[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Kilee25]

I like the idea of having it activate as soon as you go to cast Void Bolt.

[davesignal]

Then maybe your argument isn't "we want auto void form", and it is more "bake it in to void bolt".

The 99% of the time is strictly during raid boss fights. Outside of boss fights, it is extremely common to prevent the auto void form. While leveling, you'll prevent it after almost every pack. In challenge modes and dungeons you will do it after every trash pack. 99% is only during boss fights, and that 99% of the time is 1 additional button press when most all of us are hitting void bolt 4-5 times to try and minimize input lag and cast it at the very first moment the server allows. World quests are going to apparently be a huge part of the expansion, and auto void form would make them insanely frustrating. Complaining about the button press is an awful argument to wanting auto void form while it is a good argument to bake it in to void bolt.

Having a button that only exists to be macroed into another button offends my sense of good design. Having Void Bolt trigger it by design would appease that, but I still think the current paradigm is an obstacle in getting a real DPS CD.

Better solution than nothing, I suppose.

[Kretan]

Having a button that only exists to be macroed into another button offends my sense of good design. Having Void Bolt trigger it by design would appease that, but I still think the current paradigm is an obstacle in getting a real DPS CD.

Better solution than nothing, I suppose.

If they wanted to give us a cooldown, I am more than sure they would just do it. They aren't blind to their own design and it's ramifications.

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On another note, it's kind of funny seeing people on the official forums who are new to the alpha getting upset at surrender to madness and calling it trash. This kind of shows that it's not going to be very well known to the average player imo until it's proven to them. It gives off such a bad first impression.

[RsinRC]

@Kretan, thats your opinion papa. Im bringin out legit discussione worthy points and you're trying to shove your opinion down my throat with no points, just point blank hyperbole opinions. Come at me with legit points cuz if not, sit down. You sound like a baby who wants his pov to stay.

[davesignal]

If they wanted to give us a cooldown, I am more than sure they would just do it. They aren't blind to their own design and it's ramifications.

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On another note, it's kind of funny seeing people on the official forums who are new to the alpha getting upset at surrender to madness and calling it trash. This kind of shows that it's not going to be very well known to the average player imo until it's proven to them. It gives off such a bad first impression.

I think this thread had the same first impressions of StM, until people actually got to sit down and play it. I imagine a talent that says "You die" is very confusing initially, especially when it's not especially clear that it's an execute talent.

People probably look at it with the "Pop all your CDs during bloodlust on the pull" paradigm and completely miss the point.

[Isentropy]

Don't forget there were a bunch of changes that both indirectly and directly affected Surrender to Madness that made it better. At first, it was the combination of cons that would've made Surrender to Madness almost unusable; particularly the change that allowed us to cast while moving during Surrender to Madness was really big. But yes, Surrender to Madness is a good example of 'don't knock it till you try it', and these people that have only had beta access for a couple of days really can't claim to have tested it in enough situations (especially raid situations are important) to have a well formed opinion on it. It's kind of silly that they claim stuff like 'this will never be used', without giving any real reason why that is. I wish people wouldn't be as hasty with their conclusions sometimes, especially when the spec has already been available for testing for months and most of the problems with the spec have already been identified and reported, same goes for the strong parts of the spec. It's clear to me that these people have not kept up with the process at all judging by their responses. More feedback doesn't mean better feedback - the current shadow thread has no business being 4 pages long right now, really.

[l33t]

Not all zones have this lag? Ugh. That's where I've been questing.

Everything lags now in beta. I think it is the effect of a weekend.

[Kretan]

@Kretan, thats your opinion papa. Im bringin out legit discussione worthy points and you're trying to shove your opinion down my throat with no points, just point blank hyperbole opinions. Come at me with legit points cuz if not, sit down. You sound like a baby who wants his pov to stay.

If you think I have no points, you are willfully ignoring my points. I am wording them very strongly because auto void form is an awful change for no benefit. Let's recap:

The point is that it doesn't add any dps at all. it just prevents annoying and rage inducing auto void forms that equal a massive net loss in uptime......that lost up time is lost damage on top of feeding in to a weak lingering insanity which then weakens void lord and the legendary that is based off of getting in to the next void form quickly. Oh, it doesn't stop there! Now you throw off timing void torrent every other void form.....wait there's more!! Mind bender is now weaker because you can't line it up with as high of a haste stack! It cascades in to crushing your momentum.

Not having control is a disastrously stupid change for no benefit.....I just double press void bolt on a macro instead of single press void bolt first global......you want to trade that inconvenience for a massive QoL nerf? It makes no damned sense.

I'm sorry, but there is a very strong argument for having control being a massive QoL increase, but there is no logical argument for having no control. The only argument for having no control is one based in not wanting to push a button.

You need control with this spec because losing a void form is disastrous in terms of losing dps, and it's way more common than you think. You need to start from zero again if you waste a void form.....and it takes 2 void forms to start rolling 100%. If you have control and avoid the reset of your momentum, you can pick up nearly right where you left off. Having control can put you 30-60 seconds further in to your momentum every time you save void form for dps down time or any break in casting. That includes heavy movement, boss flies away, RP, etc etc etc. Imagine needing 60 seconds to get 100% started dps wise on every trash pack in challenge modes.......having control prevents that ridiculous ramp up. It gives you control to not press it and hold it off for a lengthy time for those times when it is mandatory to hold off or you tank down in dps. Losing control would make shadow priest the worst dps in the game for challenge modes.

That's what a lack of void form control does; it makes us operate at a balance point lower than intended in challenge modes, and makes us the worst dps on any raid fight that causes us to auto activate void form at the wrong time. It's a terrible idea. Wanting that option is wanting a worse spec for no gain just to be lazy and not press a button twice a minute.

These are all points I have made in the last few pages. I'm not sure why you ignore them. In case you still don't want to read them and accuse me of hyperbole, respond to these:

1) Making void form automatic makes shadow priest awful at challenge modes for trash packs because it forces a ramp up on every trash pack.
2) World quests would be awful because you would spend most void forms running from mob to mob instead of using it to actually kill things
3) Any break in dps as you enter void form on a raid boss would reset momentum, potentially delay void torrent, reduce lingering insanity, reduce mindbender attack rate, and more.

How can you justify two less button presses a minute to lose all three of these?

[davesignal]

I would have thought our godawful AOE would make us terrible at trash packs regardless of Voidform.

[Kretan]

I would have thought our godawful AOE would make us terrible at trash packs regardless of Voidform.

That's a separate issue, but it compounds it. I think the ring spreading dots to main target + 3 is going to make it better but still not as good as it used to be pre nerf.

On that topic, buff shadow crash damage wise or mechanics wise please.

[Isentropy]

I would have thought our godawful AOE would make us terrible at trash packs regardless of Voidform.

Most trash packs fall under the cleave category, not AoE, and our multidot functions just fine in cleave situations. If there's a group of 10 small mobs (murlocs in Eye of Azshara, bats in Black Rook Hold) then yes we can't really do much.

And no, the ring is really awful from what I've seen. Spreads to too little targets to be impactful enough, certainly not good enough to use as your first legendary in any situation. Doesn't help us in the area where we needed it at all.

[Kretan]

Most trash packs fall under the cleave category, not AoE, and our multidot functions just fine in cleave situations. If there's a group of 10 small mobs (murlocs in Eye of Azshara, bats in Black Rook Hold) then yes we can't really do much.

I wanted a second opinion on this....Have you noticed that trash packs in Legion dungeons seem lower in average number than WoD? As in Legion dungeons seem to only have a few strong mobs (even mini boss style) as opposed to WoD where everything other pull is like 5+ mobs? Am I the only one who thinks that?

[Aeriel]

I think this thread had the same first impressions of StM, until people actually got to sit down and play it. I imagine a talent that says "You die" is very confusing initially, especially when it's not especially clear that it's an execute talent.

People probably look at it with the "Pop all your CDs during bloodlust on the pull" paradigm and completely miss the point.

Even after play testing, a lot of people still consider it a trash talent that no one will use. After explaining how powerful it is, people still say "no one will use it because you die". That said, there is a very particular set of talents and timing that builds it into one of the most powerful cooldowns in the game, but the "you die" part is always going to be a stigma.

[l33t]

I would have thought our godawful AOE would make us terrible at trash packs regardless of Voidform.

We suck only in scenarios when there are lots of mobs with small hit points. Lots and lots of trash are cleave packs actually, which we're good at. I hope that's the sign of Blizzard switching pve mechanics priorities from "ololol just storm in, mage/hunter/warriors/shamans/some tanks do your broken aoe and leave your pseudo-dps shadow priest crying in the corner" to "ololol multidot and drool at your recount, while mages/hunters/warriors/shamans/some tanks with stupidly broken aoe cry rivers on official forums"

Would be nice for a change to be the spec that excels at best and most used pve mechanics for at least once.

[Isentropy]

Can't say that I have, Kretan, I don't really run WoD dungeons anymore so I don't have a very good point of reference.

[Kretan]

Can't say that I have, Kretan, I don't really run WoD dungeons anymore so I don't have a very good point of reference.

Hmm maybe I'm crazy then. Maybe it's more the relative power level. I'd imagine if chain pulling isn't possible with how hard they hit it would feel more low volume than live where you pull all trash to the boss haha.

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Even after play testing, a lot of people still consider it a trash talent that no one will use. After explaining how powerful it is, people still say "no one will use it because you die". That said, there is a very particular set of talents and timing that builds it into one of the most powerful cooldowns in the game, but the "you die" part is always going to be a stigma.

Yeah. It is a DPS cooldown, but a unique one. I'm interested to see how the opinion of it evolves over time.

[l33t]

All you need to know about your typical WoW player: there is a thread about how players should be granted automatic levitation during infamous Dalaran crater artifact quest part. Even despite there is a goblin NPC standing right near the portal in dalaran and warning players, and a warning sign stands there as well.

[RsinRC]

Alright guys, listen up.

The next time I post we will see exactly, in a number of ways, how the streamlined (auto) VF is superior to the toggable one in a raid environment. I will explain how not only on the gameplay aspect but how it increases your overall damage but even give you an extra VF or two.

Unfortunately I cant right now as Im at work but expect to see an easy to read post up on the subject between 6-7.

See ya then.

[Deleted]

I find it very hard to believe that you can prove how two identical inputs (automatic vs pressing as soon as available/macroing) give significantly different outputs. They would be mathematically identical. If one has some (minor, occasional) additional benefits, then its really a no-brainer if you're trying to squeeze out everything you can.

[Kretan]

I find it very hard to believe that you can prove how two identical inputs (automatic vs pressing as soon as available/macroing) give significantly different outputs. They would be mathematically identical. If one has some (minor, occasional) additional benefits, then its really a no-brainer if you're trying to squeeze out everything you can.

Yeah. They are practically identical on a training dummy; any difference to me would be so tiny it would be negligible. The difference shows up when there are breaks in the action for questing/dungeons/intermission etc.