[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

Retribution is still very much in an experimental phase on the alpha right now, so don't get attached or too annoyed at anything they add to/remove from the spec.

I also really like the new Inquisiti-... Er, I mean, Seal of Light. It is very important to remember that with Wake of Ashes generating 5HP on demand, we have no initial ramp time like we did with Inquisition in MOP or with Seraphim in WOD.

Posted my initial impressions of the latest build on the alpha forums: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3527?page=3#53

Thats true, but then you lose that holy power to use on damage skills or in burst situations. It's essentially costing you 2.5 TV's or Divine storms. If you are pulling with hero, look who just got his hero damage gimped. Not to mention that you want to line that up with wings. Its a severe damage loss to not line it up with wings actually.
As you can imagine, other classes don't have to bother with such things. Even ferals have an option now.

You know, the problem with 100% upkeep buffs is that they can't ever be buffs unless overpowered. They are just a way to remove the permanent debuff from your character. They never feel rewarding, they feel like penalties. Not to mention they waste resources and GCD's not DPS'ing. As you can imagine as gear gets better we get hurt even more by it as other classes make more and more of a difference with those GCD's you are wasting doing no damage but keeping your permanent debuff cleared.
This isn't a good talent at all. It has the same problems inquisition did.

Anyways, i really hope you are right. I really want to stick to Ret, but this talent tree is a really bad joke, and the changes so far haven't put blizzard in a good light (ha!).
Look you have a point and i agree. The reason why i'm angry is because we don't have a choice atm. Though i do think SoL is complete trash and should be removed. Heck i will take Seraphim over it anyday. At least Sera feels like a buff when its up.

[Alindra]

Yeah well... inquisition also noticeably impacted your gameplay. Without it you were crap and with it you barely managed to keep up. But the problem aren't the numbers, its that it simply isn't fun. It feels like a penalty. This also messes up your every pull while every other class goes all out and you have to build up your silly buff before you get going. I experienced this shallow experience during Cata and it was dreadful.

Cata Inquisition indeed sucked hard. HP was hard to come by (CS only without a tier bonus) and it only lasted 30 seconds. Inquisition in MoP (esp by SoO) wasn't that big of a deal with all the haste stacking. How Seal of Light feels will really depend on the speed of HP generation in Legion - it might not be too bad (esp with Ashbringer allowing us to generate 5 HP on the pull) and Seal of Light granting a sizable amount of haste also speeding up HP generation. Come to think of it, since it grants haste and not +dmg, it may even be optional on short trash pull if they're only a few GCDs long anyway.

Also, don't forget that aside from Divine Steed, this is our only (PvE) mobility increase.

[ruiizu]

Yeah well... inquisition also noticeably impacted your gameplay. Without it you were crap and with it you barely managed to keep up. But the problem aren't the numbers, its that it simply isn't fun. It feels like a penalty. This also messes up your every pull while every other class goes all out and you have to build up your silly buff before you get going. I experienced this shallow experience during Cata and it was dreadful.

Holy wrath makes no sense unless it deals (alot) more damage than TV and doesn't reset your swings.
The heal takes the cake though. Go gimp yourself, blizzard tells us.

In truth as it stands there is no choice. Its the new Inquisition or nothing. Inquisition is where i draw the line. I'm not having that trash again, no matter how much i love my Ret Paladin.

The only place I agree with you is that I do not like Inquisition being a mandatory non-choice talent. That aspect I hate.

However, Wake of Ashes pretty much eliminates our initial ramp up time by starting us at 5 holy power. On top of that, Inquisition only increased damage passively; Seal of Light reduces the cooldown on our attacks because it grants Haste, and it makes us run faster. Compare that to 30% holy damage and I think you'll find there's a big difference in how one feels (read: one makes numbers slightly larger, the other actually makes you press buttons faster and makes your character move quicker).

Holy Wrath right now is reading as 1100% attack power. That's 11x attack power, so it's not "that" strong at present; if it benefits from Ashbringer's traits however, it will be incredibly powerful if you can finish the whole cast. The big definer will be whether it can be used while moving, whether it is a physical cast or magical cast (IE kick-able), and whether it interrupts auto-swing. If all of those conditions are favorable (can move, can't be interrupted, auto-attack continues) then it will be a pretty beast short CD with strong healing and damage, with a bonus on HoJ'd targets.

Btw, Seal of Light haste quite literally "pays for itself" in the amount of extra holy power you generate with it active.

[Super Kami Dende]

Actually not too worried about Seal of Light, Inq always felt out of whack for me due to the HP generation at the time and its 24sec duration (36 with talents) since it was before Sanctity of Battle.

With Seal of Light giving 25% haste and Zeal giving 20%. 45% haste means sanctity will bring quite quick CD's even without haste on gear. With conviction generating/reducing the Holy power needed for abilities as well it will feel much less starved than Inquisition.

Seal of Light also lasts for 45secs, you can easily manage to gather 3 holy power in 45 secs with Conviction and 45% haste before gear with Zeal and SoL between uses.

The biggest stall will be the first 3 HP of a fight, but with Zeal have 2 charges now and Blade of Justice generating 2HP, you can run in Zeal (20% haste), Blade of Justice with a faster GCD, 3HP Seal of Light and go into a near constant uptime 45% haste rotation for the rest of the fight since Zeal haste will always be up since it will be your Crusader Strike replacement generator. AND ON TOP OF ALL THAT 20% Move speed constantly in Combat.

Actually very much looking foward to a Zeal/SoL build. the other 2 lvl 100 talents suck major dick, but the 45% haste build sounds like it will bring Ret close to a 1 sec GCD class and that felt great in MoP with Haste Stacking.

- - - Updated - - -

However, Wake of Ashes pretty much eliminates our initial ramp up time by starting us at 5 holy power.

Reading that makes my above assumptions even better since my only issue was the first application.

I really hope this Zeal/SoL build stays in.

[killwithpwr]

Funny question:

After getting the Foreberance free Artifact Trait, we will essentially be able to BoP ourselves to the end of time...?

[Super Kami Dende]

Funny question:

After getting the Foreberance free Artifact Trait, we will essentially be able to BoP ourselves to the end of time...?

They literally just changed that talent 6 hrs ago not do it anymore. Only has 1 rank that reduces forb by 10secs.

[Eon Drache]

Seal of Light feels MUCH better than Inquisition. It is actually quite fun. Thanks to our Wake of Ashes giving 5 on the pull we can have a 100% uptime on SoL. Haste also makes Ret feel sooo much better. I do wish that the other talents allow for a slower paced gameplay choice for those that don't like the quicker route with SoL/Zeal. Some people rather have slower but harder hitting abilities where you have a few GCDs as Ret is filling a "Support" role with heals and blessings.

At this point I'm pretty happy with the feel of gameplay for our rotation, however I really wish we had more viable options in our talent tree that were also fun. Shield of Vengeance has too long a CD and I want Turalyon's Might back.

[Deleted]

The only place I agree with you is that I do not like Inquisition being a mandatory non-choice talent. That aspect I hate.

However, Wake of Ashes pretty much eliminates our initial ramp up time by starting us at 5 holy power. On top of that, Inquisition only increased damage passively; Seal of Light reduces the cooldown on our attacks because it grants Haste, and it makes us run faster. Compare that to 30% holy damage and I think you'll find there's a big difference in how one feels (read: one makes numbers slightly larger, the other actually makes you press buttons faster and makes your character move quicker).

Holy Wrath right now is reading as 1100% attack power. That's 11x attack power, so it's not "that" strong at present; if it benefits from Ashbringer's traits however, it will be incredibly powerful if you can finish the whole cast. The big definer will be whether it can be used while moving, whether it is a physical cast or magical cast (IE kick-able), and whether it interrupts auto-swing. If all of those conditions are favorable (can move, can't be interrupted, auto-attack continues) then it will be a pretty beast short CD with strong healing and damage, with a bonus on HoJ'd targets.

Btw, Seal of Light haste quite literally "pays for itself" in the amount of extra holy power you generate with it active.

Seal of Light feels MUCH better than Inquisition. It is actually quite fun. Thanks to our Wake of Ashes giving 5 on the pull we can have a 100% uptime on SoL. Haste also makes Ret feel sooo much better. I do wish that the other talents allow for a slower paced gameplay choice for those that don't like the quicker route with SoL/Zeal. Some people rather have slower but harder hitting abilities where you have a few GCDs as Ret is filling a "Support" role with heals and blessings.

At this point I'm pretty happy with the feel of gameplay for our rotation, however I really wish we had more viable options in our talent tree that were also fun. Shield of Vengeance has too long a CD and I want Turalyon's Might back.

How can you guys say that? This buff that removes your DPS penalty comes at the cost of your burst DPS CD aswell, and you don't see a problem with that?!
Oh deary me... you don't like doing damage very much do you? Guys are you really aware of the tools the competition has? We have no chance under these conditions. This haste buff makes what is a clunky and slow rotation seem less bad at the cost of your burst CD. You do realise that two bads don't make a right? You aren't quite seeing the picture here and the dangerous game you are playing with your raid viabilities.

But fine, i would be ok with it if it was simply an option. As the only option, its completely unnaceptable... and in my opinion complete trash, but alas.

[Ryuji]

...I keep forgetting about Wake of Ashes' 5 HP at the start. Ignore my previous post in this thread.

How can you guys say that? This buff that removes your DPS penalty comes at the cost of your burst DPS CD aswell, and you don't see a problem with that?!
Oh deary me... you don't like doing damage very much do you? Guys are you really aware of the tools the competition has? We have no chance under these conditions. This haste buff makes what is a clunky and slow rotation seem less bad at the cost of your burst CD. You do realise that two bads don't make a right? You aren't quite seeing the picture here and the dangerous game you are playing with your raid viabilities.

But fine, i would be ok with it if it was simply an option. As the only option, its completely unnaceptable... and in my opinion complete trash, but alas.

Consider. Currently on live, Seraphim takes a while to build up to get you going, either having you strong-arm your raid group to have you use the ring so it can get the whole duration of Seraphim, or being forced to accept you'll miss out on 5 or so seconds of Seraphim lining up with the ring's burst. A 15 second duration ability on a 30 seconds cooldown requiring 5 HP.

Now compare it to Legion's version of Ret, where the cost of Seal of Light is 3 HP, lasts for 45 seconds. Add in Conviction, tier bonuses(as they are currently) and the possibility of being incredibly lucky to get the legendary item that gives you HP over time while using wings. Add in Zeal as well on a 2-charge system to help fill emtpy globals(wasn't aware it added 2 charges of it till a little while ago).

It seems annoying to have us basically be forced to pick SoL on that tier, that's fair enough. However, haste will make the flow of HP feel incredibly smoother. In T16, 40% haste was absolutely perfect feeling. I'm having better hopes about Legion so long as Zeal and Seal of Light stay as haste. The passive % damage talents still need to go though. That and getting a smoother choice option for some of the tiers(heal vs. buff vs. ability that sucks, or charger speed buff vs. stronger heal vs. shorter bubble cd...odd picks).

Being able to use WoA and immediately pop SoL with pot, hero/warp/lust and all stuff going + Zeal buff should be quite nice feeling. Not sure if SoL is off the GCD though. If it somehow is, perfect imo.

[Deleted]

...I keep forgetting about Wake of Ashes' 5 HP at the start. Ignore my previous post in this thread.



Consider. Currently on live, Seraphim takes a while to build up to get you going, either having you strong-arm your raid group to have you use the ring so it can get the whole duration of Seraphim, or being forced to accept you'll miss out on 5 or so seconds of Seraphim lining up with the ring's burst. A 15 second duration ability on a 30 seconds cooldown requiring 5 HP.

Now compare it to Legion's version of Ret, where the cost of Seal of Light is 3 HP, lasts for 45 seconds. Add in Conviction, tier bonuses(as they are currently) and the possibility of being incredibly lucky to get the legendary item that gives you HP over time while using wings. Add in Zeal as well on a 2-charge system to help fill emtpy globals(wasn't aware it added 2 charges of it till a little while ago).

It seems annoying to have us basically be forced to pick SoL on that tier, that's fair enough. However, haste will make the flow of HP feel incredibly smoother. In T16, 40% haste was absolutely perfect feeling. I'm having better hopes about Legion so long as Zeal and Seal of Light stay as haste. The passive % damage talents still need to go though. That and getting a smoother choice option for some of the tiers(heal vs. buff vs. ability that sucks, or charger speed buff vs. stronger heal vs. shorter bubble cd...odd picks).

Being able to use WoA and immediately pop SoL with pot, hero/warp/lust and all stuff going + Zeal buff should be quite nice feeling. Not sure if SoL is off the GCD though. If it somehow is, perfect imo.

Quite honestly Seraphim is not the same thing as Seal of Light. Seraphim is a short duration buff, not an upkeep one.

Also, Seraphim is a bad talent aswell. It's prone to alot of bad luck. FV gives you a more consistance performance and in average i am convinced you will perform better with it. Seraphim is playing the roulette to see if you get lucky with ranks. Sometimes you do, most times you don't.
But as i said, SoL is quite a different buff. In the case of seraphim with Ashes, it would be different and quite honestly i wouldnt use it like that. I would pool the 5 hp for seraphim and then use ashes for the increases damage and the burst.

No matter how you look at it, SoL is a bad talent. It will cost you more than it gains you. And you are wasting you burst CD so you can keep up with the other classes. Guess what? The other classes don't need to do that. They will pop their burst CD's and you will be left in the dust.

Also to adress what riuuzo said before, SoL only pays for itself if you can stay on the boss constantly. This won't always be the case. Yeah, there are clear advantages to having haste and reducing the CD of your skills, but this would only be beneficial if it was overpowered, as i pointed before. You will be doing this buff not to be awesome for a bit, but to keep up with everyone else (also diminishing returns from heroism?). It also costs a global cooldown am i right? This will cost us aswell, especially as gear gets better. It's bad, its really bad. And i wish you guys could see that this is a bad band aid blizzard is doing for the fact that they haven't come up with a good rotation for Ret.
We are lacking options. We are lacking alot of options. Wake of Ashes was one of the few good things we got with legion and in these circunstances its gonna go down the drain aswell. Legion Ret is so bad and so far behind everyone else its insulting, and i really wish you guys wouldn't conform to the status quo just cause they got something to look less worse than it was before.

I mean seriously, i invite you all to look up the Arms talent tree. Please do it. You will see the real picture we have with Ret. Looking at the arms talent tree you have options on every tier. The Ret one has only 1 type of option on a couple of tiers, wich is single target or aoe. It needs ALOT of work to be anywhere competitive. Of course, many tree's are very much complete already. We are looking like the incomplete spec that will ship unfinished.

Guys we will be at the back of the bus for sure with this. I hope you understand this is very serious. You will have to live with that for 2 years. I wish i could keep my optimism up, but all the changes except conviction have been for the worse or making something bad, a bit less bad.

[Defender]

There definitely has been oversight when they gave Zeal 20% haste. It still stacks to 3, giving you 60% haste. Combine that with Seal of Light's 25%... at level 108 with 15% default haste from gear with 3 stack Zeal and SoL active, my Paladin gain to 131% haste. Ridiculous.

5.18 sec CD on Blade of Justice and Judgment. 3.88 CD for Consecration. Blade of Wrath and Divine Hammer are not affected by haste either atm.

[Found]

There definitely has been oversight when they gave Zeal 20% haste. It still stacks to 3, giving you 60% haste. Combine that with Seal of Light's 25%... at level 108 with 15% default haste from gear with 3 stack Zeal and SoL active, my Paladin gain to 131% haste. Ridiculous.

5.18 sec CD on Blade of Justice and Judgment. 3.88 CD for Consecration.

Sounds about right. Welcome back, 100%-uptime Judgment. We missed you while you were gone.

A couple bugs, though - Consecration's cooldown/duration probably should not scale with haste (or Execution Sentence should scale with haste).

Blade of Wrath and Divine Hammer are not affected by haste either atm.

This is almost definitely a bug.

I like the idea of a very haste-heavy Ret paladin; while the specific numbers offered by Zeal and SoL are likely to change somewhat (I expect Zeal to probably be cut in half), the core idea is pretty nice.

On the other hand, I gotta say I'm a bit confused about what they want to do with Holy Wrath. The spell still seems terrible - I wonder if they're just going to keep buffing it every build until people finally start using it.

[Eon Drache]

How can you guys say that? This buff that removes your DPS penalty comes at the cost of your burst DPS CD aswell, and you don't see a problem with that?!
Oh deary me... you don't like doing damage very much do you? Guys are you really aware of the tools the competition has? We have no chance under these conditions. This haste buff makes what is a clunky and slow rotation seem less bad at the cost of your burst CD. You do realise that two bads don't make a right? You aren't quite seeing the picture here and the dangerous game you are playing with your raid viabilities.

But fine, i would be ok with it if it was simply an option. As the only option, its completely unnaceptable... and in my opinion complete trash, but alas.

I can say that because I know numbers aren't done yet and those can easily be tweaked after the play style is finished. At this point in an alpha, I'm more concerned with how it feels to play the spec without worrying about numbers. In the end it is a lot easier to put a +20% on all our abilities than it is to instantly make it feel better to play it.

Also, as far as I'm aware you don't actually give up a burst CD to use Seal of Light? You give up using 1 Templar's Verdict but in the end the haste gained from using SoL will allow you to ultimately use MORE Templar's Verdict during the entire duration. What Burst CD do you have to give up currently for SoL?

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds about right. Welcome back, 100%-uptime Judgment. We missed you while you were gone.

A couple bugs, though - Consecration's cooldown/duration probably should not scale with haste (or Execution Sentence should scale with haste).

This is almost definitely a bug.

I like the idea of a very haste-heavy Ret paladin; while the specific numbers offered by Zeal and SoL are likely to change somewhat (I expect Zeal to probably be cut in half), the core idea is pretty nice.

On the other hand, I gotta say I'm a bit confused about what they want to do with Holy Wrath. The spell still seems terrible - I wonder if they're just going to keep buffing it every build until people finally start using it.

I personally love how fast the gameplay feels with all that haste! Very fun imo. Just need more optional talents to make it even better for those that like a different feel.

[Defender]

I like the idea of a very haste-heavy Ret paladin; while the specific numbers offered by Zeal and SoL are likely to change somewhat (I expect Zeal to probably be cut in half), the core idea is pretty nice.

On the other hand, I gotta say I'm a bit confused about what they want to do with Holy Wrath. The spell still seems terrible - I wonder if they're just going to keep buffing it every build until people finally start using it.

Yeah. If they intend Zeal to stack for additional cleave targets, while maintaining balance haste amounts, I expect something like 5% haste per stack up to 3.

Regarding BoW and DH, yeah they were affected by haste before this new build. Another bug is Mass Judgment's 50% increase to Judgment actually lowers it right now by about 3k than if you didn't spec into it at all. (base 34k hit, MJ talent hitting for 31k sample)

[Deleted]

We 5.4 Ret again huh?

The changes look pretty solid. Haste instead of attack speed is bonkers, WoA removes the ramp up. Don't complain about SoV, artifact trait reduces its cooldown by 30 seconds which makes it pretty much a DProt. I kinda like the new SoL as well.

Sky is not falling Nemmar, stop doomsaying. Now to patiently await how much they gut haste from Zeal, because fuck no way they'll let us have that much.

[lunethzero]

I'm still pretty upset with the lack of mobility we have now thanks to our gap closer being scrapped off the table. I'm not sure how no mobility is gonna fare against every other class that pretty much more or less has some sort of gap closer or dash like mobility.

[Deleted]

We 5.4 Ret again huh?

The changes look pretty solid. Haste instead of attack speed is bonkers, WoA removes the ramp up. Don't complain about SoV, artifact trait reduces its cooldown by 30 seconds which makes it pretty much a DProt. I kinda like the new SoL as well.

Sky is not falling Nemmar, stop doomsaying. Now to patiently await how much they gut haste from Zeal, because fuck no way they'll let us have that much.

Sky already fell down... and is now going underground with every change they make to ret
Zeal is fine, its something you would still use and speeds everything up, even if it was something like 5% per stack... but SoL is NOT fine at all, no matter the uptime or power. Its a maintenance buff as a final tier talent for duck sake!
Its not like gear doesnt have haste, how will all of that look in later stages of expansion when we get to reasonable haste levels from gear? Is talent dead then(again bad design)? Or we get to the point where judgement loses all skill requirement and becomes another maintenance buff and our gameplay becomes spam everything?

Talents should interact positively with the spec, add synergy, interaction, skill to the gameplay... not "now you can use abilities faster, but its same dull repetitive crap trained monkey can do, just less waiting".
Thats why i never understood how someone can play anything but DP and FV in WoD, no matter the power... as its the only thing that you have to react and pay attention to in the whole damn spec.

Wonder how would other classes think if they needed level 100 maintenance buff as talent so their gameplay finally feels any fun at all...

Only ret can have such terrible gameplay so that you need to be in later stages of expansion or have something stupid as SoL to not be that bad to play and have people not complain about terrible baseline but defend such stupid and terrible designs as SoL, just because it fixes how terrible baseline is...

[Deleted]

Snip

"Ret has a maintenance mechanic 4th expansion in a row. Boohoo, ret is trash tier again because I have to click a skill every 45 seconds."

With more haste later into expansion you just don't pick fucking Zeal for single target. Like, what's the problem?
Too much talent interaction leads to kit overload which is a bad design due to detracting fresh or returning players.

Every expansion during development stage I come to this forums to see a small group of people bitching over and over how bad the state of Ret will be in the next expansion and that's the end of the world. Really? Like, really? Were we trash in MoP? No. Are we trash in WoD? Hell no. So stop being little crybabies who were served hot Cosby. SoL is getting changed for better. The other talents in 100 tier need to be looked at because I'm oh so certain that Storm will come here, throw few feths or sure as sures, whichever the fuck he feels like, and say SoL is only "ok" for dragonslayers. Actually, not only he does that.

Sweet chimichangas in heavens above and beyond.

[Deleted]

"Ret has a maintenance mechanic 4th expansion in a row. Boohoo, ret is trash tier again because I have to click a skill every 45 seconds."

With more haste later into expansion you just don't pick fucking Zeal for single target. Like, what's the problem?
I forgot ya'll just want to be op as fuck with little to no effort put. Mkay.

Quite the opposite, having such abilities as SoL means you want to be OP with no effort, but nice try! Its 0 skill talent. It would take effort if final talent was ability that made you think and had synergy with rest of the spec, something you want to pool HP for or use after something or before something as it interacts with it in positive way and not just use on cd for some minor dmg gain or press once every 45s regardless of everything else.
And its irrelevant what tier ret is if gameplay is terrible, again you fail, but nice try! Its not about power, its about design and gameplay. If maintenance buffs are bad and you keep removing them every expansion from all classes, why keep adding them to paladins? Why paladins need such silly abilities or be at the end of expansion to have acceptable gameplay? Why is it not baseline and then improved upon that? Why is every ret talent and artifact talent just flat dmg increase with no change in gameplay/mechanics and has no interaction with other abilities at all?

And that thing you said first is exactly the reason why its so ridiculous... they remove maintenance buff because its "bad" and they add new one.

Im sure having abilities that need brain and skill to use to full potential would be so much less effort than just keeping silly maintenance buff up...
So later in expansion you would actually rather keep maintenance buff and not something with 0 negative effects on gameplay and that fits right in like zeal? Are you for real?

Lets see whats worse: oh look, ability im using anyway is also speeding up my gameplay a bit and i have nice final talent(imaginary one obviously, as ret cant have that) that works well with overall gameplay... goodie! or oh look, i need to pay attention to this long buff and refresh it couple of times per fight at the cost of active dmg or my gameplay is going to be terrible and its my final talent, boring and tedious. Yes, 2nd one is better!!! NOT

Oh and yes, we were trash in MoP and trash in WoD... and as it is now, Legion is far worse than those 2 expansions. Not to mention that those of us that complained during WoD beta were joined by everyone else (except you it seems) 6 months into expansion, when they finally figured out how bad it is. I actually had arguments here during beta with people like anavie(or whatever the name is of that always banned one) and the rest of "influental" ret paladins, and they claimed how "all we need are number tweaks and no reworks" when i claimed that we need complete rework, as abilities dont work with each other, have no synergy and there is no skill involved, and talents are terrible at best... and 6 months into expansion... suddenly they all whine and cry how terrible designed ret is and how whole spec and abilities work against each other... well duh, been saying it all along when there was a chance of a change... when it goes live its too late

[Deleted]

I can say that because I know numbers aren't done yet and those can easily be tweaked after the play style is finished. At this point in an alpha, I'm more concerned with how it feels to play the spec without worrying about numbers. In the end it is a lot easier to put a +20% on all our abilities than it is to instantly make it feel better to play it.

Also, as far as I'm aware you don't actually give up a burst CD to use Seal of Light? You give up using 1 Templar's Verdict but in the end the haste gained from using SoL will allow you to ultimately use MORE Templar's Verdict during the entire duration. What Burst CD do you have to give up currently for SoL?

It really isnt like that. Wake of ashes is a DPS cooldown. By tying it to SoL you are forced to use it on CD with SoL at least on the pull. This means that all flexibility you could have by timing or delaying the skill say for a burst AoE phase or for quickly bursting down a target is lost, because you can't delay it. You lose flexibility. Of course this is at the pull. Aside from that i already explained how losing the GCD will be increasingly punishing VS other DPS and you only regain the holy power if you have full uptime on the target, wich isnt always the case. What i mean is that with it, you lose the little flexibility you had with your cooldowns and you lose burst, with AW beeing the last one standing, and now without charges anymore.

Another example is that if it werent for SoL you would be able to monitor and use the cooldown when your trinkets proc for maximum output. We lost Light's hamer, we lost the powerful version of execution sentence. We lost divine purpose, we lost holy avenger, we lost final verdict and we lost Seraphim. We even lost Sactified Wrath and Hammer of Wrath. We have no options at all. We are one trick ponies in legion as it stands. Our output will always be constant aside from AW. All you got to play with are your stacks of conviction. No chance versus other classes.

So, instead of throwing haste at the problem to try and masquerade the issue and a new inquisition that will costs us more than it gives us on our already limited flexibility, i would like to see the rotation actually have some more meat to it and DPS options beeing added. Not effin passive damage increases, heals and dumb CD's like equality. We NEED options desperatly.

- - - Updated - - -

"Ret has a maintenance mechanic 4th expansion in a row. Boohoo, ret is trash tier again because I have to click a skill every 45 seconds."

With more haste later into expansion you just don't pick fucking Zeal for single target. Like, what's the problem?
Too much talent interaction leads to kit overload which is a bad design due to detracting fresh or returning players.

Every expansion during development stage I come to this forums to see a small group of people bitching over and over how bad the state of Ret will be in the next expansion and that's the end of the world. Really? Like, really? Were we trash in MoP? No. Are we trash in WoD? Hell no. So stop being little crybabies who were served hot Cosby. SoL is getting changed for better. The other talents in 100 tier need to be looked at because I'm oh so certain that Storm will come here, throw few feths or sure as sures, whichever the fuck he feels like, and say SoL is only "ok" for dragonslayers. Actually, not only he does that.

Sweet chimichangas in heavens above and beyond.

Ridiculous! Are we OP on live? Have you looked at all the tools the other melee classes have? Because you are just trying to accept the status quo of whatever gets thrown your way because you don't understand what it means. This is nothing like past expansions. Past expansion made little changes, this expansion is a complete redesign. There probably isnt anything left in the legion talent tree that resembles the live one. These things need to be said. Not everyone wants to suck for a full expansion again.

Ret has been bad for many expansions. Our time in the the sun was long and slow in the coming. We finally reached WoD to see the best Ret ever(and not overpowered!). Sorry, if seeing that going away isnt a problem for you, but you're gonna have to understand that we don't want to go back to Cata levels of mechanics when everyone else is way ahead of that.