[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[ruiizu]

All I can say is this (from a pve perspective, already spoke largely about pvp)

1.Judgement debuff applying to us as a buff rather than a debuff to our target. This would make our mastery fluid, and less like an arms warrior. I feel like this is mandatory and a really good fix to the judgement issue while also addressing the feeling of arms warrior mastery. This is really the last thing I see that could help ret, other than this were in a pretty good place pve wise. Another thing is mass judgement, if this gets tuned correctly we could use it on cleave fights which allow us to switch to any adds that come during the fight. That could work as well as long as it's tuned right.

2.Holy wrath channeled while moving. This isn't necessary, but it would be really nice to have when steed is on CD and we need to move but don't want to lose dps.

Making judgment a buff would be a huge boon for us because it would make target switching less punitive for situations like (this guy is at 30%, GET HIM), because we could turn and just dump a Templar's Verdict.

But barring that, they could also make mastery just increase the damage of Divine Storm. I think it's probably easier to do the buff part, but I'm unsure they want us being versatile with target switching (but honestly if we don't have mobility, we NEED to be able to switch targets fluidly because our uptime won't allow us to "set up" much).

Probably worth mentioning that if we can't have mobility, we definitely need powerful anti-mobility. If you recall originally Rogues had very poor mobility (Sprint on 3 min CD was it, along with Vanish for roots), but crippling poison was just incredibly strong if they could actually reach you. If we're going to have trouble catching people, they should be in deep crap if we do, and not just from damage. It should be really hard to get away.

[Taeldorian]

Making judgment a buff would be a huge boon for us because it would make target switching less punitive for situations like (this guy is at 30%, GET HIM), because we could turn and just dump a Templar's Verdict.

But barring that, they could also make mastery just increase the damage of Divine Storm. I think it's probably easier to do the buff part, but I'm unsure they want us being versatile with target switching (but honestly if we don't have mobility, we NEED to be able to switch targets fluidly because our uptime won't allow us to "set up" much).

Probably worth mentioning that if we can't have mobility, we definitely need powerful anti-mobility. If you recall originally Rogues had very poor mobility (Sprint on 3 min CD was it, along with Vanish for roots), but crippling poison was just incredibly strong if they could actually reach you. If we're going to have trouble catching people, they should be in deep crap if we do, and not just from damage. It should be really hard to get away.

@the bolded part, that's exactly what we should be able to do honestly. With the little mobility, little defenisives, and little healing we have, we should be able to do exactly that.

Every class excels in one thing and sucks in another (see previous posts), we so far seem to be the only class that lacks in all 3 areas, those areas being mobility, defense, and healing. If we had good heals or an instant heal that procced from something controllable than I could understand the shitty mobility, or if we had good defensives like two bubbles, 3 bops, and a freedom (warriors have 3 leaps, 2 charges, and heals) than I could understand the lack of mobility there as well. We don't have any of that though, 1 bubble (once we use it, that's it it's over can't use it again and by the time it comes off CD we'll most likely be dead already) bops (same thing as bubble) a freedom thats on the same tier as a speed boost, both aren't great at all. The freedom has a long cd, and the horse is able to be slowed and stunned. We need improvements in at least one of these areas. For heals, flash of light is our only baseline heal and it can only be casted, no team is going to allow that, especially if you're the target. We can talent WoG, but then we lose out on better talents for a heal that should already be baseline. I'd love to be able to have a heal that I can dump my HoPo into if I need to, but it should be baseline.

[Ulthane]

Making judgment a buff would be a huge boon for us because it would make target switching less punitive for situations like (this guy is at 30%, GET HIM), because we could turn and just dump a Templar's Verdict.

But barring that, they could also make mastery just increase the damage of Divine Storm. I think it's probably easier to do the buff part, but I'm unsure they want us being versatile with target switching (but honestly if we don't have mobility, we NEED to be able to switch targets fluidly because our uptime won't allow us to "set up" much).

Probably worth mentioning that if we can't have mobility, we definitely need powerful anti-mobility. If you recall originally Rogues had very poor mobility (Sprint on 3 min CD was it, along with Vanish for roots), but crippling poison was just incredibly strong if they could actually reach you. If we're going to have trouble catching people, they should be in deep crap if we do, and not just from damage. It should be really hard to get away.

I think the blues already stated they didnt want it to be a buff :<

[Taeldorian]

I think the blues already stated they didnt want it to be a buff :<

Probably, and we need to state why having it as a debuff is stupid. We need to explain how it's clunky mechanically, and why it feels wrong thematically. This expansions main focus for classes is to make sure they are all distinctive, and yet we ended up with the exact same mastery the arms warriors had. Again, this isn't nearly enough to make me even lean away from paladin, but we definitely need to point out why having it as a debuff isn't beneficial at all. Unless they buff mass judgement so it's useful on cleave fights/aoe with the debuff than it'll be crap.

If they do end up making mass judgement worth it, than judgement can remain a debuff. Just need a way to apply the debuff/spread it to other targets so we don't end up in the same spot ele shamans were in for a long time with target swapping. The situations are a bit different, but they needed to wait for flame shock to come off cd before hitting the next target to do dps, therefore target swapping became a huge issue for them. I see similarities here, but if mass judgement actually works than it'll be alright.

[Ulthane]

Probably, and we need to state why having it as a debuff is stupid. We need to explain how it's clunky mechanically, and why it feels wrong thematically. This expansions main focus for classes is to make sure they are all distinctive, and yet we ended up with the exact same mastery the arms warriors had. Again, this isn't nearly enough to make me even lean away from paladin, but we definitely need to point out why having it as a debuff isn't beneficial at all. Unless they buff mass judgement so it's useful on cleave fights/aoe with the debuff than it'll be crap.

If they do end up making mass judgement worth it, than judgement can remain a debuff. Just need a way to apply the debuff/spread it to other targets so we don't end up in the same spot ele shamans were in for a long time with target swapping. The situations are a bit different, but they needed to wait for flame shock to come off cd before hitting the next target to do dps, therefore target swapping became a huge issue for them. I see similarities here, but if mass judgement actually works than it'll be alright.

They could use the "seal" logic with it.

Judgment unleashes the seal buffing you?

The judgment fixes go as following.

-Judgment Buff
-Judgment duration increased greatly
-Judgment no cd
-Judgment a buff with increased duration

Take your pick.

[Taeldorian]

They could use the "seal" logic with it.

Judgment unleashes the seal buffing you?

The judgment fixes go as following.

-Judgment Buff
-Judgment duration increased greatly
-Judgment no cd
-Judgment a buff with increased duration

Take your pick.

Honestly, judgement as a buff that applies to us seems to be the most logical choice. As previously stated though, if mass judgement gets tuned correctly than we don't have to worry about judgement being a debuff or buff, because on cleave/aoe fights we can just pick that talent and spread the debuff, making target swapping/aoe a lot more fluid.

For PvP having judgement be an undispellable buff on ourselves would be great because if you need to target swap to someone whose low, you can use a finisher right away, rather than waiting for judgement in order to do appropriate damage.

[Ulthane]

Honestly, judgement as a buff that applies to us seems to be the most logical choice. As previously stated though, if mass judgement gets tuned correctly than we don't have to worry about judgement being a debuff or buff, because on cleave/aoe fights we can just pick that talent and spread the debuff, making target swapping/aoe a lot more fluid.

For PvP having judgement be an undispellable buff on ourselves would be great because if you need to target swap to someone whose low, you can use a finisher right away, rather than waiting for judgement in order to do appropriate damage.

The only, ONLY way that it as a debuff can even work is going to be the following.

-Judgment has to hit hard, HARD.
--All of our abilities need to hit hard.
-The debuff needs to have 100% uptime.
-AoE needs to be buffed to compensate. Like even with Judgment debuff our Divine Storm would need to be buffed to where its stronger at 2+ targets regardless.

Otherwise, buff.

[ruiizu]

The only, ONLY way that it as a debuff can even work is going to be the following.

-Judgment has to hit hard, HARD.
--All of our abilities need to hit hard.
-The debuff needs to have 100% uptime.
-AoE needs to be buffed to compensate. Like even with Judgment debuff our Divine Storm would need to be buffed to where its stronger at 2+ targets regardless.

Otherwise, buff.

I'm still not sure why they wouldn't want to make Judgment give us a buff. I think maybe the "intention" is to try to create engaging gameplay, but as a whole most of us agree that it really isn't engaging at all. There aren't really "decisions" to be made; you need to Judge whenever it's up to get the most out of your Holy Power (this is a major problem when combined with a damage window), but if you generate Holy Power too fast, then Judgment's CD interferes with your ability to use attacks effectively.

But since we're probably stuck with the mastery, we should keep campaigning to make it a buff. Just like how Combo Points eventually became buffs, so too should this kind of thing. Yes, it IS possible to just make Mastery buff Divine Storm, if they really want to retain the target switching penalty, but why? If we're slow moving juggernauts, we should really be able to cause some harm if someone is near us.

I'm just rambling at this point though. Where they're going, I can't promise I'll follow.

[Ulthane]

I'm still not sure why they wouldn't want to make Judgment give us a buff. I think maybe the "intention" is to try to create engaging gameplay, but as a whole most of us agree that it really isn't engaging at all. There aren't really "decisions" to be made; you need to Judge whenever it's up to get the most out of your Holy Power (this is a major problem when combined with a damage window), but if you generate Holy Power too fast, then Judgment's CD interferes with your ability to use attacks effectively.

But since we're probably stuck with the mastery, we should keep campaigning to make it a buff. Just like how Combo Points eventually became buffs, so too should this kind of thing. Yes, it IS possible to just make Mastery buff Divine Storm, if they really want to retain the target switching penalty, but why? If we're slow moving juggernauts, we should really be able to cause some harm if someone is near us.

I'm just rambling at this point though. Where they're going, I can't promise I'll follow.

Oh I totally agree with you, 100%. It would make it more of a unique mechanic rather than that of a Arms warrior rip off. Think if they actually extended the duration they would have an Inquisition mechanic without it being Inq but instead Judgment for a buff. A mastery that actually buffs a simpler Inq gameplay.

-Judgement: Increase damage by a greater amount, applies buff that lasts 20 - 30 seconds.

Talents like Greater Judgment could be tuned instead of cleave damage it causes your Judgment to grant holy power and have a lower cd.

Your talent row would look like this.

-The Fires of Justice: Crusader strike has 1 additional charge in addition to current effect.
-Zeal: Now deals holy damage and stacks haste up to 3 times.
-Greater Judgment: Lower CD and Judgment now grants Holy Power.

100 row
-Divine Purpose: As is or what i threw in earlier as a middle ground.
-Holy Wrath: 30 sec cd, cant be interrupted, can use while moving.
-Hammer of Wrath: Replaces Judgment. Deals additional damage based on missing health of target. When used your mastery increases.

[Deleted]

1.Judgement debuff applying to us as a buff rather than a debuff to our target. This would make our mastery fluid, and less like an arms warrior. I feel like this is mandatory and a really good fix to the judgement issue while also addressing the feeling of arms warrior mastery. This is really the last thing I see that could help ret, other than this were in a pretty good place pve wise.
[...] it's clunky mechanically, and why it feels wrong thematically. This expansions main focus for classes is to make sure they are all distinctive, and yet we ended up with the exact same mastery the arms warriors had.

Exactly THIS is the kind of comments devs want (and should) read. It's short, informative, shows the personal opinion of the player(s), highlights problems and conflicts in a "humble" way and the most important part: it only casually mentions turning the debuff to a buff at the beginning but concentrates on strong arguments speaking against the debuff version.
Just wanted to say that.

It seems getting the devs to acknowledge and implement suggestions has turned to something like politics over the years...if your arguments are strong and comprehensible enough without criticizing the "general opinion" they'll be recognized, otherwise you're out of the game - unless you're damn rich and try to throw loads of money at them.

[v1perz53]

Man, while I personally would prefer Judgment be a buff on you with the same idea, I honestly would prefer current iteration over no CD 100% uptime debuff. Burst window at least has the possibility of rewarding good play (and penalizing bad play or target swaps) but a maintenance debuff is just a thing you do to keep your damage at base level and can only ever penalize you, never reward you, plus is incredibly boring. Personal preference if they HAVE to keep it as a debuff on the mob would be to give it a charge system. That way, you can use one as you normally would but have one charge banked for target swaps, and if you need you can use both charges for an extended burst window. Honestly, Judge suffers from almost having too SHORT a CD, in that you can just about play only using finishers during Judge window. It might end up playing a bit better if you used finishers outside Judge vs inside maybe in a 1:2 ratio or something, but that leaves other issues with the mastery. Obviously none of above addresses AoE issues, which are kind of a separate problem, but what can you do.

[Hofflerand]

This may not be my ideal greater blessings design but if Wisdom (wow, that buff) and Kings are actually competitive then I'm sold. It's not straight utility but flexibility can be useful. I'm happy Blessings of Justice is gone as this hybrid aspect is good only in moderation, and I actually approve of combat-locking so long as the design continues to be any combination of three blessings (leapfrogging blows).

Equality's a little bit less situational now that it can be used with Forbearance and therefore has synergy with Divine Intervention. Divine Purpose is a great addition because Ret needed the option to talent into more RNG to keep the rotation from growing stale.

This patch tries to address Greater Judgment's infinite Judgment windows but with enough haste they'll still be nearly that. Why not have Judgment apply to four targets at the baseline and redesign GJ to another CS talent? However they go about it, Judgment uptime should be increased only via haste.

[Morally Grey Storm]

if GBoW/GBoK are competetive, then our damage will suffer.
This is indeed great design, as for utility, you must pay in kind. For example have your total dps be cut by 10%.
That is very balancest.

Equality is a little less situational now, as it is even more unusable, unviable and unbelievably awful for anything regarding dragonslaying.
So yeah, this is great aswell.

Baseline procs are for pussies and cool guys talent into rng because set rotation are already fun and great.
So hooray for DP, at least a single descent talent there.

[Ulthane]

Exactly THIS is the kind of comments devs want (and should) read. It's short, informative, shows the personal opinion of the player(s), highlights problems and conflicts in a "humble" way and the most important part: it only casually mentions turning the debuff to a buff at the beginning but concentrates on strong arguments speaking against the debuff version.
Just wanted to say that.

It seems getting the devs to acknowledge and implement suggestions has turned to something like politics over the years...if your arguments are strong and comprehensible enough without criticizing the "general opinion" they'll be recognized, otherwise you're out of the game - unless you're damn rich and try to throw loads of money at them.

Pretty much >< its become a massive game of tug of war with them and that just doesnt feel right.

[Ciric-Wildhammer]

Pretty much >< its become a massive game of tug of war with them and that just doesnt feel right.

Who got money and supports the idea of a gap closer? Any takers?

[Reghame]

The only problem i have with the turn judge into a buff thing is that we have seen this before. i also think blizzard is keeping us away from the buff mentality because the last time we were given a buff to maintain, rets bitched about it for entire expansions. (yes i know INQ costed holy power, but judge costs tons of GCDs too so the difference is the same overall and honestly, 3 HP a minute is nothing compared to using 6+ GCDs a minute on upkeeping a buff)
i just dont see the debuff as a problem. I dont think our AOE is honestly going to be terrible, we have all the tools there, but the damage needs to be higher. our cleave however because of the judge debuff makes it potentially really strong and this is why i dont see the need to even change it.

[ruiizu]

The only problem i have with the turn judge into a buff thing is that we have seen this before. i also think blizzard is keeping us away from the buff mentality because the last time we were given a buff to maintain, rets bitched about it for entire expansions. (yes i know INQ costed holy power, but judge costs tons of GCDs too so the difference is the same overall and honestly, 3 HP a minute is nothing compared to using 6+ GCDs a minute on upkeeping a buff)
i just dont see the debuff as a problem. I dont think our AOE is honestly going to be terrible, we have all the tools there, but the damage needs to be higher. our cleave however because of the judge debuff makes it potentially really strong and this is why i dont see the need to even change it.

Judgment does damage though. It's different because Inquisition did nothing. If Inquisition had caused us to radiate damage while active or did something other than "just a buff," it would have been a lot more popular. Judgment giving us a buff is different because it also delivers the pain when you use it.

[Teleros]

Judgment does damage though. It's different because Inquisition did nothing. If Inquisition had caused us to radiate damage while active or did something other than "just a buff," it would have been a lot more popular. Judgment giving us a buff is different because it also delivers the pain when you use it.

I think this argument is only really valid if Judgement does good damage, otherwise it's a case of "why do I NEED to tickle the enemy before using TV?" ... which isn't really all that different to the complaints voiced over Inquisition, when you get right down to it.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Colossus Judgement of Lothar's Might being a self-buff would solve our current issues regarding:
a) AoE
b) target switching
c) not at all engaging talent Empowered Judgement of Turaliyions Lothar(of Might)

So no, won't happen.

[Alindra]

Judgment does damage though. It's different because Inquisition did nothing. If Inquisition had caused us to radiate damage while active or did something other than "just a buff," it would have been a lot more popular. Judgment giving us a buff is different because it also delivers the pain when you use it.

What I thought was worse was that it "felt" like an empty GCD. Unlike all our other abilities, Inquisition only had a spell effect, no character animation. I think it would have felt a lot better if our characters did something (omni spell animation, or perhaps the kneel like we do with Holy Avenger).

Anyways, I'm not sure exactly how Blizzard can properly tune our AoE if they're hellbent on keeping Judgment (mostly) single target. If they keep Judgment spreading, then it will be the best AoE option since it will directly scale Divine Storm's (and Judgment's) damage. If they remove Greater Judgment and just tune Divine Storm to hit harder, then as mastery increases, the difference between TV and DS will decrease.