[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[scapeg]

I rememeber seeing that live, that was actually really funny but a pretty long time ago. Was that actually you? If so, that's really cool.

year my beta toon is called Kaelin. I also remember that game, i was just pissed and didnt know why we lost. I hope ididnt play that bad Oo!!

[OrcsRLame]

propably because of the bugg( i think it's a bugg at elast) that lets you keep your crusade stacks if you spamm the ability just as it about to run out giving you some 45+ seconds of fully stacked crusade.

withouth the 2 set bonus on our tier gear this would be impossible and that lowers the value of crusade quite a bit. I'ts proapbly still going to be the top talent when we got the extra duration from ashbringer but before that i can see DP winning out and DP is propably winning out atm for people withouth the set bonus or with high latency since higher latency makes it ahrder to refresh it in time to ahve the stacks carry over

The Crusade bug got fixed second week of pre patch, and you won't find any top logs abusing it. If you go a not retarded route with your Ashbringer, you should have 3/3 Wrath of the Ashbringer within 10 hours of the expansion launching, servers willing.

[scapeg]

Just played the demon invasion with my ret. sometime you get a buff with 20% haste + my base 10% it was actually much more fun to play, the rotation played so much better and fluid, even Judgment window wasnt a problem anymore. Pve wise i can imagine to enjoy it actually.

[Neldarie]

The Crusade bug got fixed second week of pre patch, and you won't find any top logs abusing it. If you go a not retarded route with your Ashbringer, you should have 3/3 Wrath of the Ashbringer within 10 hours of the expansion launching, servers willing.

It was never fixed. It just latency rng and getting lucky I guess: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=224668

But ye things like legendary cloak may affect the power swing between Crusade and DP. And also 3charges as people pointed out. Like it really doesn't matter if you lose your stacks or not its the overall uptime on Crusade vs No Crusade on short encounters. DP's strength is output outside of wings. Best you gonna get in legion is around 25% uptime where people now get 40%++ with Crusade.

[OrcsRLame]

It was never fixed. It just latency rng and getting lucky I guess: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=224668

But ye things like legendary cloak may affect the power swing between Crusade and DP. And also 3charges as people pointed out.

Fascinating! Thank you for correcting me.

From what I've seen, Cloak of the Nathrezim favors Crusade. It seems like everything favors Crusade at 110 tbh. I think Wrath of the Ashbringer and Ashes to Ashes are more dps than the other 2 charges of AW. They're more total time with max stack Crusade active, outside of, I guess, getting the bug to work.

[Deleted]

I think Wrath of the Ashbringer and Ashes to Ashes are more dps than the other 2 charges of AW. They're more total time with max stack Crusade active, outside of, I guess, getting the bug to work.

You forgot to think about the flexibility the charges offered to us. Were other classes had to choose between going full burst on pull or saving cds for adds we had the flexibility to do both. Also with the charges gone we will once again have to fire wings every time when it comes of cooldown.

[OrcsRLame]

You forgot to think about the flexibility the charges offered to us. Were other classes had to choose between going full burst on pull or saving cds for adds we had the flexibility to do both. Also with the charges gone we will once again have to fire wings every time when it comes of cooldown.

I didn't forget anything, just wasn't discussing that aspect of things. Personally, I don't like the idea of being balanced around 3 charges of AW. It's kind of weird. In HFC, ret bursted up to x amount on pull, and then stayed there for like a year. Seemed like our cooldowns just never ended, except when they did. That's using it more or less on CD though. Saving AW for particular times certainly felt more fun, but there wasn't a lot of times where that was necessary. I did it on Xhul and Archimonde, and probably would have on Mannoroth if I was dpsing that fight.

And we still have the option to not hit AW on CD. Saving it is just more punishing as we have to assess the opportunity cost of wasting some of the CD vs using it at a time where it might be needed more. To use HFC as an example, I would not hit AW with Archimonde at 44% in P2, no matter how much theoretical dps I was losing by saving it. Just isn't worth it.

On the flip of having less flexibility; we do more damage when AW is up at a time where it's needed. One use of Crusade at 110 is a way bigger damage increase than one use of AW at 100, so if there is a priority target that has to die right now, if you can be hitting 15 stacks at the exact moment you need to switch to it, there is not a spec in the game that will out-dps you on that target unless it lives longer than 25 seconds.

[Snegovik]

Ret got a decent buff in PvP templates (23rd of August), our TV dmg is 100% up from 70%, JV dmg is 100% up from 70% (on stunned target extra dmg is 50% down from 100%) and ES is 85% up from 60%. A very welcome buff to our dmg in PvP, since we were far far behind in dmg compared to most of the DPS classes.

[Deleted]

teh damage is real.

but me still not convinced of DP, HW performance just feels superior.
if u do the numbers 4 ideal environment (100% uptime dps-rota) every 12 gcd 1 JV free, in total 10 free JVs/3min, well, thats never gonna happen. ingame with minor toolkit (and movement issues) 1-max 2 DP is more likely, which is max 100k bonusheal/min.
HW turns out superior in critical situations, esp. burn-out phases. enemy cant prognose if DP/HW, itz as standard in rated a matter of timing, not rngesus.
there is no reliance on 4-5DP spree...

[Snegovik]

-snip-

Ya pure dmg wise, HW is still better. But what about a scenario when you are not a KT? When ever it happens i feel like i am lacking DPS while my teammates are dying. For example if both teams are melee clvs and both are training healers, you know?

Edit: Sometimes DP procs into amazing mini bursts, Like i stun a non-orc into full HOJ, i use JV right away, and then DP procs 3 times in a row, so i get 4 JVs on stunned target, of course this happens very rarely, but when it does, game is over pretty much you can kill or get some1 to 10% hp

[Stormdash]

teh damage is real.

but me still not convinced of DP, HW performance just feels superior.
if u do the numbers 4 ideal environment (100% uptime dps-rota) every 12 gcd 1 JV free, in total 10 free JVs/3min, well, thats never gonna happen. ingame with minor toolkit (and movement issues) 1-max 2 DP is more likely, which is max 100k bonusheal/min.
HW turns out superior in critical situations, esp. burn-out phases. enemy cant prognose if DP/HW, itz as standard in rated a matter of timing, not rngesus.
there is no reliance on 4-5DP spree...

I think I see more drops of Ashes of A'lar than I do DP procs.

[Deleted]

I think I see more drops of Ashes of A'lar than I do DP procs.

Oh cmon... just stop it.

It's a 20% chance. That is how much you get. Stop expecting it to happen all the bloody time. That is why it's a proc. Sometimes you get loads, sometimes you get none, sometimes you get some. But you will never get it constantly. That inconsistency that relies on your reactivity is what makes it interesting.

Now lets stop that kind of feedback so the class doesn't get even more boring. Procs are fun and are a good thing. Your mindset towards them is what's wrong.

[Snegovik]

I think I see more drops of Ashes of A'lar than I do DP procs.

I have a funny story about ashes (off topic) i was farming for a bit over a year, no luck back in Cata. Then my friend ran raid 4 times, got ashes dropped 3 times out of 4, for himself, me, and his friend. I remb i thought he is crazy when he told me to come with him if i want my ashes 100% lol....so if u take his luck with ashes and put it for DP, Ret will be pretty OP 75% proc chance =)

[Deleted]

Oh cmon... just stop it.

It's a 20% chance. That is how much you get. Stop expecting it to happen all the bloody time. That is why it's a proc. Sometimes you get loads, sometimes you get none, sometimes you get some. But you will never get it constantly. That inconsistency that relies on your reactivity is what makes it interesting.

Now lets stop that kind of feedback so the class doesn't get even more boring. Procs are fun and are a good thing. Your mindset towards them is what's wrong.

lol, wat? wat is that 4 assumption? critique results in boring class design? critique is the result of boring/inferior class design.

one major critique 4 WoD was this inconsistency, the reliance on procs.
u just dont want inconsistency in rated or progress. in pve DP will b replaced by Crusade at 30% haste. btw hf mythic+9 without any DP-procs :D
also it doesnt rely primarily on "reactivity", but rngesus - a T7 dependant on rng is always russian roulette with an automatic, cuz rngesus is a fail0r.

what were trying to do is to enhance T7, Snegoviks suggestion DP 75% chance is op, 50% would be sufficient enough, but ill take the 75% without debate.

[Stormdash]

Oh cmon... just stop it.

It's a 20% chance. That is how much you get. Stop expecting it to happen all the bloody time. That is why it's a proc. Sometimes you get loads, sometimes you get none, sometimes you get some. But you will never get it constantly. That inconsistency that relies on your reactivity is what makes it interesting.

Now lets stop that kind of feedback so the class doesn't get even more boring. Procs are fun and are a good thing. Your mindset towards them is what's wrong.

It's 20% that feels pretty damn unlucky. I mean, there are plenty of abilities in plenty of toolkits that proc at or around that rate that don't feel as desperately rare. Maybe it's because it makes SUCH a difference in the ret toolkit to get that extra free finisher. By contrast, an Art of War proc was the same rate, but A) the proccing behavior was much, much more frequent (auto-attack) and B) the reward of the proc was not nearly, by orders of magnitude, as important to your output as an extra finisher.

In practice, it feels like "okay, here's the one. Nope. Okay, okay, THIS one. Nope. (boss reaches 4%) okay, judgment's up, TV, and YES (boss dies), I can... #%$!".

Being based around finishers, I'd rather see DP up around 30 or even 40%. Retune around it, if you must -- still feels more FUN to hit the spender button than to hope, desperately, for more chances to.

[Camaris]

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844917

That is what hunters get...why not a thread like this for paladins? And not only paladins, every class would benefit from something like this.
They want to know why people are no longer attracted by their class? Perhaps they should risk a glimpse into that 142-pages retribution feedback thread.

On the other hand, opening such a thread for hunters only shows, that devs are not reading the feedback threads.

Everyone knows that the Retribution community is only full of whiners who want to be overpowered. It's a fact. /sarcasm off.

lol, wat? wat is that 4 assumption? critique results in boring class design? critique is the result of boring/inferior class design.

one major critique 4 WoD was this inconsistency, the reliance on procs.
u just dont want inconsistency in rated or progress. in pve DP will b replaced by Crusade at 30% haste. btw hf mythic+9 without any DP-procs
also it doesnt rely primarily on "reactivity", but rngesus - a T7 dependant on rng is always russian roulette with an automatic, cuz rngesus is a fail0r.

what were trying to do is to enhance T7, Snegoviks suggestion DP 75% chance is op, 50% would be sufficient enough, but ill take the 75% without debate.

T17 I pulled consistently high numbers. The finesse in using procs (whether it was Cata 4.0, which I also made work, or T17 BRF with procs that procced procs so you could proc) is setting yourself up to take maximum advantage of them when they do pop up. T18 I have not been able to make work after consistently topping charts since Firelands. Prepatch 7.0 has been even worse. The same raiders I was trading #1 with in BRF consistently did 50% more damage than I could pull in T18 and are doing double my damage or more in Prepatch 7.0.

"It's only prepatch, Ashbringer will fix everything," some of you say. "Set bonuses will fix everything. Artifacts will fix everything." A well-designed spec functions before all these things are added, and it's not as though we're the only spec in the game getting these tools. History shows that by and large the other specs will get better designed and better scaling versions of all of these things. That, incidentally, is why prepatch matters.

It's 20% that feels pretty damn unlucky. I mean, there are plenty of abilities in plenty of toolkits that proc at or around that rate that don't feel as desperately rare. Maybe it's because it makes SUCH a difference in the ret toolkit to get that extra free finisher. By contrast, an Art of War proc was the same rate, but A) the proccing behavior was much, much more frequent (auto-attack) and B) the reward of the proc was not nearly, by orders of magnitude, as important to your output as an extra finisher.

In practice, it feels like "okay, here's the one. Nope. Okay, okay, THIS one. Nope. (boss reaches 4%) okay, judgment's up, TV, and YES (boss dies), I can... #%$!".

Being based around finishers, I'd rather see DP up around 30 or even 40%. Retune around it, if you must -- still feels more FUN to hit the spender button than to hope, desperately, for more chances to.

20% is low and the lowest that Divine Purpose has ever been since Cataclysm 4.0ish. Personally it's been my favorite playstyle talent since MoP (which made T17 particularly fun and I was capable of high performance within my circle as well). It could seriously use one of three things: a higher proc chance (25% minimum), a passive benefit attached (preferably not RNG based; some RNG is good, multiple iterations of it can be pretty wonky), or streak protection similar to what Fire Mages and (I think?) Fury Warriors receive with similar talents that their performance is highly dependent on.

[Taeldorian]

@Camaris @Tiaron Im pretty sure Ornyx (blue CM} went into the Warlock forums and said he will give all of their information to the dev team to look at because they also dont like their class changes. Its actually hilarious.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...lock-voices-2/ Here it is. Its pretty annoying to see other classes getting this much attention when its pretty obvious we need it. I mean some people in our Legion beta feedback forum are actually idiots and dont help anything. They just like to whine and theres a few people that have a lot of wrong information, but that seems to be every feedback forum. No need to not pay attention to us because ours is the biggest. Yeah it has whiners and people with wrong info, so does every other forum.

I also feel like hes just saying that to calm them down. Unless classes can still be revamped a week before Launch, I dont think theres really anything they can do with the info they collect.

[jackofwind]

@Camaris @Tiaron Im pretty sure Ornyx (blue CM} went into the Warlock forums and said he will give all of their information to the dev team to look at because they also dont like their class changes. Its actually hilarious.

Yeah he did, it was pretty pathetic this close to launch. Maybe we'll finally see them fix the shit they broke when they made the Artifact ghosts untargetable (ie: 2 of our 3 golden traits.)



OT: I was doing this all night yesterday, and it was glorious. (Wings + Ring + Judgement effect + Empowered JV)

[Camaris]

@Taeldorian Par for the course. The only time Ret receives prompt attention is when we're overperforming in any capacity. I realize my own attitude probably sounds indistinguishable from some portions of the community, but I'm tired and angry of seeing this expansion after expansion. I'm ham in the ocean salty about it and don't care any more after years of trying to be circumspect about the whole "Blizzard hates Rets" stereotype.

In a lot of ways I don't have a horse in this race any more. My guild downed Mythic Archimonde in overtime last night and I refuse to purchase Legion even though they're a great group with a lot of friends. But I still love the concept of the Retribution paladin and I believe the design we've been handed is unacceptable. I can't dictate what others do but I'm voting with my $60 and passing on this expansion until the design team decides my money is as good as someone who mains a mage or hunter. Hopefully that means I come back to play instead of just kvetch at some point in the future, but if not, there are other games to play.

[Deleted]

T17 I pulled consistently high numbers. The finesse in using procs (whether it was Cata 4.0, which I also made work, or T17 BRF with procs that procced procs so you could proc) is setting yourself up to take maximum advantage of them when they do pop up. T18 I have not been able to make work after consistently topping charts since Firelands. Prepatch 7.0 has been even worse. The same raiders I was trading #1 with in BRF consistently did 50% more damage than I could pull in T18 and are doing double my damage or more in Prepatch 7.0.

"It's only prepatch, Ashbringer will fix everything," some of you say. "Set bonuses will fix everything. Artifacts will fix everything." A well-designed spec functions before all these things are added, and it's not as though we're the only spec in the game getting these tools. History shows that by and large the other specs will get better designed and better scaling versions of all of these things. That, incidentally, is why prepatch matters.

i dislike being categorized when u misread t7 for t17 (which def. means talent tier 7, where DP is).
even more weird, cuz u verify all my personal and posted argument vs DP.

and ofc u r right, talent tree is design base, so it starts here. and yes, were all talking prepatch here.