[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Reghame]

those saying divine hammer is a must because its more HP. although the talents HP gen went up, so too did the other two options. in fact, the HP gain by using BoW or VB are still about the same in terms of HP gen between DH and not having DH.

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and greater judge is now incredibly strong since the damage does not go down per bounce at all. hitting 4 targets of which you are more likely to be hitting them with it at max HP is a great boost to our damage. more so over since you can most likely double DS all 4 targets for a nice boost as well. thats a big changer in terms of talent choice.

[Biral Sunherald]

and greater judge is now incredibly strong since the damage does not go down per bounce at all. hitting 4 targets of which you are more likely to be hitting them with it at max HP is a great boost to our damage. more so over since you can most likely double DS all 4 targets for a nice boost as well. thats a big changer in terms of talent choice.

While this is true, it's really only an effective talent for quickly-killed and highly mobile trash. Otherwise, the Cleave damage from Zeal will outshine it for sure. I still don't know if they've fixed problem with its damage component, yet. It used to use a spherical AoE centered on the initial target (radius 8yds, likely) and then bounce to the target cap (4 with the talent), each bounce able to hit another target 8yds from the last. This resulted in a chain problem, where two targets would get damaged, but four would get bounced to and receive the Judgment debuff, each target being 8yds away from the other in a line. Hopefully that's been fixed (and why the damage went up, different targeting/damage script used), but we'd need to test it again.

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??? How does Zealotry not fit the theme of retribution? Not only was it a previous skill, but the word itself refers to fanaticism, of which an entire organization of Paladins are composed of (Scarlet Crusade).

I was talking about the suggestion, not the concept =P

Unless of course you disagree?

I don't disagree that a powerful damage-window does adequately represent our spec; however, I do disagree that a system where one builds HP until max, then is forced into using one or two abilities for 10 seconds (depending on situation) represents Retribution effectively. That's somewhat like Havoc Demon Hunter right now, if they get lucky with their crits (but then, their damage burst duration is gated by that stat, not static like your suggestion - which is not without merit, obviously, but a static window like that feels like it would be uninteresting, especially considering we'd need to rethink how quickly we can max out our resource again to enter into the window). Even Shadow Priests have a variable duration window for their Insanity, based on their skill-use and optimization therein. I just think the static window approach wouldn't work, especially since our options of skill use during that window is limited.

From a gameplay perspective I can see where its an odd responsibility of managing the mechanic, but at the same time it's really no different than any other cooldown. You wouldn't pop wings on Kromog during knock-up phase would you? So why would you push yourself to 5 Holy Power at an inopportune time?

I imagine the push-to-5 mechanic would interfere with how the class feels with respect to encounter mechanics; if we're removed from combat due to mechanics any time during our big-dick DPS phase of the static 10 sec, it would feel terrible ("aw man, if only I could have used my entire damage window!"). Ideally, we'd need to spend x time building to 5, then 10 seconds in the window, mashing our TV for single-target or DS for AoE. That means our rotational cycle winds up being 10+x sec. Other classes have a variable rotational cycle in their DPS, Havoc - for instance - only requires 4 or 5 GCDs before they're resource capped, then use up x sec of GCDs on their spenders, increasing with crit chance. Essentially, they have a more fluid rotational cycle of 4.5+x, as opposed to Zealotry's 10+x. The majority of their variability also lies in their consumption phase of DPS, rather than their build-phase of DPS, accounting for the variability of their resource generation (20-30 Fury built per GCD).

Essentially, having a long, rotational, and static window of high damage doesn't feel fun outside of abilities like Vendetta or Avenging Wrath; at least to me.

here's the link if you're interested: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...re-commenting)

I'll have to take a look at this another time. From what I've read so far, there are a few reservations I'd have about a set-up like this, but I'll explain in that thread, instead.

[Deleted]

I havent tested much, but the changes look good. It definitly upped the tempo on the spec.

I don't know what the point is on the CD difference between BoW and BoV, but i'm sure there is a reason (about 1 second difference?).

[Ashelorh]

It'd be cool if divine hammer shared a cooldown with blade of justice instead of replacing it

[Sungamnori]

It'd be cool if divine hammer shared a cooldown with blade of justice instead of replacing it

Ya, but then we'd have a WHOLE EXTRA ability on our bars, and heaven forbid we should actually be able to fill up all our bar slots. Its very intimidating to new players.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It'd be cool if divine hammer shared a cooldown with blade of justice instead of replacing it

An interesting idea, making a decision between AOE and Single target isn't bad design last I checked. That and if people are so inclined, it showed which Pally was doing it right then wrong.

Ya, but then we'd have a WHOLE EXTRA ability on our bars, and heaven forbid we should actually be able to fill up all our bar slots. Its very intimidating to new players.

They need to fix the learning curve I agree but this isn't the way to deal with it. Also I think they made it inadvertently harder without the core abilities tab gone in Legion.

[Deleted]

So... i messed around a bit more, and i confess i don't understand how to play this spec. I wish Blizz would tell us how we are suppose to play this because i honestly don't understand. I can't find a way for it to flow in an efficient way anymore. I will go into more detail on the problems i see.

1. So, the new lower cooldown on the blade spell makes it available more often, but it means that more often you come to the situation where you will have 4 HP and if you use it you will waste HP, but if you don't then you experience down time waiting for Zeal.

2. If instead you use fires, then often your CS will sit at 2 charges you can't use.

3. Often your CD on blade will come up as you start a judgement phase, wich means delaying it for 2 globals (judgement + first TV). Same thing can happen with fires and even Zeal.

4. If you get DP procs it gets delayed even further cause you are still at 5 HP.

5. Virtue or wrath don't seem to make a huge difference. Wrath is more available, but the clashing problems persist.

6. Things get more chaotic with ES. Also ES is in itself a problem because it seems to only be up for 1 every 2 judgement cycles. But its not by much, so the ability will be off cooldown by a long time before you can use it again with a judgement window.

So many times and so often abilities will just stand there off cooldown but you can't use them cause you are capped on HP or in ES case because you can't fit in in the current judgement cycle. It feels like their CD is almost irrelevant because the HP dictates the cooldown of things.

I really don't understand what Blizzard is doing here. There is no satisfying flow where you are maximising your performance. If someone finds a good talent choice combination that you think flows well and experiences a low ammount of downtime and skill CD waste, let me know.

My conclusion is that cooldown based HP and the judgement window simply don't work together. The systems keep battling each other. Blizz really has to give this one up. I don't think there is a way for this to work in this framework. They need to go back to the drawing board on this one, wether they like it or not.

As for sugestion to try and aleviate this... i don't know. We could try with the blades generating only 1 HP instead of 2. But maybe the blades should just be filler and have CS be the only generator without a CD. It's all a big mess tbh. I don't see how this can be salvaged... unless they simply scrap the judgement system completely.

[Sungamnori]

I really don't understand what Blizzard is doing here.

Literally throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks.

[Camaris]

It's time to bring Art of War back. Give us a Blade of Wrath reset *or* buffed insta-cast heal so we have *something* for PvP/emergencies.

[Ashelorh]

Oh yeah, meant to ask this for a while, when does one use Wake of Ashes? Can't seem to find any empty GCDs to use it without delaying something

[ruiizu]

Oh yeah, meant to ask this for a while, when does one use Wake of Ashes? Can't seem to find any empty GCDs to use it without delaying something

I think we're just back to priority. Sometimes you just use the stronger attack is all. It's not necessarily as bad as we're trying to make it. Basically when you use Wake of Ashes, you're partially resetting the rotation to the beginning (since now you've got full HP, time to use Judge and TV).

I've been leveling with the new cds, rotation feels perfectly fine now. I'd much rather have overflow HP than not enough.

[Ashelorh]

I think we're just back to priority. Sometimes you just use the stronger attack is all. It's not necessarily as bad as we're trying to make it. Basically when you use Wake of Ashes, you're partially resetting the rotation to the beginning (since now you've got full HP, time to use Judge and TV).

I've been leveling with the new cds, rotation feels perfectly fine now. I'd much rather have overflow HP than not enough.

Ok but when do you use it? As soon as it's up?

[Sungamnori]

Probably as soon as its up and you've spent all your hp... Or you might find a situation where you have no hp, wake has 2 more seconds till its ready... it might be better to wait and not use any generators, wait for wake to be available, then use it and go from there.

[ruiizu]

Ok but when do you use it? As soon as it's up?

Sol has some math on it I believe, but ultimately I think it's never worth delaying use unless you're expecting adds to spawn. If you have Holy Power, you should just dump it ASAP and then pop Wake. Keep in mind Judge is only down for a max of 3 seconds at any time, so you should never really delay more than that.

[Chaosinciter]

Stuff

Now i want to preface this with that this is just my views on things and a recounting my experience with ret's rotation from the PTR so obviously it's not wholly accurate for 110. With that out of the way i'm going to try and address some things you've said.

1.) While i have ran into the 4 HP dilemma a number of times (it's pretty much unavoidable at times) it's rarely an issue as with my character ( copy from live, so-so gear 14% haste 27% crit 36% mastery) I usually take that as a opportunity to start up a ES into judge cycle (i'm actually very fond of ES and have no issues working it into our rotation). So it usually looks like: 4HP BoJ off CD, 1 Charge Zeal/CS so it proceeds into ES > BoJ > CS/Zeal > CS/Zeal > Judge > TV > CS/Zeal > TV > Cs/Zeal > BoJ > TV. Zeal obviously throws it off a bit by just being slower HP generation in general, but it's still entirely possible.

2.) I've honestly never sat on 2 charges of CS for very long, if at all unless i got a chain of DP procs which then shit happens, it's a gain to get those procs than to be returned to standard rotation for generation.

3.) Again it does happen yes, but theres a reason you used Judgment in the first place. That you were ready to begin a burn cycle and having all your generators at the ready is a good thing when heading into a burn cycle to ensure you get the most out of it.

4.) Rather cast a TV or JV for free then continue the generation path.

5.) Wrath is far less appealing (IMO) than it was before due to the hefty nerf to damage it took and puts Virtues above it, but it still has it's use at lower levels of haste.

6.) See i don't really get where this one is coming from, i have ES ready for each judgment cycle, so unless you are using ES and then IMMEDIATELY judging (which you should not be doing) then this is not really a issue and in fact serves to even alleviate the 4 HP dilemma (as i outlined earlier) as it gives you something to use as a spender without having to start a judge cycle that moment that also does not get reduced in damage due to it being cast outside of the judgment window.

Though i'll agree the two systems do bash heads in a sense between the HP generation and the Judge window, but from my experience thus far it does work together oddly enough. One things for certain though, we need that 2HP generation on blades for the rest of the system to work without it, we'd need a faster CD on it or for damage to be shifted from the spender spectrum it currently is to be more balanced something along the lines of the mastery we had initially for Legion.

[Reghame]

@Nemmar, with the 8 second judge window, if your having close to max HP when that window depletes AND boJ cd is coming off CD, that means you messed up, not that the CDs are messed up.

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Sol has some math on it I believe, but ultimately I think it's never worth delaying use unless you're expecting adds to spawn. If you have Holy Power, you should just dump it ASAP and then pop Wake. Keep in mind Judge is only down for a max of 3 seconds at any time, so you should never really delay more than that.

^ and this is how you avoid any problems with the spec. Use judge on CD, and dump all HP whenever possible

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BTW im interesting in how no one has mentioned that with a lower BoJ CD in general, and BoW being 1 second lower than that, no one is talking about having hand of hindrance up more than 50% of the time on their targets now via PVP talent.

[ruiizu]

@Nemmar, with the 8 second judge window, if your having close to max HP when that window depletes AND boJ cd is coming off CD, that means you messed up, not that the CDs are messed up.

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^ and this is how you avoid any problems with the spec. Use judge on CD, and dump all HP whenever possible

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BTW im interesting in how no one has mentioned that with a lower BoJ CD in general, and BoW being 1 second lower than that, no one is talking about having hand of hindrance up more than 50% of the time on their targets now via PVP talent.

I already mentioned that so don't be that guy.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People noticed it, I noticed it so don't go there. Some say Ret is still shit. I would argue it's less shitty then it was in this whole Alpha/beta cycle but still not satisfactory. Take what you can get.

[Ianus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKVAs2J84w8 about ret feedback

[Morally Grey Storm]

^ and this is how you avoid any problems with the spec. Use judge on CD, and dump all HP whenever possible

this helps with our negative mobility how

BTW im interesting in how no one has mentioned that with a lower BoJ CD in general, and BoW being 1 second lower than that, no one is talking about having hand of hindrance up more than 50% of the time on their targets now via PVP talent.

BTW interesting how you act like it matters or like L&O is a good talent.
All it takes to completely negate said talent is to be further than 12 yards from Ret.
Which is not terribly difficult to accomplish.


@ruiizu, thank you for mentioning dodged generator issues and overkill/absorbed JVs on Battle.Net BEta forum.
Slightly annoyed that noone responded.
It's slightly serious issue.