Unpopular lore opinions

[Whoops]

We've outright killed 2 old gods at this point, so if they're controlling us, they're doing a shitty job.

Are you talking about C'Thun and Yoggy? They're not dead, simply banished. They will likely return in some way at some point.

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The Horde is a bunch of dopey looking Muppet-wannabes with tusks and horns glued on, that are played by Edge-lord mental midgets with the mentality of pathetic teenagers. Belves are boring-as-fuck pretty pretty princesses that were shoehorned into the horde to save a failing faction, and to fulfill the fantasies of players that can't handle a fantasy beyond "I WARNA BE PERFECTTTTTT AND PRETTTYYYYY!!". Fuck the Horde and fuck it's pathetic edge-lord players. Alliance is just straight up fantasy. No coat of edgy paint needed. No bullshit. Just right.

I struggle to understand the mentality of some horde players as well, but you're not exactly making Alliance players seem like beacons of rationality either, by writing stuff like this.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Whether or not the land belongs to her and the forsaken is up for debate, but you can't tell me that what she did to the Gilneans and the humans of Hillsbrad wasn't evil.

Compared to other shit that happens in WoW? And the Blight was in this case completely ineffective as shown from Forsaken quests, not hurting Worgen enough to even slow them down. When you are in a world where you can have your soul ripped out by Alliance / Horde warlocks or turned into a mindless Undead by a alliance/Horde death knight. Getting killed by Blight that effectively kills you in a couple of seconds isn't that evil.

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The means and ends of warfare are fairly arbitrary honestly. Warlocks literally wield disembodied souls, DKs raise corpses from death and enslave them to their will. Very little of what happens in Warcraft is black and white and is fairly morally ambiguous if you keep the world they live in in perspective.

Beat me to it.

You can also add being burned to death by Alliance/Horde mages/ all the shitty horrible ways druids can kill you etc.

[Nekrotix]

Thrall didn't cheat
(This'll really rile up some Garrosh Fanbois)

[Ciddy]

Pandaria and pandaren are cool and fit perfectly into the lore of warcraft.

Same here. I think Pandaren don't deserve all the hate they seem to get.

[Whoops]

Compared to other shit that happens in WoW? And the Blight was in this case completely ineffective as shown from Forsaken quests, not hurting Worgen enough to even slow them down. When you are in a world where you can have your soul ripped out by Alliance / Horde warlocks or turned into a mindless Undead by a alliance/Horde death knight. Getting killed by Blight that effectively kills you in a couple of seconds isn't that evil.

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Beat me to it.

You can also add being burned to death by Alliance/Horde mages/ all the shitty horrible ways druids can kill you etc.

I'm not interested in comparing evil. Evil is evil, and the forsaken as a faction is morally reprehensible and vile.

[Wildberry]

Vol'jin is a terrible Wa--

Oh, wait, that opinion seems to be fairly popular here. Couldn't have done it without your help, guys. Next target: Official Forums! Buckle up for cancer and hugboxes.

Jokes aside: Garrosh did nothing wrong.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm not interested in comparing evil. Evil is evil, and the forsaken as a faction is morally reprehensible and vile.

Not really, since the only form of "tru evul" in Warcraft would have meant all the Forsaken would have already been wiped out, and with Sylvanas fighting next to Varian in that new cinematic you can't even argue they are selfish.

[Florena]

I loved MoP's story, lore and zones. Not perfect but I enjoyed it a lot.

I have no issue with Jaina/Kalec or other interracial realtionships in the game.

Anduin really isn't all that bad as a character.

[Alefnir]

MoP's storyline felt far out of place and introduced a race that was incompatible with the moral ambiguity that's been an important theme of Warcraft ever since its beginning.

The Forsaken and Death Knights are not inherently evil. There are in-game examples of this.

[Rizendragon]

What are your opinions that aren't accepted by most of the lore community?

I liked Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK as much as WC3.
The Night Elves don't have it as bad as people say they do.

I like the lore as a whole. Seems like more and more people are saying that the story is shit...

[Shortsy]

Jokes aside: Garrosh did nothing wrong.

He absolutely did do wrong. His arrogance had no place in Horde leadership.

He was appointed a counsel to aid in his transition into a warchief, a voice of seasoned leaders who could steady his judgement and show choices, as well as their repercussions, in major decisions.

He cast them away.

He had ample chances to learn the responsibilities and discipline of a leader, perhaps even become a greater leader than his father.

He didn't. He chose to continue his arrogant, selfish and racist agenda, caring little for any other race save for other Orcs.

A strong, smart leader would seek diplomacy before needlessly putting your men at risk. Garrosh throws bodies at what he doesn't have (ex. Ashenvale lumber). Instead of building better relationships with other factions of the Horde, he'd rather send their troops on suicidal/menial tasks and aggressively taunts their leaders into reaction when he shows his cards (Blood elves/Lorthemar and Darkspear Trolls/Vol'jin).

Garrosh had every opportunity to become exactly the Warchief the Horde needed, but chose only to strengthened himself. Sure, Thrall could have chosen a better leader, like Cairne (granted, he's older than petrified shit); but Garrosh brought it upon himself with the choices he made.

He's akin to a 10 year old in a daycare, and the nanny gave him the big boy hat.

[toiletgecko]

At no point did Garrosh do anything wrong.

[The Madgod]

He absolutely did do wrong. His arrogance had no place in Horde leadership.

He was appointed a counsel to aid in his transition into a warchief, a voice of seasoned leaders who could steady his judgement and show choices, as well as their repercussions, in major decisions.

He cast them away.

He had ample chances to learn the responsibilities and discipline of a leader, perhaps even become a greater leader than his father.

He didn't. He chose to continue his arrogant, selfish and racist agenda, caring little for any other race save for other Orcs.

A strong, smart leader would seek diplomacy before needlessly putting your men at risk. Garrosh throws bodies at what he doesn't have (ex. Ashenvale lumber). Instead of building better relationships with other factions of the Horde, he'd rather send their troops on suicidal/menial tasks and aggressively taunts their leaders into reaction when he shows his cards (Blood elves/Lorthemar and Darkspear Trolls/Vol'jin).

Garrosh had every opportunity to become exactly the Warchief the Horde needed, but chose only to strengthened himself. Sure, Thrall could have chosen a better leader, like Cairne (granted, he's older than petrified shit); but Garrosh brought it upon himself with the choices he made.

He's akin to a 10 year old in a daycare, and the nanny gave him the big boy hat.

That's why he said it in an unpopular lore opinions thread. You're playing into his game, mate.

[Shortsy]

That's why he said it in an unpopular lore opinions thread. You're playing into his game, mate.

You're right.

I fell for the b8 m8.

[Akani]

Are you talking about C'Thun and Yoggy? They're not dead, simply banished. They will likely return in some way at some point.
.

C'Thun was killed by players and was RESURRECTED in the comics. Not resummoned, not contacted beyond our mortal plane, resurrected; just to be killed again. There are also blueposts talking about Yogg-Saron's corpse rotting under Northrend.

People making loose assumptions with lore like this is the reason we have an Infinite Legion. Fans have been saying 'you can't kill a demon outside the Nether' for years with no proof and the lore outright contradicting that (quest references to Archimonde dying in TBC and Felwood) and Blizz finally decided to cave to dumb fan theories. Please don't let this happen again.

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I struggle to understand the mentality of some horde players as well, but you're not exactly making Alliance players seem like beacons of rationality either, by writing stuff like this.

I struggle the mentality of someone that plays a high-fantasy game with demons, zombies, and anthropomorphic cows but still decides to play as a human or one of the two midget human races. Even if you don't pick human, dwarf or gnome the storytelling is still the exact same; lawful good organization bound by lawful good restrictions. No cultural differences, no moral quandaries, no major character development.

[Gurluas]

Worgen were much better as extra-dimensional monsters controlled by a dark power, rather than a failed Nelf druid form.

Also Lordaeron belongs to the Lordaeronian Refugees as much as it does to the Forsaken.

[Nethlord]

C'Thun was killed by players and was RESURRECTED in the comics. Not resummoned, not contacted beyond our mortal plane, resurrected; just to be killed again. There are also blueposts talking about Yogg-Saron's corpse rotting under Northrend.

People making loose assumptions with lore like this is the reason we have an Infinite Legion. Fans have been saying 'you can't kill a demon outside the Nether' for years with no proof and the lore outright contradicting that (quest references to Archimonde dying in TBC and Felwood) and Blizz finally decided to cave to dumb fan theories. Please don't let this happen again.

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I struggle the mentality of someone that plays a high-fantasy game with demons, zombies, and anthropomorphic cows but still decides to play as a human or one of the two midget human races. Even if you don't pick human, dwarf or gnome the storytelling is still the exact same; lawful good organization bound by lawful good restrictions. No cultural differences, no moral quandaries, no major character development.

This is not D&D, your point is moot.

[Akani]

I'm not interested in comparing evil. Evil is evil, and the forsaken as a faction is morally reprehensible and vile.

If you want to split hairs, it could be argued that the Forsaken are Chaotic Neutral rather than evil. On a serious note though, in a war-torn land where apocalypse is literally looming overhead, arguing over whether people that are fighting on the side protecting the world are "big meanies" or not is just childish.

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This is not D&D, your point is moot.

This is basically D&D with graphics and Blizzard uses classic D&D alignment to describe races in the Warcraft RPG, the World of Warcraft RPG, and several times in World of Warcraft (the WotLK website called the magnataur chaotic neutral). Your point is moot.

[Mormolyce]

According to this thread Sylvanas being good is unpopular but so is her being evil.

I guess I'm in the majority thinking she's neither?

New Old God lore is absolute garbage.

Gnomes, Worgen and Tauren can suck it as far as lore development goes.

All Old God lore is new :P

[Wildberry]

He absolutely did do wrong. His arrogance had no place in Horde leadership.

Being humble is not a qualification for Warchief.

He was appointed a counsel to aid in his transition into a warchief, a voice of seasoned leaders who could steady his judgement and show choices, as well as their repercussions, in major decisions.

His counselors were who, again?

-Cairne: Falsely accused Garrosh of a crime, tried to usurp leadership.
-Vol'jin: Threatened to Kill Garrosh.
-Eitrigg: Never tried anything too stupid with Garrosh like the above two; however, he still let partisanship cripple his counsel.

To actually build off from that, Garrosh was taking the Horde in a completely new direction, a shift in policy, if you will. Thrall acknowledged that while speaking to Vol'jin. Instead of trying to compromise on issues, or advise Garrosh on how exactly to go about these things, even temper his ambitions a bit, they instead just say "No," then kick their feet.

One threw a tantrum over Garrosh, and didn't bother even trying to advise him. The other threatened treason because he disagreed, and the third wouldn't budge from his positions.

A strong, smart leader would seek diplomacy before needlessly putting your men at risk. Garrosh throws bodies at what he doesn't have (ex. Ashenvale lumber).

Diplomatic avenues had already been tried. Orgrimmar was barely getting by even with Ashenvale's exports. The Night Elves cut them off in response to the Wrathgate incident. Swift action had to be taken, and while Garrosh was an early proponent of war, even Thrall (The Shattering) acknowledged the possibility of war, but hoped to use it as a last resort. Cairne volunteered to, then Warchief Thrall, send Hamuul Runetotem & others to meet with Night Elven druids, hoping to use the Cenarion Circle as an avenue. The Night Elves were initially reluctant, but agreed. They were ambushed by Orcish assassins (Hamuul being the sole survivor), and the entirety of the Alliance assumed it was Garrosh Hellscream. Cairne and Hamuul both thought that as well. This was all despite the fact that Garrosh, even after assuming the mantle of Warchief, was planning on letting Thrall's first suggestion (Cairne's idea of diplomacy) play out.

Garrosh's people were starving, and in need of resources, diplomacy had been tried with your largest geopolitical enemy, but it was sabotaged. This enemy had recently just declared open-war on your nation, and has historically fought very bloody conflicts against you in the past. Even if he had wanted to try and protest his innocence (Something that would've been excruciatingly difficult, considering the Alliance's worldview at the time), did he really have the time?

Even assuming that the situation worked out peacefully (Again, we're looking at <1%) it would mean nothing but a return to Orgrimmar's state of "Just scraping by," all whilst pouring large amounts of money into a rival's hands just to have access to necessary resources. How would that have played out after the Cataclysm devastated the world's supply of natural resources?

Instead of building better relationships with other factions of the Horde, he'd rather send their troops on suicidal/menial tasks and aggressively taunts their leaders into reaction when he shows his cards (Blood elves/Lorthemar and Darkspear Trolls/Vol'jin).

I see you're not mentioning the Tauren and Trolls actively doing their best not to build a better relationship with Garrosh. Either way, asking for members to participate in a war effort isn't 'suicidal,' nor is it menial. People often fail to look at the risks incurred by Orcs before and during Garrosh's reign. They were the ones to found
Durotar, they saved the Bloodhoof Tribe from extinction, granted the Darkspear their resources, sent troops abroad to help defend Forsaken territories leaving their own exposed to attack, they formed the backbone of the Horde military, throughout the Battle of Mt. Hyjal (Vol'jin, despite Horde membership, wasn't even on the continent at the time), the initial few battles against Theramore, the Expansion into Kalimdor, the following years, the invasion of Outland, the War against the Scourge, the War against the Twilight's Hammer, and the Horde/Alliance war. Asking other races to take a larger role, after years of practically being the only Horde race doing anything doesn't quite fit the description you're giving.

Furthermore, since you want to use Vol'jin as a case of Garrosh "aggressively taunting" his subordinates, might I refresh your memory and point out that Vol'jin was the first to disrespect him as Warchief? Only to go on immediately after and make a death threat?

Garrosh had every opportunity to become exactly the Warchief the Horde needed, but chose only to strengthened himself. Sure, Thrall could have chosen a better leader, like Cairne (granted, he's older than petrified shit); but Garrosh brought it upon himself with the choices he made.

Cairne wouldn't have been able to handle the domestic crisis amongst the Horde, the Cataclysm, and the sabotaging of relations by the Twilight's Hammer. He lacked widespread support, he (And even Thrall) was seen as out-of-touch, too inclined towards peace, and lacking any major accomplishments. Plus, he couldn't even manage to blame the right person for an attack, or listen to reason on the matter.