[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

On top this is a ranged class which makes is a lot easier in terms of not clumping up as a group like melee and still doing dmg if you have to move around to avoid mechanics.

I am not sure if I understood you right, but did you just say you can dps on balance druid while moving? It's possible, if you get time to pool enough AP to be able to use global on starsurge when needed to move, but with NB you don't even have to refresh dots. In WoD it was easier to pool up 3x starsurges ready for movement and refresh your dots, with right preparation you could move for 4globals + you had roar (which you had to use in fights like archimonde for your self and the raid group).

And for the comparison; I have raided on melee aswell, and usually I can dps the target with 100% uptime, tho I know there are melees who have really hard times positioning their selves to be able to be in the hitbox. Like I am on melee dpsing the boss, and guild mate yells that "I can't hit the boss, move him!" to tank and still; I am dpsing the boss on melee range and I am like "WTF dude, come the position I am on..." and he is like "Ohh..".

[DDM]

Yes, this is just a very tiny point overall and it is very situational.
I raided the whole addon as Fury and was most of the time able to dps the boss while moving, but there are times where it may be hard.
In my raid we do have a lot of melees, which makes it i.e. a bit complicated on Myhtic Tyrant with all the fire patches.
And you can dot the boss before some moving is incoming and you can also pool some AP. So technical, it is easier on a ranged to still do some dps than on a melee. If i lose contact to the boss as a melee, i do 0 dmg and with all the aoe effects, which is definitly a point as you should avoid them.

But as i already said, thats not a big point, just an addition to the other points which are way bigger.
And i don't want to say fury is the worst regarding to survival in raids, but balance is definitely not the worst (by ease).


And in legion i will presumably main my Boomkin, so it is not whining about fury

[Lucrece]

What you forgot is the health pool of a fury warrior to compensate for the increased damage uptake, and the amount of self healing a fury warrior does...

[Kyanion]

And i don't want to say fury is the worst regarding to survival in raids, but balance is definitely not the worst (by ease).

Then who is the worst spec by survivability, self healing, defensive cds and so on? All I know is that Barkskin + Guardian OR Resto Affinity and Renewal (which gives up mobility options) are not really a strong trio of defensives and healing. I think someone might say switch into bear + frenzied regen but I'm not really sure if I even count that one very much since you are doing no damage of note while in that form.

[Deleted]

Yes, this is just a very tiny point overall and it is very situational.
I raided the whole addon as Fury and was most of the time able to dps the boss while moving, but there are times where it may be hard.
In my raid we do have a lot of melees, which makes it i.e. a bit complicated on Myhtic Tyrant with all the fire patches.
And you can dot the boss before some moving is incoming and you can also pool some AP. So technical, it is easier on a ranged to still do some dps than on a melee. If i lose contact to the boss as a melee, i do 0 dmg and with all the aoe effects, which is definitly a point as you should avoid them.

But as i already said, thats not a big point, just an addition to the other points which are way bigger.
And i don't want to say fury is the worst regarding to survival in raids, but balance is definitely not the worst (by ease).


And in legion i will presumably main my Boomkin, so it is not whining about fury

I remember Mythic Tyrant melee struggle, at some point when boss was farmed, I actually stood in melee range on my balance druid, so if I got that black circle aoe thingy I didin't have to move; less movement more dps. It was easy after players learned that they wait 2 fire patches to spawn under them -> side step and repeat, melees just had l2p issues with it tho it was really easy mechanic to do even if 15 raid members were on melee range, the size on fire patch was so small so it was just 1yd left 1yd right sidestepping. Problem at progress was that melees did run around like headless chickens trying to avoid fires (l2p issues). Melees could do what they did on Kargath mythic; stand on one stack and move left, right, left right when 2x fire patches under them.

As I said; balance druids doesn't have to refresh dots, this means that only global they can use to move is SS, and now while pooling A LOT of AP is pretty time consuming I would say that in perfect scenario you can move during 2x globals, but usually you can use only 1 global for movement since you can't keep your AP over 80 on whole fight (because even if you had AP at cap; 100 minus 40 equals 60). So even when playing perfectly balance druids have really hard times minxmaxing the damage when moving.

- - - Updated - - -

Then who is the worst spec by survivability, self healing, defensive cds and so on? All I know is that Barkskin + Guardian OR Resto Affinity and Renewal (which gives up mobility options) are not really a strong trio of defensives and healing. I think someone might say switch into bear + frenzied regen but I'm not really sure if I even count that one very much since you are doing no damage of note while in that form.

On Archimonde Mythic with chains and wrought of chaos at same time the balance druids needed external defensive cd's to stay alive. On our raids it was default that Sacs were used to balance druids on chains when wrought was up. Balance druid had to use barkskin, go on bear form etc to stay alive with sac. Now we have 10% flat damage taken reduce which is really good, but I still feel like chain + wrought combo can kill me pretty easily through barkskin and bear form.

[DDM]

What you forgot is the health pool of a fury warrior to compensate for the increased damage uptake, and the amount of self healing a fury warrior does...

I have to admit, i forgot about the health pool. The self healing was mentioned, but still, you have to be on the boss to get it (don't know how bossfights in legion look like and how this works out).


I just wanted to say, that boomkin is definitely not the worst class/spec by ease in terms of survivability. I don't know how good/bad other classes are because i'm only interested in maining warrior or druid but it is not as horrible as said in the first quoted post.

[Deleted]

I have to admit, i forgot about the health pool. The self healing was mentioned, but still, you have to be on the boss to get it (don't know how bossfights in legion look like and how this works out).


I just wanted to say, that boomkin is definitely not the worst class/spec by ease in terms of survivability. I don't know how good/bad other classes are because i'm only interested in maining warrior or druid but it is not as horrible as said in the first quoted post.

So you compared boomkin and fury and then said boomkin isin't worst of all. How you still explain why balance druids have worst defensive cd's, atleast had in WoD.

"On Archimonde Mythic with chains and wrought of chaos at same time the balance druids needed external defensive cd's to stay alive. On our raids it was default that Sacs were used to balance druids on chains when wrought was up. Balance druid had to use barkskin, go on bear form etc to stay alive with sac. Now we have 10% flat damage taken reduce which is really good, but I still feel like chain + wrought combo can kill me pretty easily through barkskin and bear form."

[Lucrece]

I have to admit, i forgot about the health pool. The self healing was mentioned, but still, you have to be on the boss to get it (don't know how bossfights in legion look like and how this works out).


I just wanted to say, that boomkin is definitely not the worst class/spec by ease in terms of survivability. I don't know how good/bad other classes are because i'm only interested in maining warrior or druid but it is not as horrible as said in the first quoted post.

If you don't have near 100% uptime on a boss as melee, you need to L2P. I've mained windwalker monk and enhancement shaman for the entirety of MoP and WoD and all this QQ about melee disadvantage is such hyperbole, melee have it a lot easier in many ways.

[Deleted]

@DDM that comparison is biased af. You completely ignore the fact that the increased max HP and bloodthirst healing more than makes up for the 20% (don't kid yourself you'll be using warpaint) more damage taken. Besides, you do have the option to /cancelaura Enrage should you wish to take reduced damage (yes it is a dps loss, but so is going bear form. If you know wtf you're doing as a boomkin you'll be using Resto affinity, because the healing from that is going to beat the 10% DR from bear affinity in 9/10 cases. Also, armor from bearform is completely irrelevant 99.9% of the time (fun fact, boomkin form gives the same amount of armor).

I'll admit Fury defensives is very weak too, but your comparison is beyond terrible.

[Alame]

I keep waiting to warm up to Balance and it's just not happening. How you guys can say this is miles better than WoD boomkin is totally, totally beyond me.

Also, the fact that you have to re-apply the BotA buff and incur the cooldown every time you die is awful design. Did not one at any point stop to think "Hey, if I want to be in BotA:A after I die I physically can't for 15s?

[Cyous]

I keep waiting to warm up to Balance and it's just not happening. How you guys can say this is miles better than WoD boomkin is totally, totally beyond me.

Also, the fact that you have to re-apply the BotA buff and incur the cooldown every time you die is awful design. Did not one at any point stop to think "Hey, if I want to be in BotA:A after I die I physically can't for 15s?

Because people have a varied sense of "fun." If you don't like it, try something else, or not at all. That's on you.

[Lucrece]

I keep waiting to warm up to Balance and it's just not happening. How you guys can say this is miles better than WoD boomkin is totally, totally beyond me.

Also, the fact that you have to re-apply the BotA buff and incur the cooldown every time you die is awful design. Did not one at any point stop to think "Hey, if I want to be in BotA:A after I die I physically can't for 15s?

I'm surprised the current state of BotA constantly wearing off at every instance switch or when you die hasn't garnered more complaints in the beta forums.

The 15 sec cd imposed on it was bullshit to begin with.

[Crewsix]

I keep waiting to warm up to Balance and it's just not happening. How you guys can say this is miles better than WoD boomkin is totally, totally beyond me.

Also, the fact that you have to re-apply the BotA buff and incur the cooldown every time you die is awful design. Did not one at any point stop to think "Hey, if I want to be in BotA:A after I die I physically can't for 15s?

Completely agree on the BotA buff being lost on death and incurring the cd. They should reduce the cd or at the very least completely get rid of it out of combat.

I've been having fun with FoE on beta where the moon spells allow for decent uptime. Without that spell it is more or less the same thing as WoD to me.

[Mastamage]

Because people have a varied sense of "fun." If you don't like it, try something else, or not at all. That's on you.

Having to reapply BotA after death has absolutely nothing to do with "fun". It's an annoyance that's not needed. Blizzard shit all over Balance with their changes. It's an abomination.

[Lucrece]

Having to reapply BotA after death has absolutely nothing to do with "fun". It's an annoyance that's not needed. Blizzard shit all over Balance with their changes. It's an abomination.

Could always be worse. We could be feral druids (which are worse than ebola to play), or warlocks who lost 3 baseline abilities to make 3 recycled talent rows out of those pruned abilities LOL.

[Kyanion]

Could always be worse. We could be feral druids (which are worse than ebola to play), or warlocks who lost 3 baseline abilities to make 3 recycled talent rows out of those pruned abilities LOL.

Yeah I don't get it. It feels like a few separate teams worked on classes and some came out seeming really fun (frost mage, ele shammy) and some became shells of what they used to be able to do (moonkin, feral).

[Juvencus]

Yeah I don't get it. It feels like a few separate teams worked on classes and some came out seeming really fun (frost mage, ele shammy) and some became shells of what they used to be able to do (moonkin, feral).

Which is why I switched to Havoc DH. Been ages since I last enjoyed running HFC, even from the bottom of the meters.

Tbh I don't find Moonkin all that bad right now, just uninteresting. I'm expecting it to be worse once the SoC and last-tier haste are lost at 110.

[Cyous]

Having to reapply BotA after death has absolutely nothing to do with "fun". It's an annoyance that's not needed. Blizzard shit all over Balance with their changes. It's an abomination.

QoL fixes are just QoL. The fundamental gameplay is fun. Methodical, but fun.

[Lucrece]

Which is why I switched to Havoc DH. Been ages since I last enjoyed running HFC, even from the bottom of the meters.

Tbh I don't find Moonkin all that bad right now, just uninteresting. I'm expecting it to be worse once the SoC and last-tier haste are lost at 110.

DH, shaman, DK's all came out really well in design and gameplay.

Druids, warlocks, and warriors came out easily the worst.

[Mace]

DH, shaman, DK's all came out really well in design and gameplay.

Druids, warlocks, and warriors came out easily the worst.

i'm sorry, but I disagree, it may be because your favourite was moonkin? but i found it one of the more interesting specs, - i have done all 35, well 34 of the specs throughout beta, and had a chance so far to play about a thrid of them in live, and while i am finding some a little bit more fun than others, i wouldn't say druids , locks and warriors came out easily the worse, warriors are one of my fave specs, as are balance druids - but each to his own

now at 110, when it gets competitive and the minor details matter, i may find it different and get more irritable about a lot more smaller things, but till then, they're actually all roughly close to each other, and balance has a bit more depth than most