[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

Can you share this log? Or atleast give us a little more info: What size raid? How often did you 'soak' the charge? How long was your best pull with these numbers? Etc.

I personally used collapsing stars. My best uptime was 27 seconds in 1 use, and it dealt 4.35million in that time. I was using it differently than our other druid, he used it earlier, but had less uptime, however he got a second use in before we wiped where I didn't because of the later cast. Our fight length was 3:42, had I got a second CS use in, im confident I'd have rekts most people in our raid, I was sustaining 115k, but burst for 300k+ from CS alone.

CS is VERY punishing. If you're at 65 energy say, and start to cast full moon and don't finish it before you drain to 5 astral power, a kitten dies. It also costs you 7-10 seconds of uptime. While I don't think CS should have 100% uptime, currently I feel it needs to drain AP slower, or we need to generate AP faster. CS hits so hard, that I feel I can't waste globals reapplying dots while CS is active because I need to generate AP via wrath spam. This feels clunky and counter productive.

Maybe CS isn't ideal for single target, and on multi target dots will gen more AP, but again, if you only have 2-3 targets council style, I'm not sure dots will sustain it, and needing to reapply that many dots will give no time for wrath.

Also maybe CS should deal damage for 5 seconds before draining AP. In some cases you time things wrong, and it drops off before you can land full moon or astral communion. Obviously that's me playing bad, but using a 2min cd to benefit 6 seconds of damage sucks. It goes without saying, you shouldn't play like that, but it feels way too harsh.

Collapsing stars needs to reset on combat end/start or boss resets.

Sorry about the CS whine, but it hits so hard it must be good, but even in the best scenario it takes too much setting up for 25% uptime.

I do not have Warcraftlogs for my own fight, we used Skada instead, this is however one of the logs of another Boomkin i looked at https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mhYDd#fight=20

I use the talents

15: Starlord
75: Incarnation
90: Blessing of the Ancients (with Blessing of Elune)
100: Natures Balance

I didnt use CS since I couldnt comfortably have a good uptime on it, I would however assume that in later tiers and higher ilvl, CS would get better, maybe if you build a haste spec around, especially if you can get Lunar Strike to about 1.5 sec cast time and Wrath to maybe 1 second or less.

I soaked the second charge and we go to about 75-80% of the boss. We had 2 Tanks, 2 healers and 9 DPS (Bad composition but healers simply dont seem to exist in Alpha atm :P)

[xtramuscle]

I do not have Warcraftlogs for my own fight, we used Skada instead, this is however one of the logs of another Boomkin i looked at https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mhYDd#fight=20

I use the talents

15: Starlord
75: Incarnation
90: Blessing of the Ancients (with Blessing of Elune)
100: Natures Balance

I didnt use CS since I couldnt comfortably have a good uptime on it, I would however assume that in later tiers and higher ilvl, CS would get better, maybe if you build a haste spec around, especially if you can get Lunar Strike to about 1.5 sec cast time and Wrath to maybe 1 second or less.

I soaked the second charge and we go to about 75-80% of the boss. We had 2 Tanks, 2 healers and 9 DPS (Bad composition but healers simply dont seem to exist in Alpha atm :P)

Those attempts are really quite short, considering they lust on pull, I think the druids numbers should be quite alot higher.

[Cyous]

Anything under 3:30sec is a dead log imo ~ too much variation and it doesn't actually provide anything meaningful, except how well it bursts -- which isn't a secret.

[Nightrage]

Hey guys! I've been wandering this thread and I'm still a bit confused of what talent setup we are using for each situation (in the latest build). For single-target, I've tried using Starlord (T1), Incarnation (T5), Blessing of Elune (T6) and Collapsing Stars (T7 - to sustain a short burst when Full Moon is ready to use). For multiple-targets, I thought on using Shooting Stars and Stellar Drift, although I'm not sure if it's a good deal since Starfall still cost too much Astral Power and lasts for a very short time... Also, I think that having to dot everything (and refreshing) depending on the number of targets can be very annoying since it leaves you no time to cast anything and you have to count on Owlkin Frezy's procs. Future changes may come, like Owklin Frenzy not being wasted on Lunar Strikes affected by Warrior of Elune's stacks, then I don't know if I'd have to use it instead of Starlod for fights with a lot of movement.
Finally, I'd like to ask what kind of opener do you use for each talent setup (not using CS and using CS). Do we ever cast Lunar Strike or just use it with Owlkin Frenzy?

[dark666105]

I see our mastery affecting our empowerments as something of a logistical issue with how easy they want classes to be to understand. Say you have empowerments up and you get a mastery proc, are those empowerments that are then up going to benefit from said mastery proc? or if you get a mastery proc and then hit starsurge are those empowerments going to benefit from it when the proc goes away? what about having a proc you hit starsurge to get buffed empowerments and then the proc goes away and you hit starsurge again for a 2nd stack of empowerments. does the strength of those new empowerments overwrite the buffed ones? seems very messy.

[wing5wong]

Say you have empowerments up and you get a mastery proc, are those empowerments that are then up going to benefit from said mastery proc?

yes

or if you get a mastery proc and then hit starsurge are those empowerments going to benefit from it when the proc goes away?

no

what about having a proc you hit starsurge to get buffed empowerments and then the proc goes away and you hit starsurge again for a 2nd stack of empowerments. does the strength of those new empowerments overwrite the buffed ones? seems very messy.

empowerments dont store your mastery values at the time you got them, unless im missing something here

[dark666105]

Well the tooltips for the buff not dynamically updating are misleading then.

[huth]

I see our mastery affecting our empowerments as something of a logistical issue with how easy they want classes to be to understand. Say you have empowerments up and you get a mastery proc, are those empowerments that are then up going to benefit from said mastery proc? or if you get a mastery proc and then hit starsurge are those empowerments going to benefit from it when the proc goes away? what about having a proc you hit starsurge to get buffed empowerments and then the proc goes away and you hit starsurge again for a 2nd stack of empowerments. does the strength of those new empowerments overwrite the buffed ones? seems very messy.

It's pretty easy if it doesn't snapshot. You just get the benefit to your empowerments when you get a proc, and lose it again when the proc runs out. What happens when your overwrite or stack procs is then no different from what happens to a single proc.

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Well the tooltips for the buff not dynamically updating are misleading then.

It's not exactly new, either. Don't rely on (de)buff tooltips.

[lappee]

It's pretty easy if it doesn't snapshot. You just get the benefit to your empowerments when you get a proc, and lose it again when the proc runs out. What happens when your overwrite or stack procs is then no different from what happens to a single proc.

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It's not exactly new, either. Don't rely on (de)buff tooltips.

Thats actually false in the current build.

Empowerments snapshot mastery buffs you have and they also keep the mastery buff as long as you have stacks.
Say you have no empowerments up and get a mastery buff. You cast a Starsurge granting you 1x lunar and 1x solar empowerments. Now the mastery buff falls off and you cast another Starsurge, you're now at 2 stacks of empowerments but since neither of the stacks have diminished their original buffed mastery will be up. Basically on ST you could roll either lunar or solar empowerment with mastery buff all fight.

This greatly increases the value of Mastery as a stat and the skill cap there is to playing a moonkin.

[huth]

Thats actually false in the current build.

It's not false, it just doesn't apply. I made no statement as to what happens if it does snapshot.

[lappee]

It's not false, it just doesn't apply. I made no statement as to what happens if it does snapshot.

True, thats my bad. Just quickly read you were agreeing with wing5wong and explained what actually happens

[wing5wong]

I doubt itwill stay like that if thats the case, although it would add a nice level of depth

[huth]

Still, i think it shouldn't snapshot or explicitly state that(and how) it does, mostly for the sake of consistency.

[xtramuscle]

Thats actually false in the current build.

Empowerments snapshot mastery buffs you have and they also keep the mastery buff as long as you have stacks.
Say you have no empowerments up and get a mastery buff. You cast a Starsurge granting you 1x lunar and 1x solar empowerments. Now the mastery buff falls off and you cast another Starsurge, you're now at 2 stacks of empowerments but since neither of the stacks have diminished their original buffed mastery will be up. Basically on ST you could roll either lunar or solar empowerment with mastery buff all fight.

This greatly increases the value of Mastery as a stat and the skill cap there is to playing a moonkin.

Does this hold true if you spend the wrath buff but maintain a lunar strike empowerment? Does depleting only 1 buff at a time allow you to roll the buffed empowerment, or does both drop once you lose one or the other?

[lappee]

Does this hold true if you spend the wrath buff but maintain a lunar strike empowerment? Does depleting only 1 buff at a time allow you to roll the buffed empowerment, or does both drop once you lose one or the other?

Just one drops as they're individual buffs and have no interaction with each other

[xtramuscle]

Just one drops as they're individual buffs and have no interaction with each other

Wouldn't be able to keep stacks rolling like you suggested on single target, would have to be a multi dot fight, with the majority of AP gen'd by dots. Still will add depth if it goes live, but likely is just an oversight, and not working as intended.

[lappee]

Wouldn't be able to keep stacks rolling like you suggested on single target, would have to be a multi dot fight, with the majority of AP gen'd by dots. Still will add depth if it goes live, but likely is just an oversight, and not working as intended.

To keep both rolling yeah you'd need adds for ShS to generate enough AP but on single target you can roll either Lunar or Solar Empowerment without losing the extra mastery all fight.

[Madus]

Thats actually false in the current build.

Empowerments snapshot mastery buffs you have and they also keep the mastery buff as long as you have stacks.
Say you have no empowerments up and get a mastery buff. You cast a Starsurge granting you 1x lunar and 1x solar empowerments. Now the mastery buff falls off and you cast another Starsurge, you're now at 2 stacks of empowerments but since neither of the stacks have diminished their original buffed mastery will be up. Basically on ST you could roll either lunar or solar empowerment with mastery buff all fight.

This greatly increases the value of Mastery as a stat and the skill cap there is to playing a moonkin.

Hmm, while this looks pretty nice and skillful, its like zero chance to stay like that. Compared to other specs they went overcomplicated with our Mastery.

[lappee]

Hmm, while this looks pretty nice and skillful, its like zero chance to stay like that. Compared to other specs they went overcomplicated with our Mastery.

Its not that complicated tbh and it requires you to have a mastery proc trinket to even work as long as empowerments are removed upon entering boss combat (or boss respawn is > 40 seconds).

Even if we were able to use it the dps benefit from mastery proc trinket wouldn't be that huge. Benefits from going from full mastery gear to 0 mastery gear however would be more serious.

[xtramuscle]

To keep both rolling yeah you'd need adds for ShS to generate enough AP but on single target you can roll either Lunar or Solar Empowerment without losing the extra mastery all fight.

On single target that'd mean casting lunar strike to build enough AP in order to SS and then spend one solar wrath. While the mastery buff might be nice, I'm not sure the AP gen we'd lose from casting lunar strike over solar wrath would even be worth it?

***Something perhaps Cyous or yourself could math out***

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Edit: Probably makes more sense to spam wrath, keeping lunar strike at 1+ empowerment all fight, making use of owlkin frenzy procs, this would actually be a net gain me thinks.