France demands EU invoke mutual-defense clause

[Slant]

You don't think the extremists want to revive the Caliphate? Anger only gets you so far but an ideology can get you to the moon.

Of course. But right now the ideology doesn't have to present any other bulletin point than "Look how the West is mistreating us."

This is less about what the US actually did and what the actual consequences of that were. To be honest, I think the consequences of US involvement are far less than what the Extremists claim them to be. But that doesn't matter. What matters is who's on the ground in those regions (ISIS), who's in control of the information on that ground (ISIS) and who's believed (ISIS).

So anytime a bomb falls, some of those people think "Gosh, they're right..."

As false as that may be, that's most likely what's going on there. Thus involving the US any more than they are is like holding a red cloth in front of a raging bull.

And the other aspect is, no offense, that the US tends to behave rather rudely in those countries. Local customs and practices are largely ignored, power balances are misinterpreted and consequences are not thought through. Removing Saddam in itself is a goal everyone on the planet can get behind. But doing so without setting up a followup to Saddam was reckless at best.

Would it change anything if the US admitted that now? Nope. Not one bit. The best we can do with that knowledge is to contain the crisis, not do any similar rash action that cannot be reversed and think about what it is they actually want.

Robin Hobb once wrote for one of her characters a line that's so smart it needs quoting here "Don't do what can't be undone before you've considered what you can't do once you've done it." It's time to start thinking really hard about ISIS and counter-propaganda on Fox News is not it, I'm sure we can all agree on that. Europe may be the key. Not despite the high muslim portion in the population but because of it.

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When France says EU i think they mean Germany.

I doubt that. Everyone knows our military is a joke. Nobody wants us to flex our industrial muscles again. Not that way.

[Grimbold21]

I doubt that. Everyone knows our military is a joke. Nobody wants us to flex our industrial muscles again. Not that way.

Who else then? Im gonna ignorantly say that the rest of European countries have mere token forces.

[Slant]

Who else then? Im gonna ignorantly say that the rest of European countries have mere token forces.

I think it's the sum of the European forces that are interesting instead of just looking at single countries. That's kind of the point of such self defense clauses. Let's be honest for a second here, Germany is not in NATO because we think we'd be such swell contributors to any major conflict involving NATO (ie. WW3). We're in it for everyone else's guaranteed protection if something happens to us.

Not to suck up to the US, but I think they're the only ones that could afford to ditch such a defensive pact and still be secure.

[Grimbold21]

I think it's the sum of the European forces that are interesting instead of just looking at single countries. That's kind of the point of such self defense clauses. Let's be honest for a second here, Germany is not in NATO because we think we'd be such swell contributors to any major conflict involving NATO (ie. WW3). We're in it for everyone else's guaranteed protection if something happens to us.

Not to suck up to the US, but I think they're the only ones that could afford to ditch such a defensive pact and still be secure.

But say that France's requests for assistance translate into ground invasion. Resource wise id imagine most countries could only contribute token forcez.

[Slant]

But say that France's requests for assistance translate into ground invasion. Resource wise id imagine most countries could only contribute token forcez.

Uh, no... I think it's a bit more than that. If you combine European forces, they are pretty significant on paper. And certainly enough to deal with a region like the Middle East if you talk about sheer projection of force. The problem in modern warfare, and the US knows this only too well, is that "war" has to be fought nicely now. We're back to middle age knighthood style of playing nice on the battlefield. Civilians getting in the way Is Just Not Acceptable. And we have glorious Rules of Engagement that force our troops to behave and think twice about shooting that motherfucker who just picked up an AK. Is he gonna shoot? Is he just looking at you funny? Nope, gotta wait until you hear the bullet crack...

See, the last time Europe didn't play nice it was so ugly, some are still recoiling from the thought of an all out war, targeting civilian population specifically to break morale among the population. Wiping out two entire cities just to make a fucking point...

It's the achilles heel of our modern civilisation that we're too nice to play dirty. And dirty is all terrorists do. So, I'm not even sure we should put ground troops in Syria. We wouldn't gain anything out of it. The best outcome would be us demolishing ISIS and another group forming up being even more extreme with the argument "Look how they martyred our glorious brothers who're now fucking 70 virgins in heaven... Jihad all the way, let's actively go for the civlian population in Europe, let's not just target prestige objects, let's go for shopping malls!"

[Kalis]

Who else then? Im gonna ignorantly say that the rest of European countries have mere token forces.

The UK doesn't. Plus other nations have special forces that could be used.

Italy and Germany also have numbers, though they both have a bad reputation.

[Slant]

The UK doesn't. Plus other nations have special forces that could be used.

Italy and Germany also have numbers, though they both have a bad reputation.

Just unleash us, I dare you...

[Kalis]

Just unleash us, I dare you...

You'll just invade Poland again.

[Slant]

You'll just invade Poland again.

Only to get our cars back!

[lonely zergling]

Only to get our cars back!

You mean what is left of them.

[Slant]

You mean what is left of them.

Well, we won't go to Russia again just to get the tires, the spoilers, the engine, the steering wheel and the doors back. That's just way too much effort at this stage. We're happy with the mainframe so we can melt it down and use it again, I suppose. :P

[Kellhound]

They may just want to use it to force the EU to quit letting terrorists in as "refugees"....

France is the 2nd or 3rd best able country in NATO to project power, NATO (and the EU) can't really offer them much help militarily.

[Noradin]

I doubt that. Everyone knows our military is a joke. Nobody wants us to flex our industrial muscles again. Not that way.

It isn't really, it is just unsuited for that kind of purpose.
No use defending against rockets and ships when the other side doesn't use any for example.

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Germany is not in NATO because we think we'd be such swell contributors to any major conflict involving NATO (ie. WW3). We're in it for everyone else's guaranteed protection if something happens to us.

You are underestimation German contributions - which admittedly is by design (by the German politican leaders).
Yes, they do not focus on offense, but a big part of why you never hear of them is because everyone involved knows to downplay their contribtuions.

[Kuntantee]

I doubt that. Everyone knows our military is a joke. Nobody wants us to flex our industrial muscles again. Not that way.

Why would you need a military anyway? You are in the middle of Europe...

[willemh]

They may just want to use it to force the EU to quit letting terrorists in as "refugees"....

France is the 2nd or 3rd best able country in NATO to project power, NATO (and the EU) can't really offer them much help militarily.

France is the 6th largest military power in the world. The UK is 5th, Germany is 8th. Many other EU countries just have a smaller, but just as advanced military that can all provide significant support to France. It's not like France needs to use it's whole army in Syria, not even close, it's more that they need advanced intelligence and tactical weaponry, many European countries can contribute with that. I mean France alone has 1263 military aircrafts, but my guess is they are using like 20 of them at the moment in Syria?

[Slant]

Why would you need a military anyway? You are in the middle of Europe...

I know, right?

By now we're having military out of habit and obligation to everyone else more than actual necessity.

[turboether]

If nothing else it is the first sign of solidarity within the EU in a long time.

[bufferunderrun]

it's just a measure to keep the public calm, in term of fighting terrorism atm it would be better to give any secret agent in europe "kill license" and murder all those european who secretly support jihadist.

[GennGreymane]

They likely want to show this is something the E.U can handle. Which is what they need to do. Going through Nato is just asking the U.S to do it, as the U.S is the bulk of Nato.

[Paula Deen]

So the EU doesn't help and they look bad?

Wait they already look terrible, so it doesn't matter.