[Balance] Legion Discussion

[snaxattax]

oh, thought that starsurge was 60 ap like starfall. rip me, but I'm still skeptical of natures balance actually competing with stellar drift as-is. definitely agree with the poster who said that stellar drift should be on the lvl 100 tier - cast on the move is really quite strong.

also something that could make astral communion more interesting would be to have it reduce the cast time of full moon instead of just having it be just +resource - or add that to astral communion as a passive and leave it on the 100 tier, I don't know. doesn't look like it will stay viable for long compared to blessing of the ancients, or then if we end up with extremely high resource generation a very high uptime collapsing stars.

[huth]

The problem with Moon Moon is that you need to have the Artifact to get it. Since you can be level 100 without having Legion(and thus, unable to access the artifact), you'd end up with a talent that simply doesn't do anything.

[Sunfyre]

You don't take it to tank, you take it for the 10% dmg reduction.

I've never been a fan of things like that. If 10% is enough to keep you alive, but just barely, you probably did something stupid and failed a mechanic that really should have killed you. If you're taking it just to reduce healer load, I'd think that Ysera's gift under resto would be more beneficial since it fires on other people when you're at full health. 10% damage reduction is only really useful when you're actually taking damage, the rest of the time that ability is giving you zero worth. Looking at logs, I notice Ysera's gift actually does a metric crap ton of healing that you end up not really noticing.

And feral swiftness will be a DPS increase, which I'd rather have over damage reduction.

[Keiyra]

I've never been a fan of things like that. If 10% is enough to keep you alive, but just barely, you probably did something stupid and failed a mechanic that really should have killed you.

Its during early progression, when everyone is undergeared (especially healers) and less experienced with the fight - that surviving a mechanic with extra DR that otherwise would've killed you - is when that talent is most beneficial since it cuts down (potentially) on those early progression wipes...unless you raid with people who never make mistakes during progression, in which case lucky you

That being said - I actually agree with your post in general - once a fight has been "learned" and those near death moments are less crucial/common - yeah yseras or +15 move speed are generally more handy. (now only if we could take all 3 passives!)

[Nerxyrall]

oh, thought that starsurge was 60 ap like starfall. rip me, but I'm still skeptical of natures balance actually competing with stellar drift as-is. definitely agree with the poster who said that stellar drift should be on the lvl 100 tier - cast on the move is really quite strong.

I dont think the "cast on the move"-part will be that useful. When i recall Cyos Video corectly the increased Radius wasnt that big and i dont think it would push your dps in any really meaninful way. The few cast you get extra off, could have probaly been SSs(or other instants) with correct ressource managment.

If i think HFC Mythic, maybe Manno and Archi (havent done this fights on mythic yet so no real idea) but otherwise i dont see anywhere, where i would be inside starfall and need to move. Maybe first boss, maybe velhari p2,3 (if two target starfall would be a dmg increase ...or something)

The Starfall Dmg increase on the other Hand would make it probaly mandatory for most fights.

[Sunfyre]

Its during early progression, when everyone is undergeared (especially healers) and less experienced with the fight - that surviving a mechanic with extra DR that otherwise would've killed you - is when that talent is most beneficial since it cuts down (potentially) on those early progression wipes...unless you raid with people who never make mistakes during progression, in which case lucky you

That being said - I actually agree with your post in general - once a fight has been "learned" and those near death moments are less crucial/common - yeah yseras or +15 move speed are generally more handy. (now only if we could take all 3 passives!)

Well, wouldn't the smart heal from Ysera's Gift still be more beneficial since it's not only going to help heal you up, and take load off healers, but continue to heal other's up (smartly, ish) as well? The damage reduction is only actually providing #worth when only you are actively taking damage..

[huth]

I'd say it strongly depends on the fight, and what your healers are struggling with. When you have a mechanic like Curse of the Legion to deal with, being able to survive that single hit is worth more than being able to heal it back up.

Still concerned about Wrath's cast time, though. Even without Starlord, we're looking at a measly 15% haste to cap during Heroism/Lust, and with Starlord, it's less than 5%.

Add Moon and Stars to the mix and we're dealing with some significant capping issues during burst.


Edith: Not sure where WoWhead is getting the info, but it now shows the Scythe's third relic as being Arcane again. All three other specs get Life as their third, leading to Resto also having a double.

[Nerxyrall]

Still concerned about Wrath's cast time, though. Even without Starlord, we're looking at a measly 15% haste to cap during Heroism/Lust, and with Starlord, it's less than 5%.

Add Moon and Stars to the mix and we're dealing with some significant capping issues during burst.

/sign

and which stats should we use then.... Haste easy to cap. Crit nearly no synergie whatsoever(besides scythe of the stars).
Mastery + Versi -->YAY

Was really hoping crit would become an intresting stat in some way.

I didnt play through Cata and Mop. But werent we using Starfire instead of Wrath in Wotlk because of caping issues?!? (at least during heroism). Dont thing its a solution and a bad design choice, but back to the roots^^

[Kyanion]

Well, wouldn't the smart heal from Ysera's Gift still be more beneficial since it's not only going to help heal you up, and take load off healers, but continue to heal other's up (smartly, ish) as well? The damage reduction is only actually providing #worth when only you are actively taking damage..

Don't underestimate the small little things we get with the forms as well. I feel like Rejuve while in a nerfed form in WoD has a chance of being worthy to use. I've no idea how good Regrowth would be but it gives us some options in staying alive outside of just damage redux. Also it might even shine with the 50% more healing during innervate artifact ability.

[Alame]

yes but how often in raids do you have 0 movement for 20+ seconds?

Quite often if you are predicting mechanics and positioning & moving to minimize required movement.

refreshing dots and casting starsurge are nice, but if you can control the positioning of the boss, you lose literally zero dmg from movement. since we're capped at 100 AP, it's unlikely that we'll get to cast 2 starsurges back to back.

Anticipating when you're going to be forced to move and dumping empowerment charges + banking AsP so that you can fill 2 GCDs with Starsurge while moving is going to be one of the tricks separating average & elite Boomkins.

reducing the movement penalty (or differential between stellar flare and natures balance) would come down to being able to bank and manage your owlkin frenzy procs.

There is no way to 'bank' OKF procs without simply not using cast-time spells between acquiring the proc and when you want to use it. This is going to be a massive DPS loss if you try to do this.

I'm not saying there isn't a significant dps increase when you just look at things gcd per gcd, but in practical terms you're so unlikely to see a benefit unless we absolutely can't just hang out close enough to the boss that we can starfall right on the edge of the boss's hitbox and move around casting wrath/starfire.

It's entirely unnecessary using the movement prediction I mentioned above. You're paying 60 AsP to do 226.8% SP damage and cast while moving for 8s, compared to 40 AsP for 350% SP + empowerment stacks. Unless you are forced to move for longer than 4-5 GCDs (2x Starsurge, 1x Moonfire refresh, 1x Sunfire refresh, 1x New Moon if available) you have MORE than enough tools to fill movement with instant-cast GCDs and simply do not need to pay MORE AsP for LESS damage. Mechanics that force you to move for longer than 5 consecutive seconds usually mean there's something going on that makes damage in that period irrelevant anyway. Even with Nature's Balance and no need for dot refreshes you still fill 2-3 GCDs with ease.

still think the idea that you're going to have every single talent in every single row completely interchangeable is unreasonable.

100% correct.

having strong, defined, and sensible niches for every talent is just as good.

That's what you have on that tier. Nature's Balance for single-target, Stellar Drift for multi-target, and Treeants for solo play / niche scenarios

I haven't mained a moonkin since cata, but honestly the use of talents in every row except for incarnation has been good. weren't treants (at the time they were on the incarnation line) used for pure single target fights? I vaguely remember moonkins using them on early IJ.

We spent the majority of WoD using a single combination of talents. It got to the point where I stopped bringing tomes to raids.

also you're just incorrect about shooting stars being the only multitarget option. fast burst aoe would definitely not use shooting stars (something like ball lightning or mannoroth imps) because your dots wouldn't tick enough. that's where warrior of elune (assuming it's made off gcd) would be useful.

Burst AoE has never been our niche and in the situation you describe we will most likely not choose our talent based on ball lightning / Imp style adds because other classes are simply much better at dealing with those without sacrificing power in other areas.

[huth]

I didnt play through Cata and Mop. But werent we using Starfire instead of Wrath in Wotlk because of caping issues?!? (at least during heroism). Dont thing its a solution and a bad design choice, but back to the roots^^

AFAIR, yes. And it's worse this time, since Solar Wrath is much stronger single target than LS. (LS does 70% SP/s, Wrath does 85.73%)

[snaxattax]

Burst AoE has never been our niche and in the situation you describe we will most likely not choose our talent based on ball lightning / Imp style adds because other classes are simply much better at dealing with those without sacrificing power in other areas.

it's was the moonkin niche in wrath and cata with the old starfall and mushroom detonate. and WoE could give you flexibility in that regard? like just because it's not going to make you the best burst cleave in your raid, it's not a bad thing if there's a talent that lets you help with it if it's what your raid needs.

also starfall causes everything it hits to take an extra 45% dot damage (30% base plus 15% extra from artifact) during its 8s duration - it's a really small delta between starsurge and starfall right now. being able to dps while doing kiting mechanics is pretty awesome, I mean if there's an opportunity to be able to handle an extra class of raid mechanics with little to no dps hit I'm all for it.

[Cyous]

Does Shooting Stars have a graphic at the moment? I would guess they would give it the SoO 2p projectiles, blue when it procs from Moonfire and orange when it procs from Sunfire.

Yes. It's a cube right now. (no, it doesn't have a model yet).

- - - Updated - - -

yes but how often in raids do you have 0 movement for 20+ seconds? refreshing dots and casting starsurge are nice, but if you can control the positioning of the boss, you lose literally zero dmg from movement. since we're capped at 100 AP, it's unlikely that we'll get to cast 2 starsurges back to back. reducing the movement penalty (or differential between stellar flare and natures balance) would come down to being able to bank and manage your owlkin frenzy procs. I'm not saying there isn't a significant dps increase when you just look at things gcd per gcd, but in practical terms you're so unlikely to see a benefit unless we absolutely can't just hang out close enough to the boss that we can starfall right on the edge of the boss's hitbox and move around casting wrath/starfire.

still think the idea that you're going to have every single talent in every single row completely interchangeable is unreasonable. having strong, defined, and sensible niches for every talent is just as good. I haven't mained a moonkin since cata, but honestly the use of talents in every row except for incarnation has been good. weren't treants (at the time they were on the incarnation line) used for pure single target fights? I vaguely remember moonkins using them on early IJ.

also you're just incorrect about shooting stars being the only multitarget option. fast burst aoe would definitely not use shooting stars (something like ball lightning or mannoroth imps) because your dots wouldn't tick enough. that's where warrior of elune (assuming it's made off gcd) would be useful.

Movement in raids ~ if it's planned, it's easy to manage. If it's RNG, then you adjust for it. Keep in mind, you're burning 60 AsP for Starfall and you have to place it on top of yourself (it will not reach the boss and yourself if you stand 40 yards back).

The difference between Nature's Balance and Stellar Drift will be if you can actually make use of Starfall. In most cases, you will not be able to (in a raid setting).

You mistake my opinion -- I don't mind having winning/losing talents. However, when a single talent is the only viable choice for an environment, it's not good. We've always ran Incarnation, Nature's Vigil or Euphoria. We only swapped to Heart of the Wild because HOTW+Tranq was ridiculously overpowered. WOD showed us that even talents that come up within 5% of Incarnation or Euphoria will lose out. In MOP, SOTF and FON simply sucked for multi-target encounters, or encounters with sustained burn phases. In WOD, nothing changed that fact. In WOD, Euphoria won due to QOL reasons -> Stellar Flare took an eternity to get going, and the damage wasn't great. Euphoria's change to the Eclipse timing made it very good for AOE, because you had could easily AC into Solar if you needed to, then Moonfire spam on all targets -- this was the shortcoming for Stellar Flare :: Too much time needed to get things rolling. Balance of Power was there if you needed the DOT damage, but Euphoria or Stellar Flare was often better. :: FWIW: In MOP, the only time you took FON was to test out UVLS...and it wasn't worth it.

Fine, it's the only viable option for anything where enemies live longer than a Bladestorm's duration, in which case your damage in negligible. It doesn't change the fact that Shooting Stars in the only viable option for multi-target (barring Bladestorm-friendly burst).

[Alame]

also starfall causes everything it hits to take an extra 45% dot damage (30% base plus 15% extra from artifact) during its 8s duration - it's a really small delta between starsurge and starfall right now. being able to dps while doing kiting mechanics is pretty awesome, I mean if there's an opportunity to be able to handle an extra class of raid mechanics with little to no dps hit I'm all for it.

Moonfire & Sunfire: 18.9% SP increase / tick on 4 ticks for 75.6% additional SP each


So 226.8% from Starfall itself + 2x 75.6% additional DoT damage for a total of 378% SP

Vs.

350% from Starsurge (already beats Starfall + dot increase) + 70% additional SP from Lunar Strike empowerment + 51.44% SP from Solar Wrath Empowerment for a total of 471.44% SP

~20% additional damage from Starsurge which is not a 'really small delta' at all. If you correct for AsP spent that balloons to ~47%. Excluding basic rotation and looking ONLY at additional damage provided by AsP spenders, Starsurge does 47% MORE damage than Starfall.

If you want to take Stellar Drift in single target fights so you can jump around freely that's up to you. Cyous & I are much more interested in min-maxing and this is not a small separation. This is a major DPS loss.

[Prag]

Sorry to ask such a simple question, but I didn't catch Blizzcon and didn't see any official posts. Are there any plans for other playable races?

[Xandrigity]

Sorry to ask such a simple question, but I didn't catch Blizzcon and didn't see any official posts. Are there any plans for other playable races?

No, last thing a blue said was the only race class combo they were planning on releasing is the gnome hunter.

[huth]

Only new class/race combo so far is Gnome Hunters. No known plans for anything else.

Moonfire: 18.9% SP increase / tick on 4 ticks for 75.6% additional SP
Sunfire: 9.45% SP increase / tick on 4 ticks for 37.8 additional SP

Last i looked, Sunfire and Moonfire do identical damage, only difference being the splash on Sunfire and duration.

Doesn't change Starfall being Multitarget only(which is fine IMO), but lets not get stuck with incorrect numbers.

Fine, it's the only viable option for anything where enemies live longer than a Bladestorm's duration, in which case your damage in negligible. It doesn't change the fact that Shooting Stars in the only viable option for multi-target (barring Bladestorm-friendly burst).

More of a problem of WoE just not being very good or useful, though. Starlord is a clear ST pick, Shooting Stars obviously for multidotting, so we need something for burst AoE here, and WoE just doesn't cut it.

[Alame]

Last i looked, Sunfire and Moonfire do identical damage, only difference being the splash on Sunfire and duration.

Doesn't change Starfall being Multitarget only(which is fine IMO), but lets not get stuck with incorrect numbers.

That awkward moment when you use 1s as sunfire tickrate instead of 2s....

Anyway edited to correct. Conclusion still stands.

[Deleted]

Well, wouldn't the smart heal from Ysera's Gift still be more beneficial since it's not only going to help heal you up, and take load off healers, but continue to heal other's up (smartly, ish) as well? The damage reduction is only actually providing #worth when only you are actively taking damage..

The problem with Ysera's Gift is that the majority of the healing happens when you don't need it, where it will just result in the healers doing more overhealing. As Keiyra said, progression is all about reducing the number of wipes, and the usual cause of wipes is deaths to burst damage, not sustained. Ysera's gift heals for 4% of your hp every 5 sec, which means it needs ~12.5 sec to break even with 10% dmg reduction if you take 100% of your HP pool in damage. It is very rare that you die without taking more than 100% of your hp pool in damage over 12.5 seconds.

Movement speed really isn't that amazing when we have the option to choose a blink. Don't get me wrong, I'd 100% take the 15% movement speed for rankings (since as you say it is the only one that can be a dps increase in the talent row), but it is such a minor increase if you know how to time your movement correctly that I'd take the damage reduction over it for progress any day.

[dark666105]

Essentially the same reasoning why one would take Renew over Yseras gift. While gift is good it is usually too slow for most recovery situations.