[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Look at it positively. At least Sneg doesn´t have to gnaw on his hat (I would have suggested liberal amounts of Ketchup). And to you Reg I would ask you to stop being so positive about Blizzard. Storm is out of town so you don´t have to be his counterweight.

Also I took a look at some arms vids including finalboss pass 1&2 (not sure he is 100% correct on anything) and I have to say compared to ret the playstyle looks much more polished and they do have real playstyle choices in the talent tree. I don´t understand how the arms guys can complain that much. I would kill a 100 gnomes and desecrate their cadavers for a play style that is not as dull as our current iteration.
Hell I even considered switching main for a second there... and yes I still try to atone for this sin.

[Teleros]

Summary of changes this build

Better hope next build sees the big changes for Reg's sake...

= + =

I know there has been a lot of dissent regarding Ret over the Beta test, and that a lot of people are not very happy about where we're at. Myself included, with a few things. On the other hand, a lot has improved since the Alpha launched. The spec is far better off now than it was months ago. We've come along way, and our feedback has played a crucial role in that. That said, we're long past the point where mechanics may still be shuffled. The basics of the class are pretty much set in stone, despite what Blizzard may say. So the constant banter of 'Judgment doesn't work' (it does) or 'or Mobility is bad' won't go anywhere. You're probably (with 99.99% certainty) wasting your breath.

Agreed, though I'm not sure we should let them forget that just yet.

However, the feedback that will still likely will sway them will be found in breakdowns and comparison between the myriad of variables we are now presented with. One such discrepancy, or problem as i see it, is found on the level 60 tier. WE have two talents, Blade of Wrath and Virtue's Blade that do more or less the same thing.

Agreed.

Seal of Command (passive):
- Replaces Blade of Justice
- Provides all attacks a chance to deal 150% weapon damage as Holy to the primary target, 75% to nearby targets.
- Doesn't proc at 5 Holy Power.
- Generates 1 Holy Power
- RPPM.

Leaving aside the damage numbers for now... this is going to result in an odd rotation if there's no BoJ to use. You'll be down to a rotation that consists of just CS, J, and TV*.

This kind of thing works for Havoc DHs, because Demon's Bite has no cooldown/charges, but it's definitely going to feel weird as Ret to have so few buttons to push. I think I would prefer it to either not replace BoJ, or I'd want to see the CD/charges on Crusader Strike removed (even if it means your SoC idea no longer generates HP, for balancing purposes). Something like:

Crusader Strike: Strikes the target for 160% physical damage & generates 1 Holy Power. Melee range, no CD, no charges.
Fires of Justice: No CD reduction.
Zeal: No charges/CD.
Seal of Command: Provides all attacks a chance to deal 150% Holy damage to the target, and 75% Holy damage to nearby [8yd] targets. Cannot occur if you have 5 Holy Power. Generates 1 Holy Power [if not OP]. Replaces Blade of Justice.

Without Seal of Command, you'd effectively play just like you normally do in Legion, because I'm not sure the charge/CD has ever been a huge limitation for Ret (it's not seemed that way in videos etc, but maybe that's just Fires of Justice making the CD so short). Sure there'd be "no gaps" as opposed to "occasional gaps" (no harm in using CS at 5HP whilst waiting for Judgement, for example), but I think most players here are happy when filling their GCDs with abilities.

With Seal of Command, you basically spend your days hitting CS outside of the Judgement window, which is boring but probably preferable to pushing nothing because you need to monitor CS charges etc. The only other issue to my mind is pooling HP and the Judgement window: let's say an average of 3 GCDs for Crusader Strike to generate 5HP with a couple of SoC procs, then wait for Judgement. Using your numbers, that's 300% weapon damage as Holy from Seal of Command every 12secs (before haste)** - once you cast the first TV/ES/DS then you can start getting SoC procs again.

That may be too strong given current damage numbers etc, but to be honest I'd much rather have buttons to push regularly than feel either (a) forced into Fires of Justice (to push buttons) or forced to wait for a 4.5sec Zeal/CS cooldown to finish so I don't run out of charges later.

*Maybe ES or DS instead of the occasional TV, but a 3-button rotation for a cooldown-based class... uhm.

**Though you can then just keep hitting CS until Judgement is ready, because it's basically free damage.

[siccora]

what about judgement as a buff on that can stack up to XYZ (maybe to 4 stacks) and one stack is consumed when u use a holy power damage finisher? you can play a more fluid way or ramp up when you know there will be a burst phase in a fight? and i really like the idea of not having a CD on CS. sounds more like the new enhancer. just one ability to spam.

[Deleted]

After reading that Solsacra post and people agreeing with it and saying its a good idea... im just baffled by this thread and people playing ret. Seems like all hope is lost.
Ive wrote a giant post/rant about just how bad ret really is at the moment, but gave up on it... as this seems like some twilight zone to me and we are actually not playing same beta and same ret.

I thought ret was terrible before when all i did was see abilities and gave it a bit of thought... but after playing it for a while now, i think its even worse... much much worse. No choices with talents, no synergy at all, most talents are flat out terrible, artifact traits(big ones) that are just horrible, a travesty even (other than two "ashes", main artifact ability and trait that modifies it), insanely bad mastery/judgement mechanic and most of all... unbelievably bad core set of tools and 0 utility. Someone mentioned Arms and why its 100000 times better and i agree, as their stuff works together well, but for us almost every part of spec is clashing and stepping on each-others toes. And somehow idea that makes it much worse is awesome?

But somehow here its all "almost there" or "close" and good ideas that i would classify as silly(at best) and all that seems like another deja-vu of last expansion beta and my arguments with anaxie and other "prominent" rets... only for them to start complaining 3 months after it went live when they finally realized how mechanics and core sucked...

[Silvus]

After reading that Solsacra post and people agreeing with it and saying its a good idea... im just baffled by this thread and people playing ret. Seems like all hope is lost.
Ive wrote a giant post/rant about just how bad ret really is at the moment, but gave up on it... as this seems like some twilight zone to me and we are actually not playing same beta and same ret.

I thought ret was terrible before when all i did was see abilities and gave it a bit of thought... but after playing it for a while now, i think its even worse... much much worse. No choices with talents, no synergy at all, most talents are flat out terrible, artifact traits(big ones) that are just horrible, a travesty even (other than two "ashes", main artifact ability and trait that modifies it), insanely bad mastery/judgement mechanic and most of all... unbelievably bad core set of tools and 0 utility. Someone mentioned Arms and why its 100000 times better and i agree, as their stuff works together well, but for us almost every part of spec is clashing and stepping on each-others toes.

But somehow here its all "almost there" or "close" and good ideas that i would classify as silly(at best) and all that seems like another deja-vu of last expansion beta and my arguments with anaxie and other "prominent" rets... only for them to start complaining 3 months after it went live when they finally realized how mechanics and core sucked...

Cant link Thete's youtube movie, yet I would advice to watch his recent movie called : WoW Community Forum: Good and bad Beta Feedback.

Clearly we all have our opinion about the current Retribution design. And im not quite happy myself, yet please provide something more, then what you just posted. Or just post nothing at all, and leave it to people who are willing to provide in depth detail about the spec.

[Deleted]

Look at it positively. At least Sneg doesn´t have to gnaw on his hat (I would have suggested liberal amounts of Ketchup). And to you Reg I would ask you to stop being so positive about Blizzard. Storm is out of town so you don´t have to be his counterweight.

Also I took a look at some arms vids including finalboss pass 1&2 (not sure he is 100% correct on anything) and I have to say compared to ret the playstyle looks much more polished and they do have real playstyle choices in the talent tree. I don´t understand how the arms guys can complain that much. I would kill a 100 gnomes and desecrate their cadavers for a play style that is not as dull as our current iteration.
Hell I even considered switching main for a second there... and yes I still try to atone for this sin.

Yup! I've been saying that for quite a while now. Warriors know what they want. They got everyone to feel sorry for them when they got lots of great choices and 2 play styles. I wish Ret players were more like warrior players (not saying so much the regular ones here). The talk of support class just destroys this spec. Until we can be a unified voice that has our damage dealing capabilities as its highest priority, we will keep getting short changed with heals and equalities.

You know what they did with EDS+FV... yeah... wen't straight to the fury warriors. We didn't want procs afterall right? That is why i'm aimed to changed to Warrior in Legion. Ret is gonna be dreadful, and i can only imagine that things staying as they are, Ret players will be liabilities to their raids. I'm yet to see a point where Ret's are supposed to excel to make up for this madness.

I've been thinking about maining warrior and get a paladin t6 transmog for him. Not sure if its possible to get a whole look alike set, but it would be awesome. Ret at heart, even if blizz guts it.

[Ashelorh]

Kind of off topic, but are you still going to theorycraft ret into legion, solsacra?

[Deleted]

Cant link Thete's youtube movie, yet I would advice to watch his recent movie called : WoW Community Forum: Good and bad Beta Feedback.

Clearly we all have our opinion about the current Retribution design. And im not quite happy myself, yet please provide something more, then what you just posted. Or just post nothing at all, and leave it to people who are willing to provide in depth detail about the spec.

My post is in line what this thread is all about, throwing ideas and giving feedback on them and discussion at hand. I did just that. Same as people giving feedback to posts on official forum when those poor misinformed people posted crap.
And 90% of posts here dont provide any in depth detail about the spec, they just throw ideas around and discuss about them.
My feedback is that the idea is trash and that im baffled that people think its good because its terrible, and how those saying ret is "almost" there are unbelievable to me because only thing that ret is "almost there" to is trash and i listed what is wrong with the spec and why. If thats not better feedback than: "Going to see if this HAS NOT been posted on the Beta forums. THIS IS BRILLIANT DO WANT"... then guess im done here.

[Deleted]

I've been thinking about maining warrior and get a paladin t6 transmog for him. Not sure if its possible to get a whole look alike set, but it would be awesome. Ret at heart, even if blizz guts it.

You won´t need to with the wardrobe system as long as you have it on your Paladin. So even less effort for you.

[Lumineus]

Only the boots, belt, and helmet exist as cross-class xmogs.

[Deleted]

So many new things there i think it will be quite difficult for theorycrafters to test and create a solid spec guide. it seems that it will go by a boss to boss encounter and maybe vary according to a raid's combo. To me it seems quite a huge makeover to the playstyle in a way that we will have to heavily introduce a healing-like playstyle on top of a melee one to be able to compete (u kno that weird minigame healers play with at the bottom of their screen mouseovering spells on small boxes according to buffs/debuffs etc) by efficiently placing blessings in a timely manner with minor cd clushing etc.
I mean does the use and twisting of blessings in a raid environment justify the loss of keys and abilities and downtime ?
Is this true and how does a melee class feel about it?
PvP and small groups is another story and i cannot even imagine how bad/good it will be...

[Calgar2013]

I would just like to preface this by saying that I have had no access to Alpha or Beta and that I am just a sucker for Retribution ������

Mastery

Trial By Fire

Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous, Blade of Justice, Final Verdict, Divine Storm, Execution Sentence and Consecration apply Trial By Fire to the target(s), causing x% of damage to be dealt additionally as Righteous (Holy,Fire) damage over y seconds.

Judgment's damage is also increased by z% and consumes Trial By Fire's damage to deal increased damage as Righteous damage.

Reasons: ...Because reasons.

In all seriousness I feel this allows the feel Hand of Light to permeate the spec whilst still making Judgment the lynchpin for Ret's mastery. I also dislike seeing our Censure go away completely come Legion and having Trial By Fire be a DoT and applied to all targets within 12 yards of the Paladin lets me pretend that Blizz finally allowed us to spread Censure.


**Greater Judgment talent changed to Mass Judgment which allows Judgement to consume all instances of* Trial By Fire in a 12 yard radius of the Paladin.**

Movement.

Bake Long Arm of the Law into Blade of Justice and call it Pursuit of Justice:

*insert Blade of Justice tooltip*

Blade of Justice marks the target for imminent judgment by the Paladin, granting the Paladin the Pursuit of Justice which increases movement speed by 35% for 3 seconds.

Just a couple of things I thought of while I was working today.
I'd love to know what you all think.
Damage % and time can all be spitballed by the more math inclined, I just didn't want to put up numbers without Beta knowledge, that's all.

No more Hammer of Fk-Your Face makes me emo ������

[Deleted]

You won´t need to with the wardrobe system as long as you have it on your Paladin. So even less effort for you.

Oh? Its account wide is it? Marvelous! Thats that sorted then. ^^

[Deleted]

So many new things there i think it will be quite difficult for theorycrafters to test and create a solid spec guide. it seems that it will go by a boss to boss encounter and maybe vary according to a raid's combo. To me it seems quite a huge makeover to the playstyle in a way that we will have to heavily introduce a healing-like playstyle on top of a melee one to be able to compete (u kno that weird minigame healers play with at the bottom of their screen mouseovering spells on small boxes according to buffs/debuffs etc) by efficiently placing blessings in a timely manner with minor cd clushing etc.
I mean does the use and twisting of blessings in a raid environment justify the loss of keys and abilities and downtime ?
Is this true and how does a melee class feel about it?
PvP and small groups is another story and i cannot even imagine how bad/good it will be...

Didn't they lock blessings to out of combat casting only?

[Lumineus]

Oh? Its account wide is it? Marvelous! Thats that sorted then. ^^

It is, but the class, race, faction restrictions on items still apply.

[Deleted]

Seems 'TO THE GROUND' is going to become a thing again, but for Prot this time. Huge nerfs every patch.

Just took a very substantial hit to both damage and survival. Harsh, especially after the already large nerf to warrior of light. It's not like Prot was the only tank performing well.....why are the others avoiding such a hefty punishment.

God it's really looking like I won't have a decent spec to play by the time live hits.

[Solsacra]

With Seal of Command, you basically spend your days hitting CS outside of the Judgement window, which is boring but probably preferable to pushing nothing because you need to monitor CS charges etc. The only other issue to my mind is pooling HP and the Judgement window: let's say an average of 3 GCDs for Crusader Strike to generate 5HP with a couple of SoC procs, then wait for Judgement. Using your numbers, that's 300% weapon damage as Holy from Seal of Command every 12secs (before haste)** - once you cast the first TV/ES/DS then you can start getting SoC procs again.

That may be too strong given current damage numbers etc, but to be honest I'd much rather have buttons to push regularly than feel either (a) forced into Fires of Justice (to push buttons) or forced to wait for a 4.5sec Zeal/CS cooldown to finish so I don't run out of charges later.

Spending your days hitting five less buttons a minute in favor of a proc that occurs at least twice as often is kind of the point. There are plenty of options to speed up the rotation in other areas such as taking - Consecration, The Fires of Justice, Divine Hammer, etc. Having an option that slows the rotation down, and also simultaneously delivering on old aspects that players miss can't be a bad thing. It's merely a matter of preference.

The point of my post was not to uproot and run away with what has been established, it merely seeks to reexamine a particular aspect of the spec. In this case, two talents, that is provide no meaningful change to our gameplay.

[Ulthane]

Spending your days hitting five less buttons a minute in favor of a proc that occurs at least twice as often is kind of the point. There are plenty of options to speed up the rotation in other areas such as taking - Consecration, The Fires of Justice, Divine Hammer, etc. Having an option that slows the rotation down, and also simultaneously delivering on old aspects that players miss can't be a bad thing. It's merely a matter of preference.

I see it as a playstyle choice in that row.

-BoJ semi ranged
-DH aoe faster CD
-SoC no extra button just 100% melee, extra damage etc.

So in its own way the flavor is there and since its melee restricted it wont be op. So preference while making Virtues Blade interesting.

Also i apologize if posting that wasnt tactful but that concept is amazing in of itself for that row.

[Teleros]

Spending your days hitting five less buttons a minute in favor of a proc that occurs at least twice as often is kind of the point.

Yeah fair enough, but I felt that looking into the consequences re the rotation was important. In general, the more playstyles a spec can incorporate well, the better.

There are plenty of options to speed up the rotation in other areas such as taking - Consecration, The Fires of Justice, Divine Hammer, etc.

Yes, but I can't see Consecration or Divine Hammer being particularly valuable without some buffs, especially given the awkwardness in changing talents etc.

[Deleted]

It is, but the class, race, faction restrictions on items still apply.

Thats too bad. Oh well... i'm sure i will come up with something.