[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Naga Coatl]

I know you wanted answers from him, but I want to share my opinion on the matter.

I don't remember anyone expressing this sentiment back then, even in Dragon Soul when it became a part of our set bonus rotation. I was writing the spriest guide back then, so I got a LOT of communication and feedback. I don't remember anyone saying something like "this spell is the ugly ruin of shadow."

IIRC, at the time it was considered an almost useless spell because it was balanced to do less damage than Dots+MF, and the fact that it removed dots was deemed almost anthitetical to SP's toolkit. Many considered it an emergency dot removal tool, or a spell useful only for bursting adds that lived/had to live just a couple seconds (Ragnaros' Adds for example), an extremely niche use since our dots/multidotting were strong. In general, while maybe there wasn't a real hatred against that spell, it was still mind boggling to many. Many were frustrated to receive such a niche spell, useless in normal rotations as a new leveling spell. It became really useful with 4p t13, but it was not really a Mind Spike feature, people were happy to finally have a dps CD. MSp was not the ruin of shadow because from what I remember it was barely relevant outside t13, but I think many were frustrated because we didn't get anything better - a dot removal spell for a dot class was weird.

I do not remember seeing anyone say anything like during MoP either

Again, maybe I don't remember perfectly well, but I think that there was a sort of 'Please Blizz stop trying to force us to use this dumb spell' sentiment at the time. At the beginning of MoP shadow priests were basically forced to the Shadowy Insight / Surge of Darkness whack-a-mole gameplay, dot became a 'proc engine' and I remember some/many players criticizing that paladinesque 'press what lights up' direct damage spamming gameplay. Spike was usable with that talent because it turned it in something 'not Spike' (instant, without dot removal). After Insanity was developed, I don't remember great/meaningful uses for Mind Spike since we still wanted to multidot+flay/sear as possibile instead of focusing single target on one add at a time.

To me, this sentiment only happened in WoD

WoD IMHO exacerbated the MSp 'discomfort' and turned it to hate. CoP single-handedly divided the SP community, with many praising the new simplere, "nuker" gameplay, and others hating it wondering why Blizz was so attached to that spell who "was never really appreciated" to the point of creating a 'new SP' who had to give away its distinctive features (dot heavy gameplay). Many thought that CoP was intended to be the 'simpler but less efficient' playstyle for who really wanted it, but it turned out to not be the case.

As an aside, and to bring this slightly back on topic. I spoke to a few of my old friends at the beginning of WoD, and they thought that CoP and DoTWeaving was going to bring back the dragon soul play. They spoke fondly of it, and hoped that was what it would feel like. These same people seem to think the new void form design is a throwback to that era, and basically an homage to that style of game play.

I haven't spoken to many SPs, but I fail to see how CoP/VF can be a throwback/homage to the t13 4p besides the fact that you use DD spells. The main good thing of that bonus was the fact that it was a 'real dps CD' in addition of our strong multidot, while CoP/VF are a permanent/cyclical rotation change at the core of the basic gameplay. For my tastes, a trigger happy cd is fine, a CoPlike direct damage spam rotation is not, and I can't appreciate CoP/VF in the same revolutionary way of t13.


Again, I don't pretend to be a 'SP Hystorian', and what I've written here is not necessarily what the 'truth' was at the time (I never was a progression raider so I don't have that PoV/knowledge, also no PvP PoV), but I distinticly remember an almost constant "Mind Spike hate/unsatisfaction" in the past six years.

[Ilir]

Bring back Dark Archangel.

[Purple]

Humor me for a moment, because I'm curioius.

Mind Spike was introduced in Cata. I was around then, and I don't remember anyone expressing this sentiment back then, even in Dragon Soul when it became a part of our set bonus rotation. I was writing the spriest guide back then, so I got a LOT of communication and feedback. I don't remember anyone saying something like "this spell is the ugly ruin of shadow."

I would say, when it was first implemented, my impression was more confusion, or just generally being boggled as to, "Why?" Though I do remember wanting it removed even then, just with less bile. I've never been fond of the idea of a spammable fast cast nuke in Shadow though, so that's not surprising. I can't really remember a single implementation of it that I've liked, even the few perks its offered along the way felt like they were things that should have been implemented into the spec in other ways.

Which means to me that you are actually misplacing all of this anger. You're not mad at Mind Spike. What you're really mad at is CoP, and the entire game play style that was born out of it.

I suppose you can view it that way, if you interpret hyperbole as actual anger or hatred.

I've talked to a lot of people this expac, and as near as i can tell, they single-handedly blame CoP for ruining the entire class. I'm wonder if that's where you are coming from. Did you play before WoD? And did you feel that way about MS back then? Am I off the mark here?

Particular implementation and expansion aside, I've never been fond of Mind Spike, and always would have preferred it be kicked out of the spec, with any useful aspects of it rolled into the spec in other ways. I do not speak for anyone but myself, nor will I pretend to know what a general consensus is (or was), I simply know what I thought then, and now, regardless of what you remember.

As an aside, and to bring this slightly back on topic. I spoke to a few of my old friends at the beginning of WoD, and they thought that CoP and DoTWeaving was going to bring back the dragon soul play. They spoke fondly of it, and hoped that was what it would feel like. These same people seem to think the new void form design is a throwback to that era, and basically an homage to that style of game play.

I don't really see how they could be interpreted as such. Though, I'd note that I don't have the issues with void form that some seem to. I also don't see VF as much of a throwback either.

Did you play before WoD?

I was given WoW as a Christmas gift in 2005. Back then, I tended to just play the game, not get involved with the main forums, or other WoW related communities

[Djriff]

The problem with Mind Spike is that in cata it served great as a filler for targets that wouldn't be up long enough for dots to have an effect. It mainly became useless outside of stripping dots when they changed DP in the 5.0 pre patch. That's also when they changed talent trees and glyphs. Not saying that talents before were really helping mind spike, but with the invention of Insanity, mind spike became even more useless.

[RsinRC]

I do think we need a mindspike-esque ability though. Baseline.

While questing, pvp and small health adds I straight up can say it feels dumb/awkward to have to dot something up and then mind flay or using mindflay to get it down to to execute range. Or should i say it feels so much slower.

But to have it as a level 100 talent is awkward.

Imagine a new player leveling all the way to 100 only to have learn a completely new way to play and even then the talent feeling awkward to use. If they're gonna keep it they should put it a lower level tier.

Imagine a veteran who knows their shit only to find an ability we've had for years become a level 100 talent and not only does it feel awkward but feel that blizzard went backwards by implenting it into a basic spell at 100. Granted they tried making it interesting but being you need to use mb on cd it makes you wonder what is its purpose. It looks like it can be brought to max stacks at the beginning of VF since the insanity drain is small. Even then, legendaries, set bonuses and pvp talents rely on MB.

MindSpike should be left baseline or be replaced completely in the talent tree.

[Aeriel]

I do think we need a mindspike-esque ability though. Baseline.

MindSpike should be left baseline or be replaced completely in the talent tree.

Mind spike filled a niche that was vacated by Mana Burn: quick cast direct damage with utility. The problem is that the utility given has become its Achille's Heel. When CC was important, the DoT extinguishing utility had use for "extra pull, CC now" moments in PvE.

It needs to be more distinct from MF, even while remaining a filler. For instance: what they appear to want is MF to be higher damage, but MSp higher Insanity. Honestly, that would work well if they didn't try to make it "talent worthy". Just make it baseline and let the player decide DPCT vs Insanity generation.

[l33t]

Mind spike filled a niche that was vacated by Mana Burn: quick cast direct damage with utility. The problem is that the utility given has become its Achille's Heel. When CC was important, the DoT extinguishing utility had use for "extra pull, CC now" moments in PvE.

It needs to be more distinct from MF, even while remaining a filler. For instance: what they appear to want is MF to be higher damage, but MSp higher Insanity. Honestly, that would work well if they didn't try to make it "talent worthy". Just make it baseline and let the player decide DPCT vs Insanity generation.

Yeah, to be honest even as a talent option it is not that bad, but "explosion" which is too shy to damage nearby standing mobs is laughable. Give us a passive cleave, like other specs have, in form of that optional talent - while having MSpike baseline ability like it always was. Also, I still have a question: now, when MSpike is gone, what should we use to deal withl shaman's totems or any pve mechanics like that? Waste whole chunk of damage of blast or void bolt, since dots and mind flay can't harm them? Pfft.

[RsinRC]

Thats awesome actually. Having both for when you either want more insanity or more damage in that particular moment.

Kinda related but Off topic: The pruning is getting too much love. Its almost like they want to make wow go to console or some shit lol. Last time i checked my keyboard has mad buttons. When you include shift, alt and ctrl that triples the buttons. Then you add a mouse like a naga.. Did we really need 2 xpansions worth of pruning? And then going forward just swapping old with new?

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Yeah, to be honest even as a talent option it is not that bad, but "explosion" which is too shy to damage nearby standing mobs is laughable. Give us a passive cleave, like other specs have, in form of that optional talent - while having MSpike baseline ability like it always was. Also, I still have a question: now, when MSpike is gone, what should we use to deal withl shaman's totems or any pve mechanics like that? Waste whole chunk of damage of blast or void bolt, since dots and mind flay can't harm them? Pfft.

Ive always used a swp

[shanthi]

Kinda related but Off topic: The pruning is getting too much love. Its almost like they want to make wow go to console or some shit lol. Last time i checked my keyboard has mad buttons. When you include shift, alt and ctrl that triples the buttons. Then you add a mouse like a naga.. Did we really need 2 xpansions worth of pruning? And then going forward just swapping old with new?

Where is the pruning getting love? On forums, I only see people critical of Blizzard "dumbing down" the game.

The pruning isn't due to lack of available keybinds. Blizzard could add a hundred more abilities to every class and we could still keybind them all. The issue is that every added (active, in combat) ability adds cognitive overhead, especially when dealing with raid mechanics. Depending on how many there are, that may or may not be a problem for those of us who immerse ourselves in the class, but the vast majority of players don't do that. They treat WoW as light entertainment...not as a hobby akin to learning to program or write music where, if you want to do it well, you'll put in a lot of hours. For those players, tons of abilities you need to use to play the class properly is daunting and a large barrier to entry. The last thing Blizzard wants to do is chase off casual players and make the game menacing to new players.

I do think it's silly to prune non-combat abilities (like, say, Eyes of the Beast for hunters), since those aren't used under pressure.

[RsinRC]

Love meaning, they keep doing it and is happening twice in a row where it didnt feel necessary this time around.

[Ilir]

I don't mind the combat ability prune.

I agree that the "class flavor" prune is kinda dumb.

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New build on the way.

Should include the mana bar... and I hope tweaks to the horrible Mind Spike talent.

[Kilee25]

My preference for each class is to condense the core combat abilities into about 8 buttons, with 3-4 remaining for utility. If you can't get the core rotation down to about 4-6 buttons I feel you've got some real issues with making the class accessible to the average player.

I remember in Cata playing an affliction warlock. While it was quite fun, I had about 10-12 buttons in my core rotation. In PVE, logistically it felt like operating a flight simulator. It was too much, imo, and I think that is poor design that doesn't need to happen again.

Right now, I use 8 buttons in my core rotation, 2 extra buttons for cleave, 3 extra buttons for macros and potions/trinkets, 8 extra buttons for non-shadow utility, 2 extra buttons for shadow utility, and 1 button for a health potion, and 3 extra buttons for buff style utility... so my core layout is about 27 buttons, of which I use 8 about 90% of the time. All of my alts are essentially played the exact same as this. Some are more simple (ie. marksman hunter) and some are more complex, but every single class can basically be boiled down into those core 8 buttons.

The idea with ability pruning, to me, is trying to find a way to trim down those 19 other buttons that are basically just used 10% or less of the time.

Fear ward, shackle undead, Mind Vision... most of these spells are so seldom used that I don't even put them on my bars. I literally open my spell book and drag them onto the screen the 1-2 times per expansion that I actually use them.

I don't want the game to be so complex that I use all 30 of my buttons throughout ever fight, but if I'm going to to have those abilities, I actually would like an occasion to use them more often, else I'm fine with Blizzard removing them because really, what's the point of having them or not having them if you never use them?

As for buffs like fortitude... although I feel less valuable as a class, all of my buffs are covered by other classes at this point, so that I no longer really feel like people care that I'm in the raid or not. What i really hate though, is getting into a 5-man and doing 20% less damage because I can't bring important damaging buffs, while every other DPS caster and/or melee/hunter pretty much has all the best buffs they need, all the time.

As a shadowpriest I feel like we got the short end of the stick in the small party buffs dep, and I know that it does affect our perceived performance in small group environments.

In summary I like ability pruning, and I'd like to see the classes trimmed down to their basics, because I feel that the game has evolved past a point where those minor spells matter anymore. I do still want classes to retain some flavor abilities, but I just don't actually think the game is better or more enriched by having abilities that are basically not even on people's bars.

[RsinRC]

I'm stuck in between. For one I guess it all boils down to losing things that were such a big part of my spec. It may seem a bit out of place but I now they have some big picture for these changes. I don't agree with most but without them putting these changes out there we won't know what else we'll enjoy. Psychic Horror being taken out replaced by MC, as a pvp player I'm not happy. To have Mindspike become a level 100 talent when it's always been a side button for that lil burst and have to be careful about using it doesn't make sense to me. Losing Spectral Guise to be replaced, I guess, by mania? It had plenty of use in pve and pvp. These were't part of our core rotation but they did get much use, atleast for me. I'm a tad butthurt lol

btw, I posted a vid I made last night in the pvp video sticky in the pvp forum if anyone is interested in seeing some spriest action.

[Djriff]

Most of the spells you mentioned Kilee are used primarily in PvP. Mind Vision is fine, it's a class flavor spell and I can't think of a good reason to remove it. Shackles is good vs a DK, but it should be opened up a bit to include demons so we can do something against locks, but that's another issue entirely.

When I did the green fire quest on my warlock, I actually used the Eye skill for the first time ever. It was unique and pretty awesome, but that's basically the only time I've ever used it.

[l33t]

When I did the green fire quest on my warlock, I actually used the Eye skill for the first time ever. It was unique and pretty awesome, but that's basically the only time I've ever used it.

I dunno, Djriff. Warlock was my first character in WoW back in good old days, and I do remember using eye like a lot. From sneaky looking over a corner in dungeons and looking what is happening in battleground to using it just for fun while sitting atop Org's bank... Maybe I just like to watch, who knows

Of course skills like Eye or Mind vision won't be used all the time, especially in pve, but it would be a disaster to delete such iconic class abilities that add more flavor to classes than any pruning ever made.

Ive always used a swp

Erm, aren't shaman totems immune for dots and mind flay?

[Djriff]

That's exactly what I'm saying! Those niche times are what makes the ability fun. I like having the choice to use it in whatever way I deem fit. It doesn't have to be balanced to anything either (wtb ability to see through stealth).

And you can put SW: P on a totem, the dot won't stick but the initial damage will still happen.

[Ramaloce]

Erm, aren't shaman totems immune for dots and mind flay?

The instant damage of swp will still hit shaman totems. I do it all the time in pvp.

[l33t]

My god, I really feel stupid now

It was not like that before, and I've got used to dots not dealing any damage to totems... so never tried to do that, year after year after year...

[Djriff]

haha, happens to the best of us. Not a real loss though.

[Purple]

The instant damage of swp will still hit shaman totems. I do it all the time in pvp.

Exactly, much like the initial hit from Devouring Plague used to provide. This wasn't always true of SW:P, just like it used to be true that DoTs didn't instantly tag a mob until they ticked for the first time. It's easy to forget, given any current issues, that some of our older issues actually have been solved. I'm rather happy about all that.

I'm assuming anyone not familiar with this is just used to the fact thast SW:P didn't used to do that. It's hard to blame them. Whatever the game skill/spell equivalent of muscle memory is, or what have you, can be a pain to unlearn. Unlearning old functionality is my least favorite part about sweeping changes (even when they're needed), I go through that period every time they've redesigned Shadow, or aspects of it.

Most of the spells you mentioned Kilee are used primarily in PvP. Mind Vision is fine, it's a class flavor spell and I can't think of a good reason to remove it. Shackles is good vs a DK, but it should be opened up a bit to include demons so we can do something against locks, but that's another issue entirely.

When I did the green fire quest on my warlock, I actually used the Eye skill for the first time ever. It was unique and pretty awesome, but that's basically the only time I've ever used it.

I wouldn't mind many of those utility or fluff/flavor skills finding more use rather than being knocked off with a, "It's not supporting my damage/healing/tanking role and too many buttons confuse me" mindset.

I don't play a Warlock, but collecting masses of feathers back in the early days, just so I could levitate everywhere, mind visioning myself from player to player around the city and sneaking through a dungeon to the boss solo with mind soothes is the sort of utility/fluff experience I enjoy. I know some class aspects used to be more useful (lock picking, unless you just used the cannon) in that way, but the problem tended to be in the static nature of MMOs. I don't know where the balance would be, but I certainly don't want the utility/flavor spells and skills gone regardless.

We almost lost levitate (water walking, slow fall and floaty animation all in one? Yes please!), and that's my favorite one. Who doesn't like floating a couple feet off the ground? I don't know whose Shadow Priest class fantasy doesn't involve floating, but let me tell you, any Shadow Priest that doesn't enjoy floating has a piece missing for their little shadowy heart. ;_;