk maybe the thing I meant by missing is our talents don't seem like a "demonlogist" all they are is boring passives idk when I think of fantasy talents I think of you know summoning a new demon LOL compared to other classes warlock talents seem very dull and boring then again it could be just me and I expect too much in class theme xD

[jayx10]

1.) People were complaining about the size of Infernals/Doomguards in WoD because even they are too big.
2.) A "mini"-pit lord would just look utterly stupid.

Yup. All the people asking for a Pit Lord need to realize this. The Infernal and Doomguard are already shrunk down to the size of ridiculousness. Now just imagine how idiotic a Pit Lord (which is much larger than an infernal or Doomguard...) is going to look when it's standing just a head taller than a tauren? It will look terrible , and defeat the purpose of even having a Pit Lord.

[Gaidax]

Pit Hatchling? Or maybe Pit Larva.

[demonicpanda]

idk maybe the thing I meant by missing is our talents don't seem like a "demonlogist" all they are is boring passives idk when I think of fantasy talents I think of you know summoning a new demon LOL compared to other classes warlock talents seem very dull and boring then again it could be just me and I expect too much in class theme xD

Unfortunately I'm not in the beta, so I can't comment on ~feel~ more than just watching people play, but I think passives at least suit the current incarnation of Demo on the alpha. They really seem to be GCD locked, and adding any actives from talents/artifacts would really just exacerbate the problem. Really wish I could get access to the alpha and get some first hand experience with it though....

Affliction's talents seem rather nice, and I'm a tad bit excited to see how it feels to actually sit down and play it, and their talents seem to offer the choice between purely passive and adding additional complexity (assuming numerical balance between talents, which let's face it, blizz doesn't necessarily do a good job of...)

[warzerotwo]

Pit lord as DPS cooldown: deal 200% of your total damage for 15 seconds on a 10 minute CD
Pit lord as passive pet: deal 15% of your total damage

As a passive it would just eat into your power budget and be a flashy thing that follows you, its model would need to be scaled down to the point it looks like you have a pack mule following you, like literally the size of a horse, no actually it would probably need to be smaller, hardly filling the fantasy of enslaving an immensely powerful demon
As a cooldown it can deal incredible damage deserving of a pit lord and have a impactful model (because its a 'high' moment that needs to convey important info), filling the fantasy of summoning the most terrifying demons of the burning legion

Maybe I want a 'flashy thing' to follow me around. Maybe not every class skill or talent needs to be tuned explicitly for Mythic raiding.

[Gnarilex]

After a Pit Lord, what's the next rank up? Nathrezim? I can't see a mortal being able to enslave an Eredar, somehow.

Sorry to burst your bubble but wrathguards (replace felguard with GoSup in WoD and a glyph in Legion) are man'ari eredar. They serve as the honor guard of the Burning Legion. Also Eredar is used to describe both the Burning Legion members and the civilization of Argus before their involvement with the Legion. Eredar is the race the draenei are. Those who followed Velen branched off into a separate faction and renamed themselves the Draenei ("exiled ones" in Eredun). The ones in the Burning Legion are referred to as Man'ari ("unnatural beings" in Eredun) or Man'ari Eredar by the Draenei because of their demonic corruption that warped their physiology. There's also speculation that the ered'ruin (doomguards/doomlords and potentially terrorguards) are a sub species of the man'ari eredar but there isn't any concrete evidence on that and most likely won't be until one of the chronicles.

- - - Updated - - -

Yup. All the people asking for a Pit Lord need to realize this. The Infernal and Doomguard are already shrunk down to the size of ridiculousness. Now just imagine how idiotic a Pit Lord (which is much larger than an infernal or Doomguard...) is going to look when it's standing just a head taller than a tauren? It will look terrible , and defeat the purpose of even having a Pit Lord.

That pit lord for the green fire quest was huge and a pain in the ass to micro manage (which is ironic considering they're the military generals of the Burning Legion). There's plenty of demons being introduced in Legion that I'd rather have than that monstrosity. Can't imagine anyone would want to raid/dungeon run/pvp with a demo warlock with a giant pit lord.

[Annedrooo]

I wish they would give us a way to trade in all of our extra pets for even more imps. My dream as a summoner is to have an unending swarm of shitty unmanageable peons instead of 3-5 empowered terrors.

[Deleted]

ive done some testing with implosion and i must say i realy like it.
for example on mannoroth type fights u can easily do something like hog->demonrath (or soulharvest depends on how fast you recharge)->hog-> implosion
you can precast inquisitor (with the hand of doom talent) but in comparison with the implosion damage its negligible.

some basic infos
implosion is not effected by demonic emp.
on test dummys each hog crit (with imp slap) spawns extra imps example 10 targets 100% crit ->44imps->440 implosionticks->imba