[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Kilee25]

Only two things that I can agree on is...

99% of the time you'll just hit it asap anyway.

99% of the people who don't hit it asap will either not know what they are doing, or think they are being clever/elite when they really aren't.

So it's a quality of life tool for the 1%, basically...

[RsinRC]

@escott410 And thats a fair statement, being that auto VF isn't testable but the potential IS there, no doubt.

I'm not sure why the hostilaty tho, everyone has their thoughts an opinions. Last time I checked this was the purpose of these threads.
@illar, yea having two buttons in one when most of the spriests macro it would make you think why they haven't merged them. Maybe they feel that VF is its own or at least deserves it's own activator/button

[Aeriel]

@illar, yea having two buttons in one when most of the spriests macro it would make you think why they haven't merged them. Maybe they feel that VF is its own or at least deserves it's own activator/button

Basically it could function like Cat Form. A primary toggle for when you want to go in and out, and then spells that force activation. VB and VTor should both activate VF on cast, even though you would rarely start VF with VTor (barring StM to get two VTor and a boss at <5%)...

[RsinRC]

Yea and make VF an actual passive where it activates when you use Void Bolt.

[escott410]

Only two things that I can agree on is...

99% of the time you'll just hit it asap anyway.

99% of the people who don't hit it asap will either not know what they are doing, or think they are being clever/elite when they really aren't.

So it's a quality of life tool for the 1%, basically...

Voidform is basically Archangel for Disc: you want to use it as often as possible, but having the ability to also control it for the right times will distinguish a good healer from a mediocre healer.

[Quttan]

Ok so let's get basic and say there are 2 identically geared, talents, and have identical hardware setups. The only difference between these 2 amazing Shadow Priests is one has Auto VF and his name is something super random like Rsin and the other has the current implementation of VF and his name is Twinbottoms. For the sake of simplicity let's say they are both targeting a training dummy.

Now both Shadow Priests are given 6 minutes to deal the most damage possible and they are both confident and sexy ass players so they know what they're doing.

They both start with their rotations and everything is going good. Wait a second? Rsin was able to switch to VF half a second faster already? How so?

So one thing that happens more often than not is we hit cap Insanity in the middle of a cast. Why is this relevant? Rsin has auto VF so while Twinbottoms has to finish his cast in order to press the VF button/macro, Rsin automatically turned into VF.

At first this doesn't seem too huge but it adds up. No matter what you're casting you will have to let it finish in order to go VF.

Now the more interesting part. If Rsin and Twinbottoms are both casting MB, for example, and they both hit 100i (cap 100 insanity) in the middle of the cast Rsin's MB will hit harder because of VF's 30% damage increase. So not only is Rsin ahead in VF time but ahead in damage. This continues throughout the entire fight.(;

I haven't really been following the thread much recently, so I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but here's the scenario I'm worried about with automatic Voidform:

Rsin and Twinbottoms are both one second from entering Voidform when the boss casts "Mark of Run the Fuck Over There" on them. If they don't Run the Fuck Over There they'll die. Wait a second? While Running the Fuck Over There, Rsin has been forced into Voidform due to the insanity generated from his dots. He then spends most of his Voidform running rather than doing damage, while Twinbottoms is able to save his Voidform until he can resume attacking. This has given Twinbottoms a significant lead on damage, which Rsin cannot hope to catch up to.

I would rather avoid a small number of situations where I lose a significant amount of damage than consistently gain an almost unnoticable damage increase. Considering this scenario, I haven't seen an argument for automatic Voidform that makes me think it's the better overall choice.

I suppose it would be nice to give people some kind of option to make Voidform automatic, but I definitely don't think making it part of a talent is the right choice. It would have to be a glyph of some kind if anything. I do think that abilities that can only be cast in Voidform should instantly activate it, though. That's just common sense.

[Djriff]

for the sake of arguing both sides here's how that particular situation would be handled.

If you had to run across the room, passive or active voidform, i would still pop it. I'd pop it after my PW: S on me, then void bolt on the move. If i was running Shadowy Insight, then i'll probably have a proc i saved or i'll get one soon. Alternatively if you're running Auspicious Spirits with a decent amount of crit, you'll be getting Insanity from that as well. Realistically while moving you're only missing out on the Insanity gain from Mind Blast and Mind Flay. Void bolt should be enough to tie you over, especially in an early void form.

[RsinRC]

I haven't really been following the thread much recently, so I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but here's the scenario I'm worried about with automatic Voidform:

Rsin and Twinbottoms are both one second from entering Voidform when the boss casts "Mark of Run the Fuck Over There" on them. If they don't Run the Fuck Over There they'll die. Wait a second? While Running the Fuck Over There, Rsin has been forced into Voidform due to the insanity generated from his dots. He then spends most of his Voidform running rather than doing damage, while Twinbottoms is able to save his Voidform until he can resume attacking. This has given Twinbottoms a significant lead on damage, which Rsin cannot hope to catch up to.

I would rather avoid a small number of situations where I lose a significant amount of damage than consistently gain an almost unnoticable damage increase. Considering this scenario, I haven't seen an argument for automatic Voidform that makes me think it's the better overall choice.

I suppose it would be nice to give people some kind of option to make Voidform automatic, but I definitely don't think making it part of a talent is the right choice. It would have to be a glyph of some kind if anything. I do think that abilities that can only be cast in Voidform should instantly activate it, though. That's just common sense.

Or Rsin can use dispersion to pause my decay and once im there I resume dps

[Annesh]

Or Rsin can use dispersion to pause my decay and once im there I resume dps

And then you don't have that tool up for the later stage of your void form, while Twinbutt does. You're still behind.

[Deleted]

I think q big reason why voidform and voidbolt are not just 1 button that changes to voidbolt in voidform is because of the new glyph system.

You attach glyphs to the spell which would be impossible if they were 1 button, if you want 1 button just macro them together that is why it is not on the gcd.

[davesignal]

That's silly. Even if Void Bolt automatically activated Voidform, you would still need a placeholder Voidform icon in the spellbook to explain what Voidform does. Just attach the glyph to that.

[Ilir]

Currently the shadowform glyphs are tied to the voidform... which kinda saddens me because I feel like we won't get any visual glyph for voidform itself

[Koire]

Could anyone explain to me what's going on in SimulationCraft with StM?
I used the latest beta version (@16 May).

I think there are two issues
A) It seems that when you die early, dps with StM is calculated over the period when you were alive, not over the average fight length. I.e. if you've done 40mln over 400 sec and the average fight length is 450 sec, your "dps" will be 100,000, not 88,888.
B) If you add several copies of your character with different talents/traits/etc and run a single simulation for all of them, your average time to live with StM varies greatly from i.e. dying on the 423rd sec out of 450 to never dying at all. I assume SimulationCraft places all copies in a raid and depending on the composition of this raid you reach the execute phase earlier or later. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You can actually see when a shadow priest dies with StM if you look at the health chart. A priest in a simulation can have either 100% health or 0% health (dead), and the chart shows the average over all simulations.
These two issues combined invalidate the dps metric in respect to StM.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1271582106

Also, I modified the APL a bit to account for 2 targets. Seems to be working so far.

priest="ToF_Vlord_Sanl_PI_LotV"
thumbnail="http://eu.battle.net/static-render/eu/howling-fjord/64/84236864-avatar.jpg"
level=110
race=blood_elf
role=spell
position=back
professions=engineering=700/enchanting=710
talents=http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#Xb!0000000
artifact=http://beta.wowdb.com/artifact-calculator#XJZJZbbbLIAAAAAAAAAA
spec=shadow

actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/mind_blast

actions+=/call_action_list,name=main

actions.main=voidform
actions.main+=/surrender_to_madness,if=talent.surrender_to_madness.enabled&buff.voidform.stack<10&time_to_die<100
actions.main+=/power_infusion,if=talent.power_infusion.enabled
actions.main+=/void_bolt,if=(target.dot.shadow_word_pain.remains>=travel_time&target.dot.shadow_word_pain.remains<travel_time+cooldown|target.dot.vampiric_touch.remains>=travel_time&target.dot.vampiric_touch.remains<travel_time+cooldown),cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/void_bolt,if=(target.dot.shadow_word_pain.remains>=travel_time+cooldown&target.dot.shadow_word_pain.remains<travel_time+cooldown*2|target.dot.vampiric_touch.remains>=travel_time+cooldown&target.dot.vampiric_touch.remains<travel_time+cooldown*2),cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/void_bolt,if=(target.dot.shadow_word_pain.remains>=travel_time+cooldown*2&target.dot.shadow_word_pain.remains<travel_time+cooldown*3|target.dot.vampiric_touch.remains>=travel_time+cooldown*2&target.dot.vampiric_touch.remains<travel_time+cooldown*3),cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/void_bolt
#actions.main+=/dispersion,if=buff.voidform.up&buff.voidform.stack>20
actions.main+=/void_torrent,if=buff.voidform.up&buff.voidform.stack>17
actions.main+=/shadow_word_death,if=talent.reaper_of_souls.enabled,cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/mind_blast
actions.main+=/shadow_word_void,if=talent.shadow_word_void.enabled
actions.main+=/shadow_word_death,cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/mindbender,if=talent.mindbender.enabled
actions.main+=/shadow_word_pain,if=!ticking,cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/vampiric_touch,if=!ticking,cycle_targets=1
actions.main+=/shadow_crash,if=talent.shadow_crash.enabled
actions.main+=/shadowfiend,if=!talent.mindbender.enabled
actions.main+=/mind_flay,if=!talent.mind_spike.enabled,interrupt=1,chain=1
actions.main+=/mind_spike,if=talent.mind_spike.enabled
actions.main+=/shadow_word_pain

head=celestially_aligned_hood,id=139188
neck=cursed_beartooth_necklace,id=139239
shoulders=mantle_of_perpetual_bloom,id=139192
back=evergreen_vinewrap_drape,id=139248
chest=dreamscale_inlaid_vestments,id=138215
wrists=cinch_of_cosmic_insignficance,id=139187
hands=handwraps_of_delusional_power,id=138212
waist=pliable_spider_silk_cinch,id=138217
legs=ragged_horrorweave_leggings,id=139190
feet=cozy_dryad_hoofsocks,id=139194
finger1=dreadful_cyclopean_signet,id=139237
finger2=twicewarped_azsharan_signet,id=139238
trinket1=vial_of_nightmare_fog,id=138222
trinket2=natures_call,id=139334
main_hand=xalatath_blade_of_the_black_empire,id=128827
off_hand=secrets_of_the_void,id=133958

gear_spell_power=6200

I used the same gear set but added more spellpower. What I've got is that ToF>FotM>SWV, Vlord>Vray>ROS (I think the latest SimC beta already accounts for the future change and gives 10 insanity for each SWD), AS>SI>Sanl, Mbend>PI>SC and StM>MS>LotV. However with all the weirdness going on with StM dps it may be actually worse than MS with 2 targets.

I did not check how it would work with 3+ targets, I think max_cycle_targets (3?4?),target.time_to_die for dots and Mind Sear should be added.
I also don't like the void torrent line (the 17 stacks part) and I think something should be done with it to account for various levels of haste. May be tie it to the current amount of insanity, not the stacks?

Once again, I may be completely wrong, please tell me if so)

PS I am definitely against making Voidform automatic.

[Seriv]

Yes, you can't really compare the DPS values while using StM. Another thing to note is that target.time_to_die is estimated over the damage already done so if you do a lot more damage during execute the actual TTD is a lot shorter than expected. This means if you sim StM alone you may activate it when TTD is below 190s while when simming multiple specs where some are not StM wou should activate it when TTD is below 120s. Another bug with StM is that simulationcraft let you not activate it while out of Voidform.

Here is the APL I was working out, with some optimizations for StM:

actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/mind_blast

actions+=/surrender_to_madness,if=target.time_to_die<130&(buff.voidform.down|buff.voidform.stack<5)
actions+=/call_action_list,name=void,if=buff.voidform.up
actions+=/call_action_list,name=main

actions.main+=/voidform
actions.main+=/shadow_word_death,if=talent.reaper_of_souls.enabled
actions.main+=/mind_blast
actions.main+=/shadow_word_death
actions.main+=/shadow_word_void
actions.main+=/shadow_word_pain,if=remains<(14*0.3)&target.time_to_die>(14*0.5)&miss_react,cycle_targets=1,max_cycle_targets=5
actions.main+=/vampiric_touch,if=remains<(18*0.3)&target.time_to_die>(18*0.5)&miss_react,cycle_targets=1,max_cycle_targets=3
actions.main+=/mind_flay,interrupt=1,chain=1
actions.main+=/mind_spike
actions.main+=/shadow_word_pain,moving=1,cycle_targets=1

actions.void+=/power_infusion,if=(cooldown.void_torrent.remains<10&(!talent.surrender_to_madness.enabled|target.time_to_die>190|buff.voidform.stack>60))|target.time_to_die<30
actions.void+=/shadow_crash
actions.void+=/void_bolt,if=dot.shadow_word_pain.remains<5,cycle_targets=1,max_cycle_targets=5
actions.void+=/shadow_word_death,if=talent.reaper_of_souls.enabled
actions.void+=/mindbender,if=buff.voidform.stack>20|buff.surrender_to_madness.up
actions.void+=/void_torrent,if=buff.surrender_to_madness.up
actions.void+=/dispersion,if=buff.surrender_to_madness.up&insanity<30
actions.void+=/mind_blast,if=talent.shadowy_insight.enabled
actions.void+=/void_bolt,cycle_targets=1,max_cycle_targets=5
actions.void+=/void_torrent,if=(buff.voidform.stack>5|buff.lingering_insanity.up)&(!talent.surrender_to_madness.enabled|target.time_to_die>190)
actions.void+=/mind_blast
actions.void+=/shadow_word_death
actions.void+=/shadow_word_pain,if=remains<(14*0.3)&target.time_to_die>(14*0.5)&miss_react,cycle_targets=1,max_cycle_targets=5
actions.void+=/vampiric_touch,if=remains<(18*0.3)&target.time_to_die>(18*0.5)&miss_react,cycle_targets=1,max_cycle_targets=5
actions.void+=/shadowfiend,if=!talent.mindbender.enabled&buff.voidform.stack<50
actions.void+=/shadow_word_void,if=cooldown.shadow_word_void.charges>1
actions.void+=/mind_flay,if=cooldown.void_bolt.remains>gcd,interrupt=1,chain=1
actions.void+=/mind_spike
actions.void+=/shadow_word_pain,moving=1,cycle_targets=1

The big differences are delaying VTorrent and PI to match each other and StM and having Shadow Crash used on CD during Voidform since it is not on the GCD anyway. What I am missing is the travel time of VB for refreshing. Having two different action lists is probably not necessary but it helps readability. You may also want to remove not necessary talent checks, if an ability is not available without a talent then it will be skipped anyway.

[RsinRC]

And then you don't have that tool up for the later stage of your void form, while Twinbutt does. You're still behind.

Maybe, but dispersion has a 1 min CD. If theres no way then I'll spec into another talent.

[Koire]

@Seriv

Thanks for sharing. Wouldn't it be better to use fixed_time to enhance comparability then?
Knowing that many classes lost their executes in Legion, it is reasonable to assume that the target's health will be diminishing close to linearly (in a 20 man raid).

[Zungate]

There's solid arguments to both sides of the auto VF discussion, which is exactly why a choice would be awesome.

Given a choice,
there will be fights where auto VF will be slightly superior.
There will also be fights where control of VF will be superior, probably far superior.

And as many others have stated; challenge modes and questing will be tremendously better with control over VF.

So, give us a choice. If nothing else, then to put a stop to the discussion :P

If we can't have a choice, I think control over VF will be the better option when considering everything PvE wise.

[Aeriel]

I think q big reason why voidform and voidbolt are not just 1 button that changes to voidbolt in voidform is because of the new glyph system.

You attach glyphs to the spell which would be impossible if they were 1 button, if you want 1 button just macro them together that is why it is not on the gcd.

Note I am not a programmer so this response using pseudocode may be somewhat incorrect, but bare with me.

Currently VB has a trigger check for VF if true then it casts, else it returns null.

There are two spell numbers for VF, one is the passive itself, and one is the activation toggle.

What we are asking is that VB adds a line to activate the passive spell number if insanity is high enough instead of just returning the null value. (The macro tries to apply VF before casting VB effectively creating a longer version of this line of code.)

As for the glyphs: the glyph is added to the active skill now, but actually applies to the passive. Your issue is moot, since the concern is already in place. What would happen if VB is the activator is that we would add te glyph to the passive spell bumber directly instead. If the active remains, and VB also activates VF, then we would apply the glyph to the active toggle once again indirectly applying to the passive. Basically, we already reaching around our head to scratch our noses.

As stated at the beginning, I am not a programmer, so this analysis is a simplification based on my rudimentary knowledge of how programming works, and the way spells work in WoW.

[Nihiel]

To move away from the auto/no-auto VF discussion, does anyone else think Orcs as a race should be allowed to play priest as well? I think like it'd be alright given that we've met Ner'zhul and tons of other void-attuned orcs in Draenor. What are your thoughts?

[Djriff]

I can see it for shadow. As holy/disc though? Would have to introduce some lore for it to make sense. Maybe instead of a priest getting curious about the dark side, an orc already rooted in the void is curious about the light side?