[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Morally Grey Storm]

*PvP balance is different, because you really have to take burst damage into account there - eg back-to-back Divine Purpose procs = problem. I'm just talking about PvE here.

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back DP procs.
Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back critical strikes on high crit classes such as roujes and durids.Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?
Why they are not ablanced arouns such possibility?

[Taeldorian]

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back DP procs.
Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back critical strikes on high crit classes such as roujes and durids.Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?
Why they are not ablanced arouns such possibility?

Curious, with all that you've said in here are you planning on maining ret in Legion? I love the satirical shit but I'm genuinely curious.

Edit: On topic though, I could see us getting more charges of holy power, just not this late into alpha with 3 months left to go and them stating they're only going to be adjusting classes, not really changing any mechanics. We originally had 4 HoPo and it was boosted to 5 in cata, so I mean we could definitely get an increase, but we're a little late on the suggestion. I'd love for it to happen though.

Edit: On the other hand, I guess it could be considered a somewhat small change, even though everything would have to be adjusted to fit x Holy Power. I'm not trying to repeat myself but I'm going to anyway. I still would like to see the charges and/or duration increase/CD decrease on judgement. 1. More holy power (10) 2. Charges on judgement (2-3) 3. CD reduction (6 seconds instead of 12) and longer duration (15-30 seconds instead of 6), all of these would be wonderful changes that would help immensely. Wonder if we'll ever see them

[Morally Grey Storm]

Curious, with all that you've said in here are you planning on maining ret in Legion? I love the satirical shit but I'm genuinely curious.

On topic though, I could see us getting more charges of holy power, just not this late into alpha with 3 months left to go and them stating they're only going to be adjusting classes, not really changing any mechanics. We originally had 4 HoPo and it was boosted to 5 in cata, so I mean we could definitely get an increase, but we're a little late on the suggestion. I'd love for it to happen though.

On the other hand, I guess it could be considered a somewhat small change, even though everything would have to be adjusted to fit x Holy Power. I'm not trying to repeat myself but I'm going to anyway. I still would like to see the charges and/or duration increase/CD decrease on judgement. 1. More holy power (10) 2. Charges on judgement (2-3) 3. CD reduction (6 seconds instead of 12) and longer duration (15-30 seconds instead of 6), all of these would be wonderful changes that would help immensely. Wonder if we'll ever see them

I've had enough.
I'm levelling Fury warrior and Frost DK, just in case.
I've stayed Ret for 6 or so years . I literally had 1 character on my account.
But enough is enough.

But what's more likely is I will stray away from this shithole of a game finally.
It just gets worse and worse.
Devs are getting incredibly lazy.
This is not the World of Warcraft I knew and loved any longer.

[Teleros]

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back DP procs.
Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?

I'd rather such back to back procs either (a) couldn't happen (eg ICD) or (b) didn't matter enough to be a big issue in PvP.

3-4 back to back DP procs are quite possible though, and on a stunned target will be extremely unpleasant to be on the receiving end of. The solution to this, of course, is to go straight to the WoW forums and demand Ret nerfs.

And for what it's worth, I would try to balance things to minimise the ability of crit streaks to blow people up too quickly.

[Deleted]

There are some things that have been asked for in significant numbers and Blizzard have responded.

People asked for procs, consecration and the removal of talents that just buff the damage of baseline abilities. Can't blame Blizzard for implementing any of these because many Rets undeniably asked for them.

[ruiizu]

I think mostly it's the desire to min/max by minimising RNG. It sucks when your DPS varies by a lot due to procs after all.

BTW you said you have alpha access now, right? Did you see my earlier post re useful information to get & ask the devs?

Which questions? I've asked several questions but haven't received a response, particularly about:

JV's coefficient numbers
Hammer of Reckoning scaling numbers (no information currently available that I'm aware of)
Legendary boots do not contribute runspeed from Sanctified Wrath's haste
Cooldown of Divine Steed feels too long for a talent/lack of default runspeed mechanic feels too punitive
No default interface UI for debuffs on unit frames (e.g.: you cannot see Judgment on targets unless you turn on name plates, but the debuff is very tiny)

To name a few things. I also got an answer that Divine Steed is actually 120% runspeed boost because of Heart of the Crusader, so it's actually really fast.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'd rather such back to back procs either (a) couldn't happen (eg ICD) or (b) didn't matter enough to be a big issue in PvP.

3-4 back to back DP procs are quite possible though, and on a stunned target will be extremely unpleasant to be on the receiving end of. The solution to this, of course, is to go straight to the WoW forums and demand Ret nerfs.

And for what it's worth, I would try to balance things to minimise the ability of crit streaks to blow people up too quickly.

And what if a certain spec of a certain class is built entirely around the idea of blowing people up with chains of procs and crits?
What if said spec has little else to offer to his comp besides burst as he lacks cc, Ms effect or any debuff of sorts, any semblance of mobility, selfhealing tied to hardcasts while having no way to speed casts up, literally nothing to defend himself besides good old gimmicky bubble of immunity.
How would you balance that?

[ruiizu]

There are some things that have been asked for in significant numbers and Blizzard have responded.

People asked for procs, consecration and the removal of talents that just buff the damage of baseline abilities. Can't blame Blizzard for implementing any of these because many Rets undeniably asked for them.

I don't hate Consecration, but I wish the glyphs still existed to let you target it/carry it with you. The removal of those options sucks. They added a proc back on Divine Purpose, but in reality Divine Purpose no longer works as well as in Live because of Judgment.

I think they've done a good number of things they've asked, and a lot of things are looking good. It's the things we didn't ask for (changes from Live) that in some cases suck, particularly the Judgment window. I'm not personally a fan because it conflicts with the Holy Power model, in my opinion.

Also as far as people go with Divine Purpose, I always thought it should have a RPPM system where the longer time goes by, the more chance it has to proc. Results in a much more normal instance of procs with still chances for chain procs, albeit lower chances.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't hate Consecration, but I wish the glyphs still existed to let you target it/carry it with you. The removal of those options sucks. They added a proc back on Divine Purpose, but in reality Divine Purpose no longer works as well as in Live because of Judgment.

I think they've done a good number of things they've asked, and a lot of things are looking good. It's the things we didn't ask for (changes from Live) that in some cases suck, particularly the Judgment window. I'm not personally a fan because it conflicts with the Holy Power model, in my opinion.

Also as far as people go with Divine Purpose, I always thought it should have a RPPM system where the longer time goes by, the more chance it has to proc. Results in a much more normal instance of procs with still chances for chain procs, albeit lower chances.

At this point, I don't see much change to the Judgement Window. At best we can offer damage comparable to the strongest specs/classes and make the Judgement window less annoying as possible. That's what we should continue to ask for at this point for the next three months because if they are insistent on this stupid Judgement Window nonsense, might as well make it less annoying.

[Ulthane]

There are some things that have been asked for in significant numbers and Blizzard have responded.

People asked for procs, consecration and the removal of talents that just buff the damage of baseline abilities. Can't blame Blizzard for implementing any of these because many Rets undeniably asked for them.

True, just didn't expect consecration as a talent or FV to just buff damage flat lol

- - - Updated - - -

I don't hate Consecration, but I wish the glyphs still existed to let you target it/carry it with you. The removal of those options sucks. They added a proc back on Divine Purpose, but in reality Divine Purpose no longer works as well as in Live because of Judgment.

I think they've done a good number of things they've asked, and a lot of things are looking good. It's the things we didn't ask for (changes from Live) that in some cases suck, particularly the Judgment window. I'm not personally a fan because it conflicts with the Holy Power model, in my opinion.

Also as far as people go with Divine Purpose, I always thought it should have a RPPM system where the longer time goes by, the more chance it has to proc. Results in a much more normal instance of procs with still chances for chain procs, albeit lower chances.

Truth on that.

[Deleted]

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back DP procs.
Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?

Theoretically you can have a ten thousands worth of back to back critical strikes on high crit classes such as roujes and durids.Is it possible? yes.
Will it happen any time soon? Should your dps be balanced around such possibility?
Why they are not ablanced arouns such possibility?

You're exagerating. In mathematical terms you could have a miniscule chance to get infinite, but in practical terms you can't. Your probability to get another proc after getting the first drops, and it keeps dropping with each use. With the pass of time the number of procs will go towards the proc chance.
The DPS can be balanced about it because it is an average. This means that sometimes you can be godlike and others not so godlike. The numer of times is the percentage of the proc. I think the logic you describe comes from the fact that when you feel that godlike feeling and then don't the next time is you feeling like you got short changed. But, in fact that is it working as intended. Without it, you simply won't get that awesome godlike feeling at all, and obviously it wouldn't be balanced if you felt godlike everytime.

- - - Updated - - -

I've had enough.
I'm levelling Fury warrior and Frost DK, just in case.
I've stayed Ret for 6 or so years . I literally had 1 character on my account.
But enough is enough.

But what's more likely is I will stray away from this shithole of a game finally.
It just gets worse and worse.
Devs are getting incredibly lazy.
This is not the World of Warcraft I knew and loved any longer.

If you are worried about PvP. Things are apparantly not as bad as they seem.

If your worry is the new play style beeing shoved down our throats as if there was something wrong with the previous one, then i agree.

[Snegovik]

You're exagerating. In mathematical terms you could have a miniscule chance to get infinite, but in practical terms you can't. Your probability to get another proc after getting the first drops, and it keeps dropping with each use. With the pass of time the number of procs will go towards the proc chance.
The DPS can be balanced about it because it is an average. This means that sometimes you can be godlike and others not so godlike. The numer of times is the percentage of the proc. I think the logic you describe comes from the fact that when you feel that godlike feeling and then don't the next time is you feeling like you got short changed. But, in fact that is it working as intended. Without it, you simply won't get that awesome godlike feeling at all, and obviously it wouldn't be balanced if you felt godlike everytime.

- - - Updated - - -



If you are worried about PvP. Things are apparantly not as bad as they seem.

If your worry is the new play style beeing shoved down our throats as if there was something wrong with the previous one, then i agree.

PvP is too early to say, because there is no proper pvp other than duels and pve rotation in 2s/3s. Hell on live i can beat 99% of my duels, yet i quit rated pvp this season because Ret in such a dire position. Also do you remember WOD s1, Rets were in a good state off the start, then Blizzard felt like we deserved 4 nerfs each week in a row within 1st month. When it comes to Ret's PvP, there is no way to accurately judge its state until at least 3 month into the active season.

My prediction Ret will never be an alpha dog in rated PvP, the closest we ever got to being among "big boys" was Wrath.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You're exagerating. In mathematical terms you could have a miniscule chance to get infinite, but in practical terms you can't. Your probability to get another proc after getting the first drops, and it keeps dropping with each use. With the pass of time the number of procs will go towards the proc chance.
The DPS can be balanced about it because it is an average. This means that sometimes you can be godlike and others not so godlike. The numer of times is the percentage of the proc. I think the logic you describe comes from the fact that when you feel that godlike feeling and then don't the next time is you feeling like you got short changed. But, in fact that is it working as intended. Without it, you simply won't get that awesome godlike feeling at all, and obviously it wouldn't be balanced if you felt godlike everytime.

- - - Updated - - -



If you are worried about PvP. Things are apparantly not as bad as they seem.

If your worry is the new play style beeing shoved down our throats as if there was something wrong with the previous one, then i agree.

Yes I am exaggerating, but only just so very slightly.

Yes, I am worried about about our PvP, for as long as our mobility can be summed as "press W hard", there is NO Ret pvp.
Yes, I am slightly disgusted, irritated and generally fething mad with carbon copy of arms mastery.
Being unable to switch GBlessings according to our needs and situation at hand is beyond retarded.
Dwindled toolkit is disheartening. Having no selfhealing besides hardcasted FoLs is cringeworthy.
Having SoV spellstealable and dispellable is pure lol.
I could go on. But I won't as there's no point - in your heart you already know it to be true.

[Teleros]

Which questions? I've asked several questions

Yeah the JV one, plus I was wondering about stats, ratings etc.

= + =

And what if a certain spec of a certain class is built entirely around the idea of blowing people up with chains of procs and crits?

I'd go back to the drawing board.

Bad design is bad, so trying to make it work is silly at best.

Now, if I have to work with what I've got, then:

1. Make a bot to shadow-ban everyone on the forums who complains about Ret being OP in PvP.
2. Make sure the proc chains etc really can blow people up.
3. ???
4. Profit.

= + =

My prediction Ret will never be an alpha dog in rated PvP, the closest we ever got to being among "big boys" was Wrath.

Same.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It would be very amusing if Blizzard did a 180 on the Judgement part(I don't see it happening) and we reverted back to WoD design but it won't happen. Like I said, best to hope they make the Judgement window as least annoying as possible.



Random info

What's the cooldowns on Judgement and CS?

Talent calculator for Legion doesn't seem to show it >.>

[Taeldorian]

I've had enough.
I'm levelling Fury warrior and Frost DK, just in case.
I've stayed Ret for 6 or so years . I literally had 1 character on my account.
But enough is enough.

I feel you man, I do, but I feel inclined to play the class that I got CMs on (only got it on hunter and shaman aside from paladin) and I've also played ret/prot for as long as I've been around, which was late BC. Other classes have the same shitty ride we do at times, I tried playing a different class in WoD just to feel refreshed and went to fury warrior. Holy shit never again. I love our class, and ret sometimes gets shafted but so do other classes/specs, we aren't the only one which makes it easier to stay. I'm assuming somewhere along the line they'll listen to our feedback about judgement not working with our resource, if they don't listen then the data they get from rets in PvE (actual raw data) will allow them to change things within the first tier.

And what if a certain spec of a certain class is built entirely around the idea of blowing people up with chains of procs and crits?
What if said spec has little else to offer to his comp besides burst as he lacks cc, Ms effect or any debuff of sorts, any semblance of mobility, selfhealing tied to hardcasts while having no way to speed casts up, literally nothing to defend himself besides good old gimmicky bubble of immunity.
How would you balance that?

By reducing the chance of the proc over time. Meaning if it procs twice it's reduced by x amount, procs 3 times reduced again, etc. Like an internal system (somewhat relative to RPPM) that would reduce the proc chance over time if chain procs are a big part of the rotation. This would take a bit of math from the devs to map out, they'd have to make sure the reduced proc chance is just perfect so it doesn't hinder the burst that this said spec would have, but it keeps it from going out of control. Not saying this would work, just spit balling ideas. Having a spec based around procs is ridiculous anyway, just like fury warrior being based around one ability critting (infinitely better than being based around procs though) to continue their rotation.

[Reghame]

someone made a booboo on the next build. Ret wings is now a 20 second cooldown. no proper testing for us it seems

[TomatoBisque]

Nah that's clearly intended

[Sandraudiga]

New talent changes giving Wings and SW a 20 second cooldown rather than a 2 minute cooldown? Cooldown and base duration the same?

Has be be a typo, or a good example of them not know wtf they are doing given artifact traits extend the duration longer than the cooldown. Could keep 15 stacks of damage/haste up the entire fight.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It seems to be legit. I have no idea why but ti is what it is. More builds are to come. We shall see what happens.