[Legion] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Jimjam38]

@Totaltotemic , @Atonement and any other active Disc priest testers out there, do you have any links to interesting disc vids to check out? I mostly checked as many as I could find on Youtube but most testers made me rest my head in my hands and some even caused me heartburn :P Would really appreciate seeing someone besides FinalBoss, Preach and AutomaticJak play a disc.

Man I wish I had beta, I'm no tester sadly. I've only been able to play around on the PTR a bit.
I have found one okay video though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckya-_c06pQ
Haven't watched through this one yet but found it while I was looking for the above link again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqi1V65rg_Y
My strategy is to google along the lines of 'disc legion beta raid' or something to that effect, then put it on videos and set it to within the last week or month.

[Totaltotemic]

SOoooooooooo, Is CoW good now? Seeing as healing 5 mans sometimes devolves into spamming Shadow Mend, I dont think I'd mind spamming CoW instead. 900% sp vs 770% sp(with artifact). I mean we'd be putting PW:S on the tank on CD anyway so the lack of atonement application wouldn't be a huge problem, and if we actually get a bit ahead in healing could give us time to spread atonement to the other group members. Shadowmend would still act is the "flash heal"....
I mean, so long as it doesn't become a thing in raids........maybe it isn't the literal devil... Maybe? I mean.... I wanted to use CoW in WoD. Guys...

CoW has a few advantages over SMend in 5 mans now, although having CoW doesn't necessarily mean you always want to use it over SMend. I don't think you would use it in a raid except to do some kind of cheesing because there are better tank healers and Halo/DS are too good to not have in raids (they're somewhat lackluster in 5 mans a lot of the time).

[Saiyoran]

Outside of situations where you can't position not to hit extra trash, Halo damage is pretty high for 5-mans. I can't really think of a dungeon that has enough instances of not being able to use Halo to want CoW.

[Totaltotemic]

Outside of situations where you can't position not to hit extra trash, Halo damage is pretty high for 5-mans. I can't really think of a dungeon that has enough instances of not being able to use Halo to want CoW.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, what does Halo's damage have to do with the comparison? Only one hit translates into healing, the rest is just a bit of extra damage that does no healing.

[Saiyoran]

I guess I wasn't clear. I was mostly saying that the difference between using CoW and not doesn't seem worth the damage loss. Shadowmend is still high single target throughput so you really only lose the ability to preshield or potentially mitigate a mechanic (which seems extremely niche and I haven't found many valid uses for so far). For 5 mans so far I just don't find the extra tool of CoW worth any kind of damage loss.

[Morrighan]

"Dominant Mind You may also control your own character while Mind Control is active, and Mind control now lasts 60 sec, but but Mind Control has a 3 min cooldown, and it may not be used against players. Priest - Level 45 Talent."

NOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo...... I enjoyed being a pet class, now it'll feel like a gimmick..

Also CoW is meh again if Shadowmend is 800%sp.

Edit: AND IT LASTS 30 SECONDS!!

[Totaltotemic]

Yeah I don't see a reason to even bother with Disc in Mythic+ serious runs (ones where you're not blazing through the dungeon) anymore. Damage is still great on faceroll runs (like when you outgear something by 10-15 ilvl) but when the content is challenging you end up having to use direct heals far too often to do much damage. Previously MCs would cover that deficit for you, and it was okay that the OP ones all got nerfed last build, but now Dominate Mind is basically removed from the game because you absolutely cannot afford to have mobs just unleash and not be able to re-control them when you're doing challenging levels.

Without the extra damage from a perma-pet, Disc brings very little damage when you're doing things hard enough to warrant Grace and Shadow Mend, at which point you might as well just play Holy because even Holy can still fit in damage on bosses to shorten them up and Disc's trash damage was really far behind on aoe anyway.

[Potta]

It is a shame, I really enjoyed Dominate Mind. But do keep in mind, the same patch buffed SM by ~15%, and reduced the cooldown on Pain Suppression quite significantly. The previous patch also had a 10% buff to PWS. These are all things which help significantly with our primary concern - keeping up the tank. If given a choice, I would prefer that MC takes the hit and we get balanced around being viable in all dungeons, rather than just the ones where MC could be abused. If you still feel like you have to go Grace even after a 15% buff, then there's absolutely more room to DPS now with the crazy amounts of healing a Grace'd, Twisted Fate SM Crit can do. If you don't feel like you need Grace anymore, then you can use PtW and get more damage that way.

I don't really think that MC was a great answer to our problems in Mythic+. It felt more like a powerful snowball effect, which was fantastic when you were doing overgeared content, allowing you to completely crush it, but it did not help at all with a tank bouncing between 5-30% HP.

[Atharaxie]

Buffing our single target Direct Heal is not a solution, it's a crutch. It reinforces our non atonement healing. And the nerf of Dominate Mind diminish our damage output.

These two are in contradiction with the spec fantsay : healing through damage.

I guess it's far too late in the beta to change that but some Atonement+ is needed on the tank, taking twice as much healing from damage as long as there isn't more than 5 atonement in the raid.

[Stabatya]

Wow... Talk about your unjustified nerfs. I was abit iffy on the idea on playing disc but id committed. Shadowmend buff + dominate mind nerf basically destroys the fun of the spec for me. Now i gotta decide if i wanna roll Holy or just use the next few weeks to gear up an alt well enough to make early legion leveling easy...

[Totaltotemic]

It is a shame, I really enjoyed Dominate Mind. But do keep in mind, the same patch buffed SM by ~15%, and reduced the cooldown on Pain Suppression quite significantly. The previous patch also had a 10% buff to PWS. These are all things which help significantly with our primary concern - keeping up the tank. If given a choice, I would prefer that MC takes the hit and we get balanced around being viable in all dungeons, rather than just the ones where MC could be abused. If you still feel like you have to go Grace even after a 15% buff, then there's absolutely more room to DPS now with the crazy amounts of healing a Grace'd, Twisted Fate SM Crit can do. If you don't feel like you need Grace anymore, then you can use PtW and get more damage that way.

I don't really think that MC was a great answer to our problems in Mythic+. It felt more like a powerful snowball effect, which was fantastic when you were doing overgeared content, allowing you to completely crush it, but it did not help at all with a tank bouncing between 5-30% HP.

If you don't need Grace, then you're not doing a high enough Mythic level for it to matter what you do. When Disc was struggling was when Grace and Shadow Mend spam wasn't enough, and buffing Shadow Mend by half of what Grace does doesn't suddenly let you drop Grace.

The extra damage is the only reason to put up with Disc's subpar healing. In 5 mans, the damage drops to almost nothing as you frantically try to keep the tank alive. MC before covered that drop in damage and let you maintain normal damage levels even while spamming the tank in higher Mythic levels. Now, sure, you'll have to spam slightly less, but you will still end up spamming the tank if you go 1 level higher. This hasn't changed how Disc works, it just allows you to go a level higher at which point your damage goes from mediocre to almost zero. From there, you have no more reason to be Disc and can just be Holy at that point and get better healing and drop the charade of trying to do damage entirely except when you have spare GCDs.

[Morrighan]

I dun understand why they had to sledge hammer the skill. What happened to tweeks. And then they leave us with the shattered remains on a talent row that was already dead on arrival.

...

Okay that was pretty dramatic, bu DM was pretty fun.
That row is now "niche" at best.

[Deleted]

I don't know about disc anymore, I just don't. Being told we're never going to be good enough just kinda makes me wanna flip a table, shrug it off with a longing smile and walk away from it all. There's never a reward in how disc plays, it's like this extremely brainy chicken running around predicting, planning and building a master plan up to achieve what every other healer does relatively effortlessly and has an immediate reward of health being bumped up.

Our atonement (primary way of healing and design philosophy behind this class which is what at least got me interested in it) has no immediate reward when putting it up, and we're essentially wasting GCDs on what should eventually pay off in the long run, unfortunately neither the damage nor the healing is anything to write home about.

Finally you've got the predictions themselves. Who takes damage? Everyone - can't cover everyone, pick and choose the fragile or the best performers and hope it works out. Some of them? Good luck figuring out who that is ahead of time enough to spend your GCDs setting them up with atonements and timing everything perfectly to heal them back up, for essentially the same amount other healers do by peeking at low health bars and just tossing something on them.

I wish atonements were designed a bit more interestingly than in this clunky one-by-one system that it is. Our damage goes outta the window anyways if we're expected to be present and performant in a healing capacity, and even after all is said and done and we somehow come out ahead, it never really feels rewarding or impactful =/

I'm just ranting here, but it's mostly cause the light at the end of the tunnel seems to be fading out to me.

[Symmone]

I don't know about disc anymore, I just don't. Being told we're never going to be good enough just kinda makes me wanna flip a table, shrug it off with a longing smile and walk away from it all. There's never a reward in how disc plays, it's like this extremely brainy chicken running around predicting, planning and building a master plan up to achieve what every other healer does relatively effortlessly and has an immediate reward of health being bumped up.

Our atonement (primary way of healing and design philosophy behind this class which is what at least got me interested in it) has no immediate reward when putting it up, and we're essentially wasting GCDs on what should eventually pay off in the long run, unfortunately neither the damage nor the healing is anything to write home about.

Finally you've got the predictions themselves. Who takes damage? Everyone - can't cover everyone, pick and choose the fragile or the best performers and hope it works out. Some of them? Good luck figuring out who that is ahead of time enough to spend your GCDs setting them up with atonements and timing everything perfectly to heal them back up, for essentially the same amount other healers do by peeking at low health bars and just tossing something on them.

I wish atonements were designed a bit more interestingly than in this clunky one-by-one system that it is. Our damage goes outta the window anyways if we're expected to be present and performant in a healing capacity, and even after all is said and done and we somehow come out ahead, it never really feels rewarding or impactful =/

I'm just ranting here, but it's mostly cause the light at the end of the tunnel seems to be fading out to me.

I feel you.

My added complaints are that they are buffing direct healing spells and leaving us with a poor AOE toolkit for certain situations which like others said, is contradictory to the original class fantasy. If we need to focus so hard one single target direct healing to the point where we cant do damage, the entire highlight of this spec is irrelevant. This of course is only for 5 mans though, I dont think these changes will have a huge impact on raiding.

So again, make sure you have a holy spec ready on the fly.

[drtrann]

I don't know about disc anymore, I just don't. Being told we're never going to be good enough just kinda makes me wanna flip a table, shrug it off with a longing smile and walk away from it all. There's never a reward in how disc plays, it's like this extremely brainy chicken running around predicting, planning and building a master plan up to achieve what every other healer does relatively effortlessly and has an immediate reward of health being bumped up.

Our atonement (primary way of healing and design philosophy behind this class which is what at least got me interested in it) has no immediate reward when putting it up, and we're essentially wasting GCDs on what should eventually pay off in the long run, unfortunately neither the damage nor the healing is anything to write home about.

Finally you've got the predictions themselves. Who takes damage? Everyone - can't cover everyone, pick and choose the fragile or the best performers and hope it works out. Some of them? Good luck figuring out who that is ahead of time enough to spend your GCDs setting them up with atonements and timing everything perfectly to heal them back up, for essentially the same amount other healers do by peeking at low health bars and just tossing something on them.

I wish atonements were designed a bit more interestingly than in this clunky one-by-one system that it is. Our damage goes outta the window anyways if we're expected to be present and performant in a healing capacity, and even after all is said and done and we somehow come out ahead, it never really feels rewarding or impactful =/

I'm just ranting here, but it's mostly cause the light at the end of the tunnel seems to be fading out to me.

this is how I felt after the last raid testing.

there is no point in trying to chase random healing in raids. unless everyone takes damage, throwing out random atonements is a waste of time and dps.

at this point it feels like our position in raid is to just throw atonement on the 3-5 people affected by a dot/ ticking mechanic, and then pw:s the tank. otherwise do not sustain heal at all and focus on dps. then when predictable AOE damage happens, blow all your CD's and maybe do 50% of what everyone else is doing.

I just don't see it contributing enough to be worth anything.

and I'm not sure what could be done about it. also direct healing is balls. I understand why it has to exist in some form, but it shouldn't be our main way to heal a tank. +1 for x*atonement healing mechanics.

[Symmone]

this is how I felt after the last raid testing.

there is no point in trying to chase random healing in raids. unless everyone takes damage, throwing out random atonements is a waste of time and dps.

at this point it feels like our position in raid is to just throw atonement on the 3-5 people affected by a dot/ ticking mechanic, and then pw:s the tank. otherwise do not sustain heal at all and focus on dps. then when predictable AOE damage happens, blow all your CD's and maybe do 50% of what everyone else is doing.

I just don't see it contributing enough to be worth anything.

and I'm not sure what could be done about it. also direct healing is balls. I understand why it has to exist in some form, but it shouldn't be our main way to heal a tank. +1 for x*atonement healing mechanics.

I disagree that dps without atonement is a waste of time. DPS and healing are more or less two sides of our throughput coin where just because people are not low health doesnt mean you should stop dps. Our value is also in our dps so we should always still be casting.

[Ulmir]

The latest changes to CoW, SM and DM is adding up to a nail in the coffin for disc in my opinion. More direct healing, less damage and a spec that is still looking sub-par in so many situations is just saddening. It will have to turn out amazing for raiding to remain remotely interesting for me personally.

[grizzlysaurusrex]

If Disc had a single target permanent separate atonement would it help mythic+ and pvp? Or would it end up overpowered? Something where if you place it on the tank, they always get atonement healed, and allowing you to get double the atonement benefit on that target if you apply atonement from the normal sources.

[fallenangel-succ]

Let me follow the logic here.
- The more they buff the direct heals of the spec, the worst it gets.
- Atonement is hard to use because it entails predicting who takes damage. Unlike rejuv, or a spell you might know, PW:S.
- Using MC as a terribly random and swingy way of balancing disc's damage in 5 mans was a good idea. Not to mention a DPS spec having access to it as well.

Instead, I propose a different model:
- For raids, buffing PW:S is a cute little bonus and having SM as a stronger clutch heal can be nice, but not too significant.
- For dungeons, it gets more complicated. Disc is probably capped here in how much it can do these instances at a high level, outside of specific groups (2 tanks). I recall asking about it here, and the conclusion was that it's fine as is, and grace and SM cover that angle. I'm honestly not sure how they want to be balance this, but I'll tell you one thing - it's totally unbalanced if both disc and other healing specs can heal Mythic+ X while still allowing disc to do meaningful damage. That one's not going to fly.

[Deleted]

but I'll tell you one thing - it's totally unbalanced if both disc and other healing specs can heal Mythic+ X while still allowing disc to do meaningful damage. That one's not going to fly.

It flies best if disc doesn't get to do them then? I get what you're saying, but it's not correct to take the "It's k to suck at your job cause of dps" approach especially when healer is the pivotal position - bad tanks and dps are manageable, a bad healer, especially an inherently bad healer can easily break group content potential.

I personally don't mind the change to Dominate Mind. It's a nice little thing to both mitigate some damage in big pulls and add damage of your own to it. It's a nice utility skill if used correctly.

and I'm not sure what could be done about it. also direct healing is balls. I understand why it has to exist in some form, but it shouldn't be our main way to heal a tank. +1 for x*atonement healing mechanics.

I'm not gonna pretend to have any answers either since I also don't have any conclusive answer as to what the correct solution is, if such a thing exists in the current meta, however there are a lot of things that could be tried by blizzard's end. Their approach in new exps has always been to throw everything at a wall until enough stuff sticks. They seem to be cutting it short and moving on with disc however, it seems this wall is too slippery.

• But they could have experimented with shrine (totem like) based atonements (area based placement effecting anyone nearby, up to a maximum number, lowest health first for example).
• Provide us out of GCD atonement placement proc by damage, allowing us to get rid of that annoying clunkiness in atonement application.
• Charge based penance, giving us extra charges, up to a maximum of 3, triggered from SW:P or Purge / Shield crits, allowing us to properly leverage our burst potential, making it feel rewarding for direct healing.

We have a very plain, pale shell of what could be a very cool damage-healing hybrid instead :/