[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Djriff]

The priest forum on MMO-C is actually one of the most friendly and helpful places i've ever been to. I'm very happy to be a mod for it as well.

A lot of the problems i've seen is that people like to talk more about what's bad than what's good. I could go into the reasons as to why, but it's neither here nor there. You can't help if someone feels strongly about the class and the way they want to play/envision it, that's just how people are. Out of all the class forums here that i've read this is the most friendly. New expansions and overhauls of classes tend to bring out a lot of good and bad discussion, it happens. As for the community itself, I think it's one of the better ones. We do have our bad eggs so to speak, but which community doesn't? I've yet to see someone asking for help or advice laughed at and mocked and not actually helped.

It feels bad, sadly. Talents have zero gameplay changing choices, and most often there is only one good talent in a row. Gameplay is most non-fluid we ever had, up to the point when I seriousy question whether artificial hoops and non-streamlining were specially designed for SP. In short, everything I hated in SP - things like no burst, no aoe, clunky tab targeting multidotting - is still here, while all the things I loved like tons of utility, high mobility, high self-healing capability, are gone..

I'll have to respectfully disagree. In terms of raiding, sure there isn't much choice, however other stuff? sure. Doing dailies and don't feel like dotting anything? Take Shadow Word; Void, Void Ray, and Mind Spike.

In raid, sure you have 1-2 choices a row depending on the encounter and that's fine.

Dungeons? Same thing.

PvP? Usually everyone takes the same talents anyways, so not a big deal.

It's not just about raiding, it's about the game as a whole. That's incredibly difficult to balance, so if we only have 1-2 talent setups that work for raiding, i'm fine with that.

You can swear all you want. People have betas and had their chances to test it and make their own conclusions. "We're OK, we just have to do usual 200% effort to get 80% of any other rdps performance" - no, that's not ok, sorry.

Having played a few other classes on beta, i actually feel I have an easier time on priest than say a fire mage or a DH in terms of rotation. Sure it's dot, MB, VB, Flay done. It's pretty simple once you get everything settled up.

[Mechonics]

Having played a few other classes on beta, i actually feel I have an easier time on priest than say a fire mage or a DH in terms of rotation. Sure it's dot, MB, VB, Flay done. It's pretty simple once you get everything settled up.

I have both fire mage and priest at 110 and my fire mage is 1000x more fun and easier to play. Blink heal is retarded.

[l33t]

Having played a few other classes on beta, i actually feel I have an easier time on priest than say a fire mage or a DH in terms of rotation. Sure it's dot, MB, VB, Flay done. It's pretty simple once you get everything settled up.

Dunno, movement DH build was one of the most awesome things I've ever played in WoW, seriously. Comparing its gameplay to gameplay of other specs is like comparing a faster-than-light space travelling to a turtle trying to climb an ice mountain If only DHs weren't race locked to dobbies...

I hate our dots, seriously. Timers are too short, and cast time of VT is too long.

[Crudelitas]

I tried DH and it was awesome tbh. I can just pull every mob in sight and kill'em without breaking a sweat.

Tried Demo Lock and it was weird but entertaining to play.

Tried spriest and 3 mobs was the limit before I started to stop the dps to spam heal myself. Not cool.

[Ilir]

mmh, lying won't get get you far. You're complaining about survivability and you're saying that DH, a class with ZERO heal can "pull everything on sight without breaking a sweat" that's just not true at all. (unless you're talking about the starting DH area... which is piss easy on purpose)

You only get one heal if you talent for it that makes one of your ability sometimes spawn an "orb" (forgot the name) and you can have 100% leech while in meta (tho this talent requires you to get to 10X level so you don't have it when it matters and meta has a 6min cd (iirc)).

I mean sure, if you have all of your CDs ready, you can aggro a huge pack and just aoe them down in a few sec, that I agree but you can't do that non stop. That's just wrong.

Comparing a pet class to a petless (since our pet is a cd) to priest is also irrelevant survability wise since pet classes will always be "stronger" questing wise.

Now, I'm not saying SP doesn't have issue questing (especially in a 680 shitty gear) but it is not IMPOSSIBLE and it's not a chore and if you think it is... a lot of spec have the same issues. How many times I've seen those DH struggle against a quest boss when they don't have their meta ? And they are generally the first melee/class to die in dungeon. I am usually the last one to die in dungeon.

With that being said : I do think that we have shitty talents/we got nerfed in places that made no sense. I do think that some elitists/whatever kept dismissing any complains of us lesser individuals because they were too focused on "StM is such a strong talent, it's so op !" and forgot everything else (and thanks to that, everything else has been nerfed).

In MY opinion, Shadowpriest is more fun to play in Legion than in WoD. But I totally understand the people who don't feel that way so yeah.

I tried all of the classes/spec : and the ones I had most fun were Shadow > Destruction > Rshaman > DH.

I love playing Shadow in dungeons even tho I agree it's really annoying when there are a lot of shortlived adds that die in 2 sec. BUT they really need to stop with this non-sense about Void torrent being so easily stopped. It should give us a damage reduction while casting it/useable on the move.

Also, @Capsloch our shield CD scales down with haste which is our main stat so no, we don't have a boost every 7 sec. It's less than that, especially when you get those voidform stacks.

[Mechonics]

Also, @Capsloch our shield CD scales down with haste which is our main stat so no, we don't have a boost every 7 sec. It's less than that, especially when you get those voidform stacks.

Why? What's the point? Are we supposed to run away from everything? Seems like a really stupid design.

[Nihiel]

It saddens me a bit that this thread has turned into a complaint-fest in the last few pages. I understand people might be upset with the changes (or lack thereof? since many were happy with the directions a few weeks ago).

You don't like dots? Well, reroll. It has been clear since Blizzcon that shadow will revolve around dots once again. Short duration? Well that's just how it is, Void Bolt as a rotational ability is there to sort of make our dots permanent. Of course this had to be done, how on EARTH would our dots pack any meaningful dmg if there would be no target cap in one way or another? Look at WoD - we had tons of fun with AS multidotting in BRF, and then look at how little dmg SW:P actually ended up doing on 1-3 targets - none.

Shadow doesn't have aoe. It sucks, but that's just how it is - we're not warriors, DHs, fire mages and what not- we're shadow priests. I respect people's opinions, but it's like some just want everything in this world. That's fair, but it's not realistic and if you thought you would get it, you've been delusional. Yes, shadow has a skill ceiling higher than many 3-buttons specs with free cleave, and yes they'll do niche jobs better than we do. But if you want to, feel free to reroll if it's such a pain. It's literally a waste of space to have people complain about everything shadow is not.

I really like the (s)priest community of MMOchampion. Please rise above crying just for the sake of crying.

[Seneca]

I have both fire mage and priest at 110 and my fire mage is 1000x more fun and easier to play. Blink heal is retarded.

Fire mage gameplay is literally spam Fireball, when it crits, use Inferno and Pyroblast.

The gameplay is: 1111123111112311111231111123.

To make things worse, things like survivability, mobility, CC and utility are next to no-existent or just very straigthfoward.

Fire mages have, respectively, Ice Barrier/Ice Block, Blink, Polymorph/Frost Nova/Counterspell, (and 0 utility).

The gameplay (DPS and non-DPS wise) is very scripted. The idea to play for 2 years spamming Fireballs and pressing Ice Barrier and Blink when necessary is scareful.

Both skill floor and ceiling are very low.

If I had to choose now, I would choose to play a shadowpriest rather than a fire mage without thinking about it more than half a second. Fire mages seems "fun" for a few hours/days, definetly not months/years.

It saddens me a bit that this thread has turned into a complaint-fest in the last few pages. I understand people might be upset with the changes (or lack thereof? since many were happy with the directions a few weeks ago).

You don't like dots? Well, reroll. It has been clear since Blizzcon that shadow will revolve around dots once again. Short duration? Well that's just how it is, Void Bolt as a rotational ability is there to sort of make our dots permanent. Of course this had to be done, how on EARTH would our dots pack any meaningful dmg if there would be no target cap in one way or another? Look at WoD - we had tons of fun with AS multidotting in BRF, and then look at how little dmg SW:P actually ended up doing on 1-3 targets - none.

Shadow doesn't have aoe. It sucks, but that's just how it is - we're not warriors, DHs, fire mages and what not- we're shadow priests. I respect people's opinions, but it's like some just want everything in this world. That's fair, but it's not realistic and if you thought you would get it, you've been delusional. Yes, shadow has a skill ceiling higher than many 3-buttons specs with free cleave, and yes they'll do niche jobs better than we do. But if you want to, feel free to reroll if it's such a pain. It's literally a waste of space to have people complain about everything shadow is not.

I really like the (s)priest community of MMOchampion. Please rise above crying just for the sake of crying.

I do partially agree with you, but, objectively speaking, shadow priests have a few issues (excluding numbers, which are always subjected to change):

- Lack of reliable AoE tools (it's not about pulling a great AoE DPS, but about having the tools to begin with);
- Binary (so, extremely unhealthy) survivability system (Shadow Mend spam);
- Lack of mobility (which probably could be resolved by reducing the infinite numbers of gap closers and uptime melees have tbh);
- Very bad spell animations, vanilla-like.

These, I think, are the objective macro-issues (then there are objective micro-issues, for example some talents in particular, and the subjective macro/micro issues, which by being subjective are hard to categorize).

[l33t]

I really like the (s)priest community of MMOchampion. Please rise above crying just for the sake of crying.

I wonder why objective criticism of a spec makes some people to think they are being personally insulted or something.

Also: no, I don't think people want "everything", when they ask for aoe tools. I think they ask for bare minimum, an aoe tools which lets them at least deal more damage than a tank does on a pack of small trash mobs. Just to not feel themselves a worthless piece of garbage whose damage is lower than a tank's one. No, shadow priest's #classfantasy should not be based around feeling like a piece of garbage trash when a pack of smaller mobs come in. I think that if a damage dealing spec feels like garbage piece of trash in any possible scenario requiring dealing damage, it is a failed game design.

[Ilir]

Why? What's the point? Are we supposed to run away from everything? Seems like a really stupid design.

What ? "why do we need an on demand mobility ?" Are you serious ? I don't even.

Tho I agree that it'd be nice for the mobility part not being tied to one of our "defensive" spell

[Nihiel]

First of all, I'm not personally offended or anything. I'd just like, as you yourself said, objective criticism rather than circle jerk crying where everything is marked as intentionally badly designed just to spite priests.

It feels bad, sadly. Talents have zero gameplay changing choices, and most often there is only one good talent in a row. Gameplay is most non-fluid we ever had, up to the point when I seriousy question whether artificial hoops and non-streamlining were specially designed for SP. In short, everything I hated in SP - things like no burst, no aoe, clunky tab targeting multidotting - is still here, while all the things I loved like tons of utility, high mobility, high self-healing capability, are gone.

For example this, I do agree with what's being said in the first sentences. We all know what spriests lack, aoe tools, flexible on-demand burst, survivability to name a few. However, it turns into a subjective opinion which isn't necessarily the "truth". Spriests still have VE, decent micro off-healing, great self-healing (you're living under a rock if you think spriest self-healing is in any way bad, and if self-healing really is what floats your boat you can look forward to the legendary which buffs it), and we can still cast SW:P on the move without losing TOO much. I don't see how WoD spriest has more mobility, for example - other than Cascade, but we've gained VB during VF so huh.

I'm not trying to start a flame war I'm just saying, many things that people request and that we probably should have had just aren't gonna become reality. This doesn't make shadow a bad spec, and it doesn't mean shadow will be mechanically broken and we'll all die. I agree that some aspects of the game design behind Legion shadow are pure garbage, but nothing will ever be perfect. I'd say shadow is lucky to have become what it is, rather than the 1-2-3 button specs may other classes have become. Anyways, as I said earlier I really enjoy the priest community of MMOchampion. Let's just not spell doom and gloom without looking at things realistically from an objective pov

[Kilee25]

Concerning the community, my only two issues are the people who like to place others in tidy little boxes so that they can be ignored. "Oh, you're disagreeing with me because you're mad, so I will ignore you." It's a convenient and rude forum tactic that I see a lot. Imo, people are more complicated than this so trying to put them in those little boxes is basically just a form of passive aggressive bullying.

The other thing I see is just simply the nature of this being a video game, it brings a lot of people with a certain level of immaturity. But that's true game-wide and will never change. The people whose egos and sense of worth and importance are tied to their iLevel and progression etc... I understand some of it has to exist but every now and then some self-realization would be nice.

[Purple]

It saddens me a bit that this thread has turned into a complaint-fest in the last few pages. I understand people might be upset with the changes (or lack thereof? since many were happy with the directions a few weeks ago).

It saddens me that any legitimate critique is as readily drowned out by one extreme as another, and both are in full effect. So let's start simply, a few weeks ago is not 'now'. If you can't think of anything that has changed between then and now, to change opinions, one way or another, then you simply are not paying enough attention to be commenting on the state of things at all.

You don't like dots? Well, reroll

Plenty of people that have issue with how our DoTs are functioning seem to like DoTs just fine. Rerolling will not solve the issues people are having with them. I know it might seem insane to you, but it's possible to like DoTs, but have issues with some of the particular implementations and changes we've seen. One of the major issues is the duration, but I'm sure if I, or anyone starts talking about that particular aspect you'll jump to:

Void Bolt as a rotational ability is there to sort of make our dots permanent.

While you completely ignore its very real and very awkward travel time issues, and that it's just not a particularly good way to renew DoTs in the first place. That's why it used to be on Mind Flay.. guess what application and travel time issues Mind Flay didn't have. Anyone? Anyone? You in the back? That's right Billy, it had none of those issues. Gold star.

Of course this had to be done, how on EARTH would our dots pack any meaningful dmg if there would be no target cap in one way or another? Look at WoD - we had tons of fun with AS multidotting in BRF, and then look at how little dmg SW:P actually ended up doing on 1-3 targets - none.

Shadow doesn't have aoe. It sucks, but that's just how it is - we're not warriors, DHs, fire mages and what not- we're shadow priests. I respect people's opinions, but it's like some just want everything in this world. That's fair, but it's not realistic and if you thought you would get it, you've been delusional. Yes, shadow has a skill ceiling higher than many 3-buttons specs with free cleave, and yes they'll do niche jobs better than we do. But if you want to, feel free to reroll if it's such a pain. It's literally a waste of space to have people complain about everything shadow is not.

One of the things that boggles me when people bring up WoD or any other incarnation of Shadow DPS, no matter their side of the discussion, is that they all too readily forget that at one with in WotLK we have both viable single and aoe DPS. Not overpowered or underpowered. Just viable. And the world didn't end. The other classes were still played. WoW did not, in fact, have a melt down because Shadow was actually well rounded for a little bit.

Are you okay with a tank spec Warrior having better DPS than a DPS spec, hybrid or otherwise? Are you outright ignoring the points of some of the most respectable PvE and PvP Shadow Priests out there, who, themselves, are unhappy with various aspects of the spec, including and well, well beyond our AoE?

Personally, I'm not even a big defender of our AoE. It's certainly not good, but if our single target made up for that, and we had the tools to actually make use of it in PvE and PvP I'd be fine, bu at end game, from well known and well respected Priests, I continually see issues with our survival/defensive capabilities not cutting it, especially in the face of our mobility issues. Now, myself, I don't think Shadow needs mobility, I come from the old school thought that says, we're meant to be a tanky caster that doesn't need to move because they can take a few hits.

If we don't have the defenses and self healing to endure, then we need mobility.

If we don't have mobility, then we need the defenses and self healing to endure.

If we have neither than our damage needs to be high enough that neither above point matters.

We are in a situation where none of these things apply because our AoE is trash, our ST (which is actually one of the few things I can compliment) doesn't make up for our lack of defenses, mobility and self healing, and our utility has long gone the way of the dodo.

Now, some people will bring up body and soul as a mobility option, and I admit it's probably our best mobility option. But it's still pretty terrible in the melee dominated scene where they have all the gap closers under the infinite suns of an infinite universe to get back in your face. Our utility, defenses and mobility need addressed, and, no, they don't all have to be superb, but they do need properly balanced out, which they are not currently. I'm for an idea I saw somewhere back that suggested the talent that increases our speed as we have more Insanity should also increase our defense as we have less insanity, I don't think it would solve everything, but given Blizzard seems adverse to reinstating our old DR, it's probably the more likely thing to happen, even for a very, very unlikely thing.

Our ST needs tuning, but it's definitely on its way, though I still wonder about this whole void form thing.. it almost seems arbitrary to go into a form for our 'real' DPS, when we're already in a.. form..there's a certain level of clunkiness to the design vision of our spec right now. I thought having this 'void' theme would lead to more cohesion, but, it's like BLizzard are afraid to go all in all this. They could bring it all together, and put their foot down, say this is how it's going to be and make the changes that will start the process. But they haven't. Shadow is all over the place thematically, the void stuff hasn't fixed that, it's just added another place to be all over. ST aside for a moment, I'm not happy with several talent rows, I think others have covered it well, but even with the cleave bits added to Mind Spike, I still think the 100 talent row is one sided.

Our AoE is not good. I don't actually get on board with the, "we need to be the best at everything" line of thinking either, but, as a DPS spec, hybrid or otherwise, we do need to out DPS a TANK - as do all DPS specs, AoE or ST. Furthermore, regardless of damage numbers, our AoE is clunky, it needs better thought out and unified into a cohesive whole. Right now it's as all over the place as our spec is thematically right now. This is not the end of the world, but it is a very odd status for the DPS of any spec notably focused on DPS.

You aren't better than the people whining like it's all doom or gloom, it's not all doom and gloom, it's just very disappointing that Blizzard are struggling with the spec (and the specs of several classes, especially non-melee right now) and you can feel that throughout the community well beyond Shadow. No, the people whining aren't in the right, but the people whining and moaning that other people are whining and moaning aren't any better.

Take a step back. Everyone. Not just you. Take a break from the Shadow news, get some fresh air, and come back to the spec's very real concerns with a fresh head that realizes there are some things about the spec that are looking pretty good. Blizzard just need to get the other bits sorted.

Feedback, level headed feedback, on the official forums, may or may not help bring that about, but griping that everything is terrible won't help.. but neither will whining about or acting superior to the doom and gloom crowd, because that's every single bit as bad, possibly worse with the arrogance involved.

[l33t]

I don't want to argue, but since number tuning is not yet done, all we can do is speak about subjective matters.

[Aeriel]

The thing with the complaints and "different sides" in this thread is that most people agree about the inherent flaws.

1) PvP: melee are too strong. Some people say we need more tools, others say they need less. (I'm on the melee need less side)
2) AoE: weak to non-existent. We have tools for the bosses, but the debate lies in getting to the bosses.
3) Talents: each row has at least one that no one can really find a use for. Heavy handed, but there it is.
4) Skill cap: this one is a little more debatable. The skill cap is higher than some specs for less return, particularly after the last tuning.

The differences lie in how those core issues are approached. The 4th point is where there is probably the largest disconnect between Blizz and community though. The revamp makes Shadow more difficult, but does less damage than "easier" rotations. We expected our damage to go down in beta, but not slashed to middle of the road on ST (where we are designed to excel). Also, the Insanity nerf was unexpected, since we were told that uptimes were on par with expectations. Unfortunately, there has been radio silence since tuning began for us to hear why we were brought down that far. Even some of the main "everything will be ok" posters have shown to be more disgruntled over the last few weeks.

[Kilee25]

On the topic of #4, I admit it worries me quite a bit. I honestly felt that what dropped spriest numbers in wod wasn't cop, but the complexity of the various rotations. Going from dotweaving straight into mouse-over AS dotting, etc... then straight into class trinket shennanigans... I feel the class has spent an entire expansion with rotations and play styles that are essentially driving players away in droves... And now Legion basically has a "baked in" level of similar complexity as its default state... Combined with the fact that the DPS might just simply be average or at best niche... it's not a good state for the class to be in at the very start of the expac if the hope/goal is to win players back to the class. I'm not speaking to experienced players, but the average joe who thinks void form is cool and rolls a priest... the average joe who doesn't read forums and strategy guides, and just goes into the spec blind looking for some fun. How does the class feel to that person? What talents will they pick based on their descriptions and how "fun" they sound? Will those talents work? Will this person get into a raid and do horribly and wonder why? That's what my concern is going into Legion.

[Kretan]

You can swear all you want. People have betas and had their chances to test it and make their own conclusions. "We're OK, we just have to do usual 200% effort to get 80% of any other rdps performance" - no, that's not ok, sorry.

An example of what I'm talking about. Really not based on anything other than random anger at blizzard and mages. Like Isentropy said a while back, some people just wake up like "how has blizzard pissed me off today?"

Regardless I'll drop it. Some people won't change.

[Sxq]

Can we all at least appreciate the challenge that the devs are facing when clearly no one even agrees what makes a spec fun/good? And that's just within the mmo-c community. There's a whole world of even different opinions elsewhere.

[RsinRC]

We (Shadow Priests) arent't aoe focused. That is quite evident. We do have tools but nothing thst makes us go nuts at aoe. With that being said, we are multi target focused big time. While the fury warrior is spamming his aoe on adds, the Shadow Priest is pumping out equal damage to the 3 or 4 targets with high health. Our damage scales up faster and higher with every target introduced with substantial health. The catch is we do not have the tools for true aoe. This is what the spec is now in legion and it DOES work. Its drastically different than wod's but you can overcome the concerns many people bring up.

To get to another point. I am aware that some here now are viewing things from other people's perspective. You see someone who has access to the game, have a complaint and ride that boat. I can guarantee to those without access that the moment you touch a level 110 shadow priest with full artifact access your perspective on the spec will change drastically.

Things arent as black or white as they appear on these forums. There is a crowd, for example, who feel/think that we lack survivabilty in pve. Yet you have many tools for keeping yourself topped out. You have the VT heal and its artifact trait that gives you an absorption at full health and the talent San'layn. You have dispersion and its 1.5 min cd heal. You have a shield. You have Vampiric Embrace and for last resort you have shadowmend. If you do keep dying it really isn't about the lack of survivabilty. Either the healers are doing something wrong, the tank not doing what they are supposed to, dps arent following mechanics or simply the shadowpriest is standing in fire.

In pvp our survivability toolkit is even more impressive. You have to know and predict exactly when you will need to use those abilities but thats the catch. You cant spam shield and think that is whats going to keep you alive but you do shirld when youre about to shell damage to gain the leech healing, which is op when done right. Like 10 - 100% health type shit. The only way to stop this absurd healing is to stun you because you have access to it every ~6s.

The spec isnt unplayble, no matter how some would like to portray it. The spec however drastically changed and has gained incredible new strengths and incredible new weaknesses.

What the class does lack and it has improved since the start is lack of interesting or competitive talent choices that make sense.

Hope everyone gets beta access soon.

[Seneca]

Can we all at least appreciate the challenge that the devs are facing when clearly no one even agrees what makes a spec fun/good? And that's just within the mmo-c community. There's a whole world of even different opinions elsewhere.

I am sorry if I might sound stubborn or arrogant, but, no, I don't think we can.

An enormous amount of feedback by an enormous amount of people has been given in the last 10 years (including this year) and 99% of that has been ignored and keep being ignored.

If they are not good enough to do things by their own and aren't even willingly to listen to feedback, then there's nothing to appreciate about them.

If the barman of my favourite café sucks at making coffees, and, in addition, do not care about the suggestions his clients give, then there's nothing to appreciate about his job (about his job, no about he as an individual, important distinction).

clearly no one even agrees what makes a spec fun/good?

Mhm, for example, just to list 1 point, just one mind you, the whole world, even my grandma, agree that *insert ranged spec here, spriest included* being raped by *insert melee spec here* is not what makes a spec fun/good to play (to quote your own words).

Said that, it sounds of little benefit to justify and follow fallacies like:

- only 1 person said that so it doesn't matter;
- no said anything about that thing in particular so it must be fine;
- the official site/mmo-champion don't include the whole playerbase so the feedback doesn't matter;
- 2 people said different things so what was said by both doesn't matter;
- and so on.

If the only feedback that is worth is the one given, a) at the same time, b) in the same place, c) by all the community, d) with unanimity, then we are more than sure that no feedback will ever be heard.

This doesn't mean that they should not use any criteria when taking feedback.

They could consider what the majority says (majority doesn't necessarily mean 50%+ of the playerbase, if there are 5 opinions expressed by 1000 players, the opinion with 20%+ "votes" is the one we are looking for), what can be applied in the game (for example aerial combat might be something the engine doesn't support), what is most relevant in a given time (an hotfix or small patch can't be used to rework a class), and so on.

They could also support the "feedback system" by introducing optional questionnaires, interviews, simple polls, surveys, which we can find in the official site, or when we log in, etc.