[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Teleros]

cosecrate doesn't really compete with execution sentence and final verdict...does it?

In principle you can get about 2x Consecrations off for every Execution Sentence, so 810% AP on 2+ mobs means it's superior DPS (before Judgement debuff at least, but then just add a 3rd mob for Consecration etc). It also doesn't consume HP. On the other hand, you require 9 seconds to deal all that damage, which isn't great when standard operating procedure is to blow everything up ASAP.

[Biral Sunherald]

In principle you can get about 2x Consecrations off for every Execution Sentence, so 810% AP on 2+ mobs means it's superior DPS (before Judgement debuff at least, but then just add a 3rd mob for Consecration etc). It also doesn't consume HP. On the other hand, you require 9 seconds to deal all that damage, which isn't great when standard operating procedure is to blow everything up ASAP.

Also: Templar's Verdict is quite a hefty amount of your single-target damage (upwards of 40% of your DPS). So if single-target throughput is required for a boss (read: every dungeon boss encounter in Legion so far), you'd best spec Final Verdict.

[Teleros]

Also: Templar's Verdict is quite a hefty amount of your single-target damage (upwards of 40% of your DPS). So if single-target throughput is required for a boss (read: every dungeon boss encounter in Legion so far), you'd best spec Final Verdict.

Well for pure single-target DPS I think Execution Sentence will be the winner if you can play well, but generally bosses have often had adds to cleave down etc, so I'm not sure you'd lose much by keeping Final Verdict.

[Ulthane]

Have you checked Judgment? It actually has a pretty wide cleave radius, unlike Zeal. I've actually accidentally pulled a few things because of that.

I have, i was putting the impression of 10 yard range.

All cleaves for us should follow the 10 yard range.
-Zeal: 10 yard cleave
-Judgment: 10 yards from target

And you could mix it up where Greater Judgment would increase that or Judgment everything aroud you or something

[Morally Grey Storm]

I have, i was putting the impression of 10 yard range.

All cleaves for us should follow the 10 yard range.
-Zeal: 10 yard cleave
-Judgment: 10 yards from target

And you could mix it up where Greater Judgment would increase that or Judgment everything aroud you or something

Or Judgement could put the buff on us, and this artificial impairment wouldn't exist to begin with?
Or am I out of my mind with such high demands?

[Deleted]

Ironically, making the sensible change to allow for a brief period of talent switching at the start of a dungeon might (pun intended) be a pain for us. I can imagine, everyone changes talents, we can't apply greater blessings because they'll get wiped with every talent change. The tank is itching to go, the last person makes their talent change and stuff gets pulled. We still can't apply greater blessings because now we're in combat.

At least it should be ok in the mythic dungeons.

[istroxpro]

Fear not! There will be no spot for Ret in any raid group. Problem solved.

[-Rufio-]

so having not played the beta or really researching anything.

Is there a best order for upgrading our ashbringer? Which path do you take first? Try to get to the final talents asap or what?

I'm looking at the wowhead calculator and im not even sure where you start. Is wake of ashes the first point you put into ashbringer?

Do you max out each dot before moving on? Whats looking like the best path to take?

http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-calc#AmBAICA

wake of ashes 1/1
blade of light 1/1
deliver the justice or righteous blade? 3/3

trying to go for ashes to ashes first?

and which sockets (relics) are we going to try to get first? even if its not farmable, what are we looking to find thats best?

has anyone mapped out whats best to go for first?

[Deleted]

Just logged into PTR and thought to myself "Ret can't really be that bad, can it? I'll give it a try, I'm sure I can learn to love it enough for an alt spec at least?"

Random name generator named my Pally "Tard".

FU blizz. FU.

[DrMcNinja]

Logged on the PTR after a half year absence from WoW. Wasn't impressed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Logged on the PTR after a half year absence from WoW. Wasn't impressed.

I mean if you focused on just Paladin gameplay sure

[Chaosinciter]

so having not played the beta or really researching anything.

Is there a best order for upgrading our ashbringer? Which path do you take first? Try to get to the final talents asap or what?

I'm looking at the wowhead calculator and im not even sure where you start. Is wake of ashes the first point you put into ashbringer?

Do you max out each dot before moving on? Whats looking like the best path to take?

http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-calc#AmBAICA

wake of ashes 1/1
blade of light 1/1
deliver the justice or righteous blade? 3/3

trying to go for ashes to ashes first?

and which sockets (relics) are we going to try to get first? even if its not farmable, what are we looking to find thats best?

has anyone mapped out whats best to go for first?

Yes you have to max out each trait before being able to move onto the next and yes Wake of Ashes is the start point. The biggest (least imo) trait you can get is Ashes to Ashes after that it's kind of down to preference, but I personally will be going down Deliver the Justice > Sharpened Edge > Wrath of the Ashbringer > Highlord's Judgment > Embrace the Light > Divine Tempest > Deflection > Echo of the Highlord > Healing Storm > Might of the Templar (could make that earlier on but not sure entirely on how worth 6% is even if it's our largest contributor in ST compared to the other traits) > Endless Resolve

As far as the relics go my best guess is the ones to aim for are the ones that give points to Wrath of Ashbringer (talking when we have a maxed artifact of course otherwise while like leveling i'm not sure how the system works so probably just traits that you have unlocked in that case) since i would imagine an additional 2.5 seconds per rank may outweigh the damage gain through other traits specially if we actually end up using Crusade (probably not though)

[Biral Sunherald]

so having not played the beta or really researching anything.

Is there a best order for upgrading our ashbringer? Which path do you take first? Try to get to the final talents asap or what?

I'm looking at the wowhead calculator and im not even sure where you start. Is wake of ashes the first point you put into ashbringer?

Do you max out each dot before moving on? Whats looking like the best path to take?

http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-calc#AmBAICA

wake of ashes 1/1
blade of light 1/1
deliver the justice or righteous blade? 3/3

trying to go for ashes to ashes first?

and which sockets (relics) are we going to try to get first? even if its not farmable, what are we looking to find thats best?

has anyone mapped out whats best to go for first?

Most optimal path for general DPS: Ashes to Ashes, then Divine Tempest, then Echoes.

You do need to max each trait before going onto an adjacent trait, however, so plan accordingly =)

[Deleted]

So... i finally tried the spec on the PTR... and i must admit. I feel a bit angry at the alpha testers for having been way way too lenient on this in the beggining.

This spec is broken. It doesn't flow. Its a complete nightmare to even make anything work with this. And this is all before ES is factored in.

The extra 2 second window hardly does anything at all. You will only be able to get 2 finishers in there unless you are lucky with procs.

Fires of justice is the only way this spec even tries to get playable. Zeal is incredibly and unnaceptably slow. This spec is broken. It has always been broken since alpha, and we should have been clear about that since the start. Now we are looking at this in a nigh unplayable state. To make this work you are gonna have to run multiple Weak aura alerts. Did i mention dead times? There are dead times, completely "random" down times because things simply don't line up ever. You will have dead times during build up, wich sometimes will mean delaying judgement even though its off cooldown, there are dead times in the judgement window if you werent lucky with procs.
This is an absolute and unnaceptable nightmare. The devs have been struck with a severe case of insanity.

After this i went to try warrior fury and arms and wow... complete oppsite. Even the slow arms spec on live now flows constantly without any down time. The tactician proc is actually alot more common than the 10% lead to believe. Having ms charges lets you unload about 3 mortal strikes on every collosus smash window, unlike Ret's abortion judgement window.
Fury is not even worth mentioning. Its almost like playing art. You are constantly keeping the enrage window up through the bloodthirst crits and rampage and filling with raging blows when you are enraged. Both are great fun.
I was going to test DK, but the world server came down. I will test more classes tomorrow.

Needless to say that my decision is now pretty much made. Blizz killed my Ret paladin. I will level him and keep him around for when they come to their sense. But, that wont happen until the next expansion at the earliest. Whoever plans to play this mess... good luck! You are going to need it.

[Celebhil]

From tinkering on the ptr (when I can log on)
the fires of justice should be a baseline again, in particular the proc. It plus the judgement's current duration makes for a reasonable chance at getting 3 TVs in; throw in divine purpose and im goin casino sometimes.- although all the dps seems low. I want to see how it scales with a copy of my main vs the template.

a second thought, consecration or blessed hammer should be baseline and share a CD/ hp gen of blade of wrath; make a baseline aoe rotation if judgement really is meant to be a single target focus. Then cleaving talents can be around modifying our aoe generator. The blade talents need more flavor. (considering knocking away blessed hammer, theres an open slot available: Something like reviving art of war or Sol's seal of command passive)

could someone on the beta suggest to blizzard to spice up the artifact ability a bit? A "breath of fire" attack isn't really consistent with "class fantasy"....when did we become drunken panda monks?

[Anardel]

As my fellows, I tried PTR and give ret a chance. The only word that can define the spec is slow, and by slow I mean FUCKIN' slow. Even with the 8 secs Judge window you can barely manage to use 3 TV if you're somewhat lucky with lag, sometimes I can use 3 in-window sometimes I used the 3rd just after the Judge window's drops.

Btw I want to try it when character copy is allowed, because right now the default ret pally has 2% haste. Maybe haste and artifact fix the spec, but right now is slooooooooooooooow as fuck.

[Geso]

has anyone tested if Prot does more dps than ret yet? I know that currently for pvp prot is 10x better than ret and i'm actually curious if that's true PvE wise.

[Deleted]

So... i finally tried the spec on the PTR... and i must admit. I feel a bit angry at the alpha testers for having been way way too lenient on this in the beggining.

This spec is broken. It doesn't flow. Its a complete nightmare to even make anything work with this. And this is all before ES is factored in.

The extra 2 second window hardly does anything at all. You will only be able to get 2 finishers in there unless you are lucky with procs.

Fires of justice is the only way this spec even tries to get playable. Zeal is incredibly and unnaceptably slow. This spec is broken. It has always been broken since alpha, and we should have been clear about that since the start. Now we are looking at this in a nigh unplayable state. To make this work you are gonna have to run multiple Weak aura alerts. Did i mention dead times? There are dead times, completely "random" down times because things simply don't line up ever. You will have dead times during build up, wich sometimes will mean delaying judgement even though its off cooldown, there are dead times in the judgement window if you werent lucky with procs.
This is an absolute and unnaceptable nightmare. The devs have been struck with a severe case of insanity.

After this i went to try warrior fury and arms and wow... complete oppsite. Even the slow arms spec on live now flows constantly without any down time. The tactician proc is actually alot more common than the 10% lead to believe. Having ms charges lets you unload about 3 mortal strikes on every collosus smash window, unlike Ret's abortion judgement window.
Fury is not even worth mentioning. Its almost like playing art. You are constantly keeping the enrage window up through the bloodthirst crits and rampage and filling with raging blows when you are enraged. Both are great fun.
I was going to test DK, but the world server came down. I will test more classes tomorrow.

Needless to say that my decision is now pretty much made. Blizz killed my Ret paladin. I will level him and keep him around for when they come to their sense. But, that wont happen until the next expansion at the earliest. Whoever plans to play this mess... good luck! You are going to need it.

Some of us tried calling it a pile of crap, but people who couldn't even test it kept saying it'll be alright with 'tweaks' etc etc

If it makes you feel better I repeatedly summited feedback in the alpha that the spec was 'a degenerative mess.' But I guess all that Equality publicity was just louder.

Even if it were viable it's not fun, the spec has been shot in the foot ( and maybe the brain).

[Merrena]

I think my biggest problem right now after getting my hands on the PTR is that there doesn't feel like there's any choice in talents for variation of gameplay aside from going single target to aoe. So many talents feel like they should be baseline (Fires of Justice, Consecration, Divine Steed) and replaced with talents that actually change how the spec plays.

[jackofwind]

has anyone tested if Prot does more dps than ret yet? I know that currently for pvp prot is 10x better than ret and i'm actually curious if that's true PvE wise.

Yeah, sure, prot does more DPS than Ret in PvE and this is totally not a stupid question.