[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

Do you have some stats to backup that statement? Since i didnt found this playstyle much enjoyable, basicaly forcing me to not use stfl and fon...

Stats? no. Do you have stats that prove me wrong? I am simply going by what I hear here, on the druid Discord, and other druids that I often talk to.

Also you should always use Starlord and INC with ED. Might want to have a look at my guide

[Irefusetodie]

Right. And this is also good because now we wont be focused around haste breakpoints anymore.

I would rather have haste breakpoints than have no synergy from 3 of 4 secondary stats. We gain nothing but passive damage from crit, vers, and mastery. At least with haste breakpoints you had something to gear towards. While I agree that using a piece of gear 40 ilvls lower just because it has haste on it isn't good for the game, I can also argue that having absolutely no synergy with 75% of secondary stats isn't exactly good either.

But do note that IFE is relatively weaker in 7.1.5 to both non legendary Moonkin and Oneth's intuition moonkin due to changes to Stellar Drift and Stellar Flare. Relatively weakening Incarnation is relatively weakening the ring.

IFE is far and away the best legendary with these ED changes. IFE is a damage increase regardless of whether you're STing or AoEing. OI and the Stellar Drift change is very good but I highly doubt we'll ever use Stellar Flare outside of a council style fight.

Last, I have very little sympathy with those lamenting play stale. Dreamweaving and FoE based playstyle are very very similar.

They're quite literally nothing alike. How on earth is a rotation that relies on a 90 second CD similar to something that has no CD? Furthermore, weaving spells is nothing like spamming spells to generate as much AsP as possible.

And given the buffs to FoE and FoN, if you're heavy haste/crit and relatively light mastery, FoE is going to be a good sized single target increase over starsurge—especially those who are good at syncing the ability with Crit/Damage/etc.

Again, what you're saying is laughably wrong. This isn't opinion. You will never use FoE outside of M+ with our 4 piece.

[thedeisel]

Stats? no. Do you have stats that prove me wrong? I am simply going by what I hear here, on the druid Discord, and other druids that I often talk to.

Also you should always use Starlord and INC with ED. Might want to have a look at my guide

He's saynig he likes FoN and StFlare so he didn't like that ED forced him out of those.

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IFE is far and away the best legendary with these ED changes. IFE is a damage increase regardless of whether you're STing or AoEing. OI and the Stellar Drift change is very good but I highly doubt we'll ever use Stellar Flare outside of a council style fight.

If you don't have the ring? Probably a ST increase at this point. Again, sims (if there are any good druid modules written and maintained now with cyous gone) or spreadsheets are what will answer that for us. It's gotten quite a bit stronger in terms of Damage/AP compared to what it used to be.

I never said IFE is not the absolutely dominant legendary. It is. I said the gap between it and OI and it and no legendary is smaller now that incarnation is relatively weaker to other options and starfall is stronger. ED was so comically far and above even IFE on single target though.

I agree with Gebuz' general point that our legendary balance is not better than it used to be. Now, though, they can at least balance moonkin reasonably for single target without worrying about how ED was going to break things for those with it.

They're quite literally nothing alike. How on earth is a rotation that relies on a 90 second CD similar to something that has no CD? Furthermore, weaving spells is nothing like spamming spells to generate as much AsP as possible.

They're the same in the ways I laid out. Unlike our base rotation they require thinking about your Moon charges instead of emptying them mindlessly, Pooling your AP in a thoughtful way rather than just refilling and emptying your bar mindlessly, and maximizing hard casts in a specific window. In other words, they change our base rotation in a similar way.

Again, what you're saying is laughably wrong. This isn't opinion. You will never use FoE outside of M+ with our 4 piece.

Our new 4pc does help starsurge now but you only need go back a few pages to find the math in a post of mine to show you it's a single target increase now depending on your Mastery levels. The math was done before 4pc change, to be sure.

[Madus]

Stats? no. Do you have stats that prove me wrong? I am simply going by what I hear here, on the druid Discord, and other druids that I often talk to.

Also you should always use Starlord and INC with ED. Might want to have a look at my guide

Well if we dont need stats, what i heard most druids like ED just because it help them feel relevant in dps and not bcs they like playstyle. They are also pretty vocal on forums about dps nerf instead of "gameplay" nerf. ED making mkins even more turreting like they are is shitty too.
Ofc that you are locked to Starlord/Inc even with new ED, thats why they should completly remove it and add it as talent...

[SafariDiscoLion]

Let's at least wait for the entire PTR stuff to be out before we gloom and doom it.

Do people like you not realize that the whole point of a public test realm is to test things and get feedback? Blizz is testing something. The backlash is their feedback.

[PickleballAce]

Nerfing ED is only "wrong" if there's no compensatory buff to help a spec that relied on it to be competitive.

Legendaries should be a good boost to performance and maybe a minor gameplay change. They shouldn't totally prop up a spec in one or more areas, and force them into mechanics that aren't supposed to be a thing anymore (required talents and hard haste breakpoints).

If a spec is only viable with (at least) one or two legendaries, then the status quo has to change. The spec has to be able to stand on its own without orange gear, or it is fundamentally broken.

[Praxis-bt]

Mind you i have a very small sample size (about 5 mythic raiding level druids) but we all like-love the play-style (idea of it for those that don't have it yet) that it adds. the fact that its like a mini s2m without the death is exciting, being able to pre-plan for movement, trying to line it up with other damage increases/procs, and even a little bit of butt clenching that you wont get targeted with mechanics make it FAR more interesting than just the boring builder/spender you get otherwise.

Hopefuly this playstyle will at least be implimented as a gold trait or talent (even without large dps gains). it will be sorely missed.

[Deleted]

people pretending like ED wasn't an absolutely massive increase over IFE single target are bananas.

Not true. Look at sims, look at logs. It is ahead by 1-2% percent points.

The easy, straightforward increase

What. You're trolling right? ED rotation is siginficantly harder than the base rotation.

On top of that it led to degenerate play (wasting Lunar Empowerments)

I'd argue empowerment magement is significantly harder with ED than without. You find pressing a specific spell harder than not pressing that single spell that will overcap you? seems highly unlikely.

a highly latency sensitive playstyle (a general nono for blizz), and hard haste break points (another nono for blizz).

Absolutely true. That is the downsides of the rotation, playing with massive spell queue delay is extremely annoying.

IFE by contrasts is a benefit you get more out of by playing moonkin well. Generate more AP = get more CD reduction.

Again, ED rotation is harder, why shouldn't it be more rewarding?

That's not to say that IFE is now balanced or anything like that (though it's better balanced relative to the rest than ED was).

I completely disagree, IFE is looking to be #1 for all situations. ED was ONLY the best for single target. Hell, I'd swap my ED for a IFE any day of the week.

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Well if we dont need stats, what i heard most druids like ED just because it help them feel relevant in dps and not bcs they like playstyle. They are also pretty vocal on forums about dps nerf instead of "gameplay" nerf. ED making mkins even more turreting like they are is shitty too.
Ofc that you are locked to Starlord/Inc even with new ED, thats why they should completly remove it and add it as talent...

Okay, well lying isn't constructive. If you don't want to take my word for it that other people thinks the playstyle was enjoyable, then atleast accept that I found it enjoyable.

Sorry I misread your previous post, yes, being forced into specific talents is not ideal, and I would much prefer that other legendaries favored different talents, instead of all legendaries favoring the same talents (Incarnation & Starlord). But that is really not an issue specific to ED.

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Here are my thoughts on the change: https://gebuz.wordpress.com/2016/12/...mcatcher-nerf/
Constructive feedback is appreciated as always.

Whether you agree with me or not, I would encourage you to post your feedback in the feedback thread on the official forums, and let the developers know how you feel about it.

US: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20752349289
EU: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614455825

[huth]

Your Blog link got shortened to uselessness somewhere.

[Deleted]

Your Blog link got shortened to uselessness somewhere.

thanks, fixed it.

[thedeisel]

Not true. Look at sims, look at logs. It is ahead by 1-2% percent points.

Logs are pretty weird for sorting by legendary. At some percentiles, for example ED is ahead of IFE on odyn. At others it's the other way. At just about all of them Symbiote is top. In some cases Oneth's Intuition registers LOWER than having NO legendary. I don't really put much stock into that.

What. You're trolling right? ED rotation is siginficantly harder than the base rotation.

I didn't say it wasn't harder. It is! But it's not hard to alternate which filler you cast around starsurges. I mean, compared to picking up and mastering feral rotation both are pretty easy.

I'd argue empowerment magement is significantly harder with ED than without. You find pressing a specific spell harder than not pressing that single spell that will overcap you? seems highly unlikely.

It's not about being easy or harder. It's about being degenerate. It actively encourages you to waste resources. That's my only point.

I completely disagree, IFE is looking to be #1 for all situations. ED was ONLY the best for single target. Hell, I'd swap my ED for a IFE any day of the week.

I agree IFE is the best in all situations. And that's not good! But the way in which ED was such a massive increase was damaging for overall balance.

As I said in the other thread, I think the main difference between ED and IFE is that ED could push us from middle pack single target to the top end. That's an awesome feeling. IFE never had that effect single target. But worse, it's strength, in multi-target is a deep weakness for our spec. So, IFE picks us up from the bottom and moves us to the middle. That's not so good and it doesn't save a spec from the bench. ED did.

The main hope for moonkin is that now we get a better balanced spec in which our baseline single target dps isn't capped by the potential for a very high high end tied to a legendary.

[Deleted]

Logs are pretty weird for sorting by legendary. At some percentiles, for example ED is ahead of IFE on odyn. At others it's the other way. At just about all of them Symbiote is top. In some cases Oneth's Intuition registers LOWER than having NO legendary. I don't really put much stock into that.

True, sample size is too small. But sims have them very close too. Keep in mind that the one named Balance Druid is not NO legendary, it is ANY legendary. The other logs are any logs where the legendary was used (so all the logs using ED+IFE for instance would show under both of those and Balance Druid).

It's not about being easy or harder. It's about being degenerate. It actively encourages you to waste resources. That's my only point.

You're right, it feels unintuitive. That was some of my original feedback aswell. Issue is, both IFE and OI, and multidotting while still using SS as a spender also results in wasting empowerments. I think this is a more general problem with way too high empowerment uptime (which is hard to reduce without messing with mastery), and no way to dumb empowerments (I want Alpha Stellar Flare back :<). ED does highlight that issue though.

The main hope for moonkin is that now we get a better balanced spec in which our baseline single target dps isn't capped by the potential for a very high high end tied to a legendary.

I can definately follow that mindset, but I think you overestimate how much ED is actually ahead of IFE single target. The difference is so small that you'd likely need hundreds of pulls on a boss to notice the difference.

[Hellshout]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...-death-of-fun/

They changed it again to 7 instead of 10.

[MV Kaa]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...-death-of-fun/

They changed it again to 7 instead of 10.

GG. We did it reddit. I feel this is a smarter move and it also brings the wrist when it comes to bis legendarys

[lappee]

Stats? no. Do you have stats that prove me wrong? I am simply going by what I hear here, on the druid Discord, and other druids that I often talk to.

And what I hear people find the most enjoyable to be able to do max dps - no matter the rotation.
I personally like the playstyle of FoE, its harder than ED and I've heard other people like it too they're just not using it because its sub-par dps. It must be the most enjoyable rite?


I've yet to hear any arguments that support the reasons behind ED playstyle being "fun" other than it being the best ST dps out there. Please show me any and "I just like it" posts are useless to me. (This whole thing is pretty useless now since the latest change but I'm still curious)

[Cowa]

So with ED now reducing it by 7 vs the 10. What does this rotation actually look like?

[Cyous]

So with ED now reducing it by 7 vs the 10. What does this rotation actually look like?

The same thing, but not as long.

[MV Kaa]

The same thing, but not as long.

Which I kinda like, because with SWx2, SS,LW, rotation, it goes on for a long time

[Madus]

And what I hear people find the most enjoyable to be able to do max dps - no matter the rotation.
I personally like the playstyle of FoE, its harder than ED and I've heard other people like it too they're just not using it because its sub-par dps. It must be the most enjoyable rite?


I've yet to hear any arguments that support the reasons behind ED playstyle being "fun" other than it being the best ST dps out there. Please show me any and "I just like it" posts are useless to me. (This whole thing is pretty useless now since the latest change but I'm still curious)

If ED effect was talent with subpar dps results, it would be trashed to afrika.

[Thirstytiger]

excluding new moon and half moon you can now only get 7 starsurges in before running out of AsP with the cost being reduced by 7 each time. If that was bumped up to 8 the numbers would still be the same, but could get more benefit out of weaving a half moon. If this was bumped up even further to 9, we would get only 9 starsurges out of the rotation (again excluding using half moons). This is a significant drop from 21 that we could do before. I like the direction they're taking. I think 9 would be plenty fair, dropping the starsurges by half, or they could just reduce the cost of starsurge and make it look a little better.