[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Chantique]

Okay so it's really looking like Blizz is going to neglect our AoE, again.

I missed the stuff about legendaries being targetable? How does that work? Like you just farm a specific kind of mob and hope to get lucky?

I think our aoe got worse than what we have now on live. No cascade, halo, searing insanity. Even if shadow crash was baseline we still would be in a bad position compared to Wod.

Idk about you guys but shadow word: pain spam to benefit of SoI is not fun at all. Aoe is my major complain right now with the spec for pve. All the rest is beautifully done imo.

[Aeriel]

I think our aoe got worse than what we have now on live. No cascade, halo, searing insanity. Even if shadow crash was baseline we still would be in a bad position compared to Wod.

Idk about you guys but shadow word: pain spam to benefit of SoI is not fun at all. Aoe is my major complain right now with the spec for pve. All the rest is beautifully done imo.

I think this is the concensus. I had a thought for Mind Spike/AoE talent. Instead of the spike explosion, how would making it spread SWP like Seed of Corruption? Leaves up to 4 spikes that when you cast MB spreads SWP with 25% duration per spike?

I still think MSp should be baseline with higher Insanity per cast versus higher DPCT for MF, but a SWP spread effect has potential as a lvl 100 talent

[snaxattax]

the fact that even the devs admit (de facto) that some sort of dot spread is a practical necessity for the class (ring and pvp talent) hopefully means we will eventually get some sort of dot spread - even if it's just a partial duration SWPain for pve it would probably be enough. something like while in voidform your mindsear casts a 6 second SWPain on everything it hits would do wonders for making the spec play more fluidly in multitarget without dot application becoming completely mindless. doing this would also still leave the ring in a very strong position because the ring would give a full duration VT as well without it feeling like a mechanical necessity to make proper use of SoI.

tying it to mindspike is one of those things that sounds good but in practicality fails just because of how few filler gcds we spend in voidform.

[Annesh]

One challenge of any kind of dot spread is that if it's too readily available, then why ever hard cast the dots? That's fine if that's the kind of experience you're creating for the spec, but I think enough of us still enjoy manual multidotting that it's not something we should aspire to. Even Theed is starting to sour on Mind Trauma in pvp, complaining that it feels weird that you never actually cast SWP, you just stop for .2 seconds to start a Mind Sear channel. It sounds incredibly fun and powerful to me, but also a little weird and unintuitive.

I foresee the legendary ring getting completely redesigned, but not because they want to take dot spreading from us. We've complained ad nauseum about some mechanics encouraging short void phases, which is counter to what Blizz intended, and they've redone every one of those mechanics. Well, the legendary ring encourages short void phases, especially in aoe-heavy fights.

If Shadow Crash spread at least SWP if not both dots, I think that would avoid both those problems, and for an encore it would make Shadow Crash worth taking. It's tied to a hard cooldown so you'd definitely still manually apply your dots plenty of times, especially in pvp where Shadow Crash isn't very usable due to the aiming and travel time.

[Deleted]

Any word on if our visuals are fully complete? Would love some more love in that department, this is exactly how i pictured shadow crash when i first saw it listed and its pretty disappointing what we actually got in my opinion.

[snaxattax]

One challenge of any kind of dot spread is that if it's too readily available, then why ever hard cast the dots?

I mean that's why they could avoid this nonproblem by having it only apply one dot, and even applying a reduced duration version of that dot. it's not that a dot spread is mandatory, its that some sort of cleave/aoe is mandatory, and a dot spread is one way to do that and it already exists in the game. they could also do it by adding a chimshot cleave to voidbolt or mindblast, but the problem is how those sorts of changes interact with PVP already having a SWPspread. it just seems like having some sort of reduced power SWP spread would be the easiest way to fix the problem in PVE without making mind trauma useless or too powerful in pvp.

shadow crash or some other dot spread tool would never be used in pvp period because you already have mind trauma. that plus it would make even more of shadow's self healing uninterruptable (especially if you pwshield with a SI proc (voidshield) into voidbolt>mindblast>x>voidbolt). having VT available as an instant cast would probably be too much.

[Deleted]

Maybe one solution would be to add some kind of splash damage to a spell (e.g. void bolt, or just MB while in voidform) via a talent.

[calexanich]

i really don't liek they changed shadowmend to mana i can only cast 4-5 before going oom and sometimes i dont even get fully healed if im at 30-40% sucks :/

[Deleted]

i really don't liek they changed shadowmend to mana i can only cast 4-5 before going oom and sometimes i dont even get fully healed if im at 30-40% sucks :/

Have they put mana back in?

[Kretan]

Have they put mana back in?

Yes. Shadowmend lets you basically top one person before you go oom, then you have 2.5 sec gaps between casts for regen.

[pixelated senpai]

Any word on if our visuals are fully complete? Would love some more love in that department, this is exactly how i pictured shadow crash when i first saw it listed and its pretty disappointing what we actually got in my opinion.

i mean.. thats 2 different games and art styles, but the animation was updated a little bit from the second video

[Kretan]

Shadow crash is actually one of the best looking spells in the game now after update...it's a shame it sucks.

[snaxattax]

Maybe one solution would be to add some kind of splash damage to a spell (e.g. void bolt, or just MB while in voidform) via a talent.

just like dot spread, this already exists as a pvp talent. they're even on the same tier, much in the same way you would choose either a burst or sustained aoe talent instead of meme infusion or meme crash.

shadow as a spec is missing significant mechanical pieces that are required to perform competently as a pve dps spec. these tools currently exist as pvp-only talents.

[Kretan]

just like dot spread, this already exists as a pvp talent. they're even on the same tier, much in the same way you would choose either a burst or sustained aoe talent instead of meme infusion or meme crash.

shadow as a spec is missing significant mechanical pieces that are required to perform competently as a pve dps spec. these tools currently exist as pvp-only talents.

Nah we aren't missing significant pieces that's an exaggeration.

[Chantique]

Nah we aren't missing significant pieces that's an exaggeration.

Agreed, we just need a few tweaks here and there on aoe and we are gtg =)

[snaxattax]

no, the spec has zero aoe mechanics and once things are tuned for single target, the spec will not be good.

it's no more of an exaggeration than saying that the 33% nerf to MH is significant.

[Kretan]

Agreed, we just need a few tweaks here and there on aoe and we are gtg =)

Agreed. The spec is in a nice spot.

- - - Updated - - -

no, the spec has zero aoe mechanics and once things are tuned for single target, the spec will not be good.

it's no more of an exaggeration than saying that the 33% nerf to MH is significant.

It has aoe mechanics, but it is our weakness. The drivel of the end of the world from you gets tiring. Even if it isn't baseline, AOE mechanics exist through the ring so...

We were nerfed or buffed. We are getting tuned, and our damage sources are being balanced. It's alpha.

[snaxattax]

The drivel

you are functionally innumerate.

Even if it isn't baseline, AOE mechanics exist through the ring so...

if the ring is the only way we have aoe mechanics, shadow won't be used for progression on multi-target fights unless we are completely overtuned single target - which is an unreasonable assumption for many reasons. legendaries won't be available for at least a few weeks into each tier, so saying that's enough is like saying it'd be acceptable to have our pvp viability tied to legendaries which can't be used in anything but world pvp (if that).

[Kretan]

you are functionally innumerate.

Let's compare play time on alpha shall we?

if the ring is the only way we have aoe mechanics, shadow won't be used for progression on multi-target fights unless we are completely overtuned single target - which is an unreasonable assumption for many reasons. legendaries won't be available for at least a few weeks into each tier, so saying that's enough is like saying it'd be acceptable to have our pvp viability tied to legendaries which can't be used in anything but world pvp (if that).

Won't be used on progression? Really? Shadow has been fine on progression with garbage AOE. It was farm where we fell behind because of fight length.

Saying we are going to suck!!1!!1! is an exaggeration. Do we need work? Sure. Are we in a state of disrepair? No. Don't be ridiculous. We're a fun and interesting spec, and we just lack high AOE until we get a ring. And, let's be honest, you and I aren't going for world first progression. Who cares if we lose a week or two to no ring?

[RsinRC]

We will do competitive damage in all scenarios except initial burst without saved up Insanity. I understand @snaxattax about your concerns but until you get your hands on Legion's Shadow Priest and experience it yourself your preaching is very tiresome. Saying the same thing over and over with no evidence and made up %'s.

We have strong single target, strong multi target and when it goes beyond the 3 target "cap" we still have tools, the rotation and the mechanics to keep up with the rest of them. What you lack is the "how" and it's making you crazy obsessed which leads you to regurgitate the same thing for the last 7-8+ pages or so. Give it a rest, ma dude.

BTW, read the tooltip The Twins' Painful Touch

You honestly think we're gonna be shit in AoE without this ring? Or not having a spreader mechanic be our downfall? And if you feel that strongly about getting a spreader then wait the time or whatever prerequisites it needs to get it and go for it. IT'S IN THE GAME regardless how bad you want it baseline the point is, IT IS IN THE GAME.

Your assumption that we will be garbage in aoe because there is no "spreader" or Hard aoe ability is exactly like others assuming that our ST will be superior because they think we will lack in aoe.

Lets face it, you just want a spread or a true aoe mechanic and you'll be finally satisfied. Yet Shadow priests has never had it and obviously they still won't going on forward.

Of course in PvP the talent is there because without it we will be spending so many gcds on dots when there is a shit ton of other things we need to worry about that directly affects us. The lack of a spreader is WAY more noticeable in pvp rather than pve. In pve we deal damage and stay out of dumb shit. The tank and healers worry about the rest.