[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Daralii]

It's because TV is based on weapon damage and JV is based on attack power. As such, the relative values will vary depending on the item level of your weapon compared to the rest of your gear. For example, my level 109 has 802 weapon but 775 average item level. This meant that, last build before the TV nerfs, JV did only slightly more damage on an unstunned mob. As my gear will have neared in value to the weapon (which will happen at some point), JV would have pulled ahead again.

Guess that means we know what's getting nerfed next build. :^)

[Deleted]

Guess that means we know what's getting nerfed next build. :^)

There's no need to. TV is still more damage per holy power spent on an unstunned mob, just JV is more overall damage so good to use with DP procs. Mind you, there was no need for those TV nerfs either. I can't comment on Divine Storm because I have limited opportunities to compare that, but I was hardly streaking ahead of others in dungeons before these changes.

[Sandraudiga]

It's a bit shit that one of our gold dragon abilities is worse than some of the non dragon traits. Our Divine Storm trait is an extra 15% damage, whereas echo is only 10%.

Yes its 1 point vs 3 points, but haven't seen such a lame duck of a golden dragon on any of the other artifacts I've looked at.

[Snegovik]

Or go holy like you're supposed to...

If i would gain 1 rating for every time i hear that when trying to join an RBG grp, id be 3kcr+ by now...

[Demsi]

So guys what has NOT been talked about in any changes is the consistent alternations to JV.

So here is the kicker... this is my damage vs TV on the 110 max everything

-JV: 173,738
-TV (With FV): 127,458

Last patch JV was SIGNIFICANTLY lower in damage than TV on all accounts. Now it hits harder then fully buffed TV.

In addition, if you decided you wanted to main use JV you could take Consecration or ES.

This means you are throwing an added ES: 351,820 or 87,966 over x seconds.

JV + Judge + ES burst OR less Holy Power stress and JV + Consecration dot.

This means 173,738 + 87,966 consistent or add in the ES.

Now I get it, this is tooltip but its what im seeing when I hit stuff. Stuff is getting chunked with JV constantly, and ffs the Echo nerf was bad to meaning that since its physical added damage its near useless.
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What does this mean? They keep tinkering with JV numbers A TON and never actually makes it into the datamine/build notes. But its being tinkered with, im noticing the Consecration + JV is doing good, Consecration acting as filler damage.

Point: It's all wacked.

are those numbers with or without judge debuff?

[Sandraudiga]

There's no need to. TV is still more damage per holy power spent on an unstunned mob, just JV is more overall damage so good to use with DP procs. Mind you, there was no need for those TV nerfs either. I can't comment on Divine Storm because I have limited opportunities to compare that, but I was hardly streaking ahead of others in dungeons before these changes.

Not in beta, so I can't comment from personal experience. That being said I've seen maybe 20-25 dungeons on various streams that had a ret paladin and depending on which class the tank was playing the ret was either below the tank or above the tank but still a fair bit below the other dps.

The aoe nerf is no doubt a knee jerk reaction to cutting eye beam and blade storm by half. Not too sure why eye beam was nerfed so heavily, most of the aoe damage break downs I saw put blade dance or whatever as more damage done than eye beam by a decent margin. Perhaps because of the burst aoe more than aoe in general. Either way I don't think DS really needed nerfing, but without seeing more dungeon runs and damage break downs I am only going with my gut.

[Deleted]

Not in beta, so I can't comment from personal experience. That being said I've seen maybe 20-25 dungeons on various streams that had a ret paladin and depending on which class the tank was playing the ret was either below the tank or above the tank but still a fair bit below the other dps.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tdnmAwZMFhqC4Tyj#

Though I was hardly clear ahead but at least competitive. Of course, it's hard to tell because there are variants like the accuracy of the scaling and how advanced different people's artefact is. Demon hunters worse off because they don't even get their full talents until they've capped.

[Ulthane]

@Thete you are 100% right, flat out. Won't argue at all. It's just mind boggling thats all <.<

[Aeluron Lightsong]

There is a gif I'd love to post but I don't want mods to get mad. >.>

[Ulthane]

are those numbers with or without judge debuff?

oh this is without Judgment on the target at all.

[Taeldorian]

Have seen several dungeon runs with rets in them, and no their damage wasn't high enough to warrant the nerfs. Never saw one at the top, and more often saw them last of the dps.

The nerfs to other classes, like the massive nerfs to bladestorm and eye beam might justify the aoe nerfbat that hit us though.

Yeah, they got pretty giant nerfs as well.

[Sandraudiga]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/tdnmAwZMFhqC4Tyj#

Though I was hardly clear ahead but at least competitive. Of course, it's hard to tell because there are variants like the accuracy of the scaling and how advanced different people's artefact is. Demon hunters worse off because they don't even get their full talents until they've capped.

I was specifically talking about aoe pulls, which for the most part means a trash pack or two to show the relative difference in the aoe damage of say a warrior or a demon hunter versus a ret paladin. Sadly your log doesn't include those, and while it does show that we are indeed competitive that is mostly single target damage.

Overall I don't think ret is weak by any means, though I hate the playstyle of the mastery driven judgement window as well as the greater blessings. Still a fair bit of tuning to do of course so I won't comment too much, but my pessimism prevents me from hoping for anything but low to middle of the pack.

[Snegovik]

Talking about Nerfs, prot didnt get any large/unexpected nerfs BUT on the bright side Righteous Shield reduced cd on wings by 3 sec every time its used, personally its pretty nice almost evens out other nerfs, so honestly PvP wise prot is a way to go now, not the Ret.

[Deleted]

Overall I don't think ret is weak by any means, though I hate the playstyle of the mastery driven judgement window as well as the greater blessings. Still a fair bit of tuning to do of course so I won't comment too much, but my pessimism prevents me from hoping for anything but low to middle of the pack.

I think it is weak. I don't doubt that, when this goes live, our damage will measure up to everyone else in general terms. But the lack of mobility options is going to stuff us looking at many of the fights on offer. Tuning always seems to be based around static fights which are not realistic.

[Reghame]

ulthane if you are showing the 110 numbers based on the PVP characters, let it be noted that the PVP preset chars have a 750 baseline weapon, and their gear is more than 60+ilevels higher than the weapon. TV still does more damage per HP (and possibly still by cast) with some of your artifact traits and equal gear to weapon ratio.

[Sandraudiga]

I think it is weak. I don't doubt that, when this goes live, our damage will measure up to everyone else in general terms. But the lack of mobility options is going to stuff us looking at many of the fights on offer. Tuning always seems to be based around static fights which are not realistic.

Oh, no doubt that overall Ret is going to be in a bad spot, but that isn't really new. The times when we've been in a bad spot vastly outnumber the times when we in a good one. We seem to change more than any other class at times, and too often we've had to be balanced with very power set bonuses not to fall more and more behind. I can't imagine having a raid spot atm if I only had one charge of wings for instance.

[Anardel]

Why? I mean, why?

[Snegovik]

Why? I mean, why?

Blizzard wants us go Prot, just look Devs gave it all the tools Rets asked for :Range silence, charge, short cd on holy pony, survival, decent grp utility and more: Knock Backs ( in RBGs Eots/AB, we can eliminate an enemy healer within 1st 5 sec of the fight, this is OP!)

[Deleted]

I was specifically talking about aoe pulls, which for the most part means a trash pack or two to show the relative difference in the aoe damage of say a warrior or a demon hunter versus a ret paladin. Sadly your log doesn't include those, and while it does show that we are indeed competitive that is mostly single target damage.

Re-uploaded with trash if you want to pick through it. Not sure what it will be like this build - worth noting that I go for a balanced talent choice given that we can't change them and other specs have had AoE nerfed this build too.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hmC1yc86gfZ2PKvN

[Lunavale]

Blizzard wants us go Prot, just look Devs gave it all the tools Rets asked for :Range silence, charge, short cd on holy pony, survival, decent grp utility and more: Knock Backs ( in RBGs Eots/AB, we can eliminate an enemy healer within 1st 5 sec of the fight, this is OP!)

Not to mention Prot got blessing of spellwarding, which was taken from a suggestion by the Ret community, name and everything. And Prot STILL has retribution aura, like what the actual fuck?