[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[snaxattax]

even the devs acknowledge that shadow needs an aoe dot spread via the pvp talent and the legendary.

multidot isn't aoe.

we've had absolute trash tier aoe two expacs in a row, and it's a huge reason why shadow is seen as generally bad in cmode groups. with cmodes being part of staying gear current next expac, we can't afford to be the bad outlier again. the devs should stop being dumb and make dot spread (or some other substantial boost to shadow's aoe- it's just that dot spreading would be an easy way of doing it and the code already exists in the PVP talent) either baseline or replacing one of our multiple garbage talents (sanlayn, PI, shadowcrash, mindspike, surrender to memeness, shadow insight, etc).

[Deleted]

Raid tests tonight, so I'll try out these new S Priest changes there and post later how it felt and how the logs looked.

[Purple]

Shadow Word: Void works well with Legacy of the Void outside of execute, however once a target reaches 35% (assuming Reaper of Souls) it becomes a dead spell as downtime between Voidforms doesn't exist anymore at that point. The question then is can Shadow Word: Void ever compete with Twist of Fate? Even without Shadow Word: Void your Voidform uptime is extremely high, and the damage Shadow Word: Void does is basically negligible. The change to Shadow Word: Void gives it a clear purpose again but I wonder if the change to Legacy of the Void made that purpose useless again. More testing is required on this matter.

I'll go back to something I said on the official forums, Shadow Word: Void needs to just be something else entirely. Get rid of mind sear. Get rid of any other attempts at adding AoE to Shadow, and make SW:V our AoE. Maybe that black hole that some people around here seem to want, perhaps as a ground target with snare/damage over time and collapse damage at the end of the duration based on how close targets are to the center of the aoe.

You could even bring back our tentacle CC to compliment it, just replace the nonsense that replaced Psychic Horror. Oh, and add Psychic Horror back in. And Spectral Guise.

Mind Spike actually appears to be better than Legacy of the Void on single target from the little testing I've done so far, which I didn't actually expect. Or at least, the detonation effect does decent damage even without ever being able to get 10 stacks on a target in PvE. Both an unpleasant and pleasant surprise at the same time. Weirdly enough Mind Spike was removed from Fortress of the Mind, don't know what's up with that; assuming it's not actually intended?

I'd assume not intended, but I go back to my consistent view that Mind Spike completely misses the point of Shadow as a spec, and always will. They could make it outright the best ability in the game, and I still wouldn't take it. It's bad for Shadow Priests. Truth be told they need to delete Mind Spike, roll certain Mind Spike mechanics into Void Ray, and replace Mind Spike with something that fills a gap that actually needs filled. Heck, rename void ray to Mind Freeze and have it act as Shadowfrost and you'd fix a great deal of Mind Flay's issues at a base, then you'd just need to work from there on what other mechanics the talent added.

Mind you, I'm thinking PvP here.

Some problems are still the same as they've been throughout the entire alpha (AS, Void Ray, baseline Shadow Word: Death, SI) but Shadow's shaping up to be a lot of fun for me. These new changes (PvE perspective) show we're heading in the right direction.

Then again, I don't really disagree with void ray just being baseline either, it's not that any one way to go about it is right, but as you're pointing out here, the problems exist and need fixed regardless of how.

I'm actually not entirely on board with the mana bar being added back in. Tweaking the insanity costs, or making all of them castable at 0 insanity, but with a bonus if they use their full insanity cost, could have worked. Especially with how quickly you can get into void form. The way Void Form justifies that "press button to get into void form", for me, is not for delaying use of Void Form itself as a damage CD, but for saving insanity for those utilities.

That said, I'm not against the mana bar either. That works for me too. I just think the insanity trade off could have worked, given the effort and attention the system deserves.

Oh, and add psychic horror back in. And Spectral Guise.

In my dreamer's heart, I like to imagine it's because they plan to give us the Black Bishops 'Diagonal Slide' (Shadow Blink)

(First one at 2:00)

Or that. I'd be okay with that.

[Kretan]

God that Diagonal Slide animation would be awesome with a little more updated particle effect.

[Gnarilex]

God that Diagonal Slide animation would be awesome with a little more updated particle effect.

Would be a great replacement for Leap of Faith.

[l33t]

So let me ask you, seeing that youre so passionate about this aoe thing. You want the class to have a passive or a one button aoe kind of mechanic? If so whats wrong with applying once and keeping them up with Void Bolt, even in aoe?

Nothing wrong, except for pve-wise modern encounters usually not favor multidotting, like, AT ALL. Resulting in tanks dealing moar damage on trash packs than us. Which is - IMO - stupid and ridiculous. Every damage dealing spec should always deal more damage than any tank in ANY possible game situation.

[deviantcultist]

We all share the same Void.

This is more of a Light quote, as in collective. The Void is about individuality. Thus, the case is the opposite. xD

[Yvaelle]

This is more of a Light quote, as in collective. The Void is about individuality. Thus, the case is the opposite. xD

How is the void about individuality?

[aemaet]

Every damage dealing spec should always deal more damage than any tank in ANY possible game situation.

I've once tried to explain this to my prot-pally friend, but he was too busy throwing shields.

[Deleted]

How is the void about individuality?

Because evil is by it's nature selfish and greedy.

[deviantcultist]

How is the void about individuality?

Although the answer is simple, it can be put in many words.

Let's start from what Light and Void were in the first place. Light existed and spread across the empty creation and at the parts it died out, Void was formed. As opposed to the Light's purpose of expanding and nurturing, Void moved against it in a vampiric manner as it is described.

By contrasting those two attitudes, we see the typical altruism vs egoism paradigm of morality due to vampirism being a self-centered gratification at the expense of others. Therefore, we can safely deduct that being in good terms with the concept of the Void, one favors individuality, self-empowerment and generally a stand-alone perspective, as opposed to the Light's mentality.

My sources for this is general lore/philosophy of the Light/Shadow duality in the Warcraft universe in addition to some wonderful clarifications made by the Chronicle Vol.1 which was released last month.

[Yvaelle]

Because evil is by it's nature selfish and greedy.

The Void isn't evil - nor is the Light goodness embodied. Both are one symbiotic entity, both are beyond our comprehension, beyond words. Mortals were never meant to touch that power - to comprehend such things - that is what leads to Insanity, not a malevolent will - but our own incomprehension and insignificance compared to the these fundamental forces of creation.

[deviantcultist]

Because evil is by it's nature selfish and greedy.

I would avoid using the term good/evil, as the WoW Priest class goes beyond the mundanely religious Clerics of other western RPGs.

[Yvaelle]

Although the answer is simple, it can be put in many words.

Let's start from what Light and Void were in the first place. Light existed and spread across the empty creation and at the parts it died out, Void was formed. As opposed to the Light's purpose of expanding and nurturing, Void moved against it in a vampiric manner as it is described.

Neither existed before the other, both swirled together, and from their joining - existence was born. The Void is no more the absence of the Light, than the Light is the absence of Void.

By contrasting those two attitudes, we see the typical altruism vs egoism paradigm of morality due to vampirism being a self-centered gratification at the expense of others. Therefore, we can safely deduct that being in good terms with the concept of the Void, one favors individuality, self-empowerment and generally a stand-alone perspective, as opposed to the Light's mentality.

My sources for this is general lore/philosophy of the Light/Shadow duality in the Warcraft universe in addition to some wonderful clarifications made by the Chronicle Vol.1 which was released last month.

Hrm, I'm going to have to buy this now just to see how much they ruined the lore - aren't I?

[deviantcultist]

The Void isn't evil - nor is the Light goodness embodied..

True. You cannot really define good/evil in the mortal sense, but there is some moral compass that is more existential. The common sense of good/evil is generally what Paladins and most Warlocks strive to be. Cliches of their own moral standpoint.

However, Light/Void are cosmic forces beyond the scope of visible reality and their maxims can somewhat be viewed as primordial good/evil. For instance, the Void is described as willing to manipulate an unborn Titan with the intention to intercept the Titans' dream out of jealousy. On the other hand, the Light although somewhat passive, attempts to indirectly build up towards harmony in the universe.

Unlike mortals or mortal-like personalities like demons, Light/Void function as fundamental cosmic forces and cannot be judged from a mortal perspective.

- - - Updated - - -

Neither existed before the other, both swirled together, and from their joining - existence was born. The Void is no more the absence of the Light, than the Light is the absence of Void.



Hrm, I'm going to have to buy this now just to see how much they ruined the lore - aren't I?

It clearly says that Void moved against the Light and their collision formed the spark of existence. The lore isn't ruined at all. On the contrary, every cliffhanger and forced contradiction is solved, making the lore clear for once. Doesn't leave room for pointless debates.

As for what existed before the other. You could argue that Void existed where Light hasn't been before and Void formed again where Light has died out. But from what I've read, it appears as if the "conscious Void" acted where the Light has passed and moved against the Light in an all-consuming (vampiric) attitude.

[Annesh]

Weird lore digression

Now I know how you pve purists feel when we start talking about pvp

[RsinRC]

even the devs acknowledge that shadow needs an aoe dot spread via the pvp talent and the legendary.

multidot isn't aoe.

we've had absolute trash tier aoe two expacs in a row, and it's a huge reason why shadow is seen as generally bad in cmode groups. with cmodes being part of staying gear current next expac, we can't afford to be the bad outlier again. the devs should stop being dumb and make dot spread (or some other substantial boost to shadow's aoe- it's just that dot spreading would be an easy way of doing it and the code already exists in the PVP talent) either baseline or replacing one of our multiple garbage talents (sanlayn, PI, shadowcrash, mindspike, surrender to memeness, shadow insight, etc).

You got the ring for pve and the talent for pvp. Its already there. In legion. Regardless how its implemented, your dream is achievable.

- - - Updated - - -

Nothing wrong, except for pve-wise modern encounters usually not favor multidotting, like, AT ALL. Resulting in tanks dealing moar damage on trash packs than us. Which is - IMO - stupid and ridiculous. Every damage dealing spec should always deal more damage than any tank in ANY possible game situation.

In WoW? We play the same game?
In WoD I can see that happening if you dont know what you're doing or in the first frew gcds.
In Legion. There is no possible way.

[Kilee25]

I'd assume not intended, but I go back to my consistent view that Mind Spike completely misses the point of Shadow as a spec, and always will. They could make it outright the best ability in the game, and I still wouldn't take it. It's bad for Shadow Priests. Truth be told they need to delete Mind Spike, roll certain Mind Spike mechanics into Void Ray, and replace Mind Spike with something that fills a gap that actually needs filled. Heck, rename void ray to Mind Freeze and have it act as Shadowfrost and you'd fix a great deal of Mind Flay's issues at a base, then you'd just need to work from there on what other mechanics the talent added.

I disagree with this statement.

Mind Spike to me was an essential tool that filled a much-needed gap in our kit. In pre-cata WoW, our ramp-up time to start doing "full dps" was about 4-6 seconds. Mind Blast was on a long-ish CD, so we had one burst spell that took a long time to recharge, then nothing but dots and Mind Flay inbetween. We needed something that would allow us to apply some pressure to targets immediately in that 4s window. I don't want to go back to a world where this isn't a tool option anymore. I'm a bit upset that it's being taken away as if people have forgotten the point of creating that spell in the first place.

If you want a PVP analogy - sometimes people drop a Totem with low health, that takes 1-2 spells to kill. That's what Mind Spike was supposed to be for.

However, the new Mind Spike talent isn't this. It's something else. It's a replacement for Mind Flay, that mechanically behaves exactly the same as Mind Flay in terms of how you use it and where it fits into your rotational priority. That's my main beef with it. MS was supposed to be a semi-hard-hitting spell that replaced MF AND DoTs, and fulfilled moments where you needed burst DPS in a very small time frame.

As for the current CoP playstyle, which I feel is what you are really talking about... I love that too, but for entirely different reasons. I'd like that to be an option going forward... but again, Mind Spike isn't it. CoP to me is about removing complexity from the shadopriest rotation, and offereng a gameplay style that is easier to use from a mechanical standpoint. The instant cast Mind Blasts freed players up to move around, and gave us a hard hitting spell that couldn't be interrupted in PVP. Again, the new MS talent is not that either. It doesn't make the class easier to play. It doesn't improve our ability to move. The new L100 talent is NOT CoP.

So really I don't see what you're complaining about, because the new Mind Spike talent has basically removed everything good and decent about both Mind Spike and CoP, and it's basically just a textual replacement for Mind Flay, while still behaving the same way and filling the same place in the rotation. If anything, it could be said that you got your wish - they pretty much killed everything about Mind Spike in Legion, except the name.

[snaxattax]

You got the ring for pve and the talent for pvp. Its already there. In legion. Regardless how its implemented, your dream is achievable.

unless RNG or whatever makes the ring not an option - and regardless legendaries aren't even enabled early in the tier at all.

in wod, shadow's aoe was worse than tanks until midway thru BRF with the insanity/cascade changes. even with that, shadow aoe is still awful, it's just we can at least outdamage prot wars. prot pallies, blood dks, monks and guardian druids can still out aoe shadow.

[l33t]

unless RNG or whatever makes the ring not an option - and regardless legendaries aren't even enabled early in the tier at all.

in wod, shadow's aoe was worse than tanks until midway thru BRF with the insanity/cascade changes. even with that, shadow aoe is still awful, it's just we can at least outdamage prot wars. prot pallies, blood dks, monks and guardian druids can still out aoe shadow.

Nope, based on RsinRC ultimate information you're just doing it wrong mate or it is just a few first cds.

Also, please get your hands off our godsend, engaging, interesting and complex gameplay of multidotting with your filthy ideas of dot spreaders.

Sarcasm aside though, maybe its actually RsinRC who is grouping with shitty tanks instead of us being noobs who need to l2p, who knows. maybe he did not played WoD from the very beginning, as well as never tried challenge modes of both mop and wod, as well as never played in MoP. Maybe he never raided anything but lfr. I don't understand how anyone can deny a very well known fact otherwise.