Hall of Shadows, the Rogue class order hall in Dalaran

[Deleted]

There were better known pirates to choose anyway wtf are pirates doing in flying city so far from their ships? It would be cooler if there would be some Pirate Den somewhere in Broken Isles which assassins and ninjas use as temporary use as base of operations instead of pirates going to the most non-pirate locations of all possible choices.

[Hitei]

There were better known pirates to choose anyway wtf are pirates doing in flying city so far from their ships? It would be cooler if there would be some Pirate Den somewhere in Broken Isles which assassins and ninjas use as temporary use as base of operations instead of pirates going to the most non-pirate locations of all possible choices.

How does that make any sense?

One spec doesn't fit well so move to a place where two specs don't fit well?

Also, Dalaran is directly above the ocean, and a shady sewer tavern is exactly where pirates would hang out when they go ashore for whores and alcohol.

If any spec doesn't fit the class hall, it's Sub, because the hall has no relation to the whole ninja idea, and pretty much no connection to the shadow element of the spec.

[Deleted]

How does that make any sense?

One spec doesn't fit well so move to a place where two specs don't fit well?

Also, Dalaran is directly above the ocean, and a shady sewer tavern is exactly where pirates would hang out when they go ashore for whores and alcohol.

If any spec doesn't fit the class hall, it's Sub, because the hall has no relation to the whole ninja idea, and pretty much no connection to the shadow element of the spec.

Ninjas are just asian themed assassins. That's why the distinction between sub and ass won't ever have much sense.

I thought that Dalaran is semi-open city and common pirates that wants a whores and drinks wouldn't ever be able to get . I mean ship captain or some powerful heroes that have access to flying mounts or teleportation are able to enter there but not some common pirates just to drink and fuck.

I understand that Broken Isles were forgotten by Alliance and Horde but pirates who are travelling for years between Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms, Kezan, South Seas might have some hideout there. Place where all their ships are docking. I wouldn't mind if class hall would fit only one spec and 2 other would be just guests. I wouldn' mind if there would be a pirate den in Broken Isles as well as I wouldn't mind if the main hall in Pandaria(if there would be class halls in MoP) would be a Ninja Temple.

I would rather have a hall related to one spec concept that some sewers that try to connect all three. Because that's how rogue organisation imo should work. A one headquarters in the middle of nowhere, where no1 would want to look for anything. Like Ravenholdt where rogues can chill, plan, everything, prepare, wait for contracts and train. And a web of smaller hideouts in every city(like Dalaran sewers, some pirate dens, etc.) where they would hide and prepare before and after mission.
In Pirate Den sub and ass representatives would be just guests. Guests that came to work together to fight Legion.

[Hitei]

Ninjas are just asian themed assassins. That's why the distinction between sub and ass won't ever have much sense.

I thought that Dalaran is semi-open city and common pirates that wants a whores and drinks wouldn't ever be able to get . I mean ship captain or some powerful heroes that have access to flying mounts or teleportation are able to enter there but not some common pirates just to drink and fuck.

I understand that Broken Isles were forgotten by Alliance and Horde but pirates who are travelling for years between Kalimdor, Eastern Kingdoms, Kezan, South Seas might have some hideout there. Place where all their ships are docking. I wouldn't mind if class hall would fit only one spec and 2 other would be just guests. I wouldn' mind if there would be a pirate den in Broken Isles as well as I wouldn't mind if the main hall in Pandaria(if there would be class halls in MoP) would be a Ninja Temple.

I think it carries distinction if you don't view Assassination as "generic assassin" and instead view it as a master poisoner/expert in hemorrhaging enemies--and then Sub as a "shadow warrior" which is basically what cinematic ninjas are.

Frankly I think a base on the Isles themselves would have been better too. Some long forgotten vault beneath in Suramar leading to a deadmines esque underground dock.

I would rather have a hall related to one spec concept that some sewers that try to connect all three. Because that's how rogue organisation imo should work. A one headquarters in the middle of nowhere, where no1 would want to look for anything. Like Ravenholdt where rogues can chill, plan, everything, prepare, wait for contracts and train. And a web of smaller hideouts in every city(like Dalaran sewers, some pirate dens, etc.) where they would hide and prepare before and after mission.
In Pirate Den sub and ass representatives would be just guests. Guests that came to work together to fight Legion.

But that logic applies just as much to Underbelly though.

It's just that rather than one headquarters in the middle of nowhere, it's one headquarters underneath a city where rogues can chill, plan everything, prepare, wait for contracts and train. The problem is that the implementation is shitty, but I'm sure it would have been equally bad with Ravenholdt as the location.

[Deleted]

But that logic applies just as much to Underbelly though.

It's just that rather than one headquarters in the middle of nowhere, it's one headquarters underneath a city where rogues can chill, plan everything, prepare, wait for contracts and train. The problem is that the implementation is shitty, but I'm sure it would have been equally bad with Ravenholdt as the location.

For me Underbelly is cool as hideout(such a hideout can be in every big city in Azeroth). Ravenholdt would be better as HQ imho. Enough free space to train, wait for job and chill. Place where you can hide w/o hiding in the shadows but in comfortable quarters in mansion in the middle of nowhere. The place w/o real metters, where rogues rest because no1 is looking for them there and near that place and do paper work(hide money, check contracts).

And my other thought being depandent on mage decisions. Srsly if mages will decide to retreat(or never decided to go above Broken Shore) then Underbelly looses most of its arguments(being close to action).

[Hitei]

For me Underbelly is cool as hideout(such a hideout can be in every big city in Azeroth). Ravenholdt would be better as HQ imho. Enough free space to train, wait for job and chill. Place where you can hide w/o hiding in the shadows but in comfortable quarters in mansion in the middle of nowhere. The place w/o real metters, where rogues rest because no1 is looking for them there and near that place and do paper work(hide money, check contracts).

And my other thought being depandent on mage decisions. Srsly if mages will decide to retreat(or never decided to go above Broken Shore) then Underbelly looses most of its arguments(being close to action).

Dunno, as an Alliance rogue, I'd rather be subject to mages deciding to retreat than subject to Sylvanas deciding she wants to push south across the river.

[Geckoo]

Frankly I think a base on the Isles themselves would have been better too. Some long forgotten vault beneath in Suramar leading to a deadmines esque underground dock.

Suramar would be cool. By far a better choice than Dalaran.

We could be right under their nose, hidden in plain sight... just as they claim, but in a place that has enemies.

And all the assets and art for that kind of class hall will already be present in the game, since they are already doing them for the city and raid.

[elfporn]

How does that make any sense?
If any spec doesn't fit the class hall, it's Sub, because the hall has no relation to the whole ninja idea, and pretty much no connection to the shadow element of the spec.

WHAT!!! you mean you dont like teenage mutant ninja turtles!?

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Actually, thinking on locations in broken isle, i like the idea of a class hall in that city which is shrouded in perpetual night, i forget which one it is.

Admittedly though, i'm not too miffed about the sewers either.

[noralya]

Watching Outlaw artifact previews is really disheartening, the class hall being a big part of why. I can't stand the whole Scrooge McDuckish goblins presence, it feels nothing like a rogue to me, and just has no visual interest at all, it's really lame.

I feel supremely let down, we, by far, have the worst class hall in my opinion.

[Xada]

Watching Outlaw artifact previews is really disheartening, the class hall being a big part of why. I can't stand the whole Scrooge McDuckish goblins presence, it feels nothing like a rogue to me, and just has no visual interest at all, it's really lame.

I feel supremely let down, we, by far, have the worst class hall in my opinion.

Easily, although you could make a case for Death Knights and Monks. I get it, but I would make the case that Acherus never got a lot of screentime and just needs touch ups and stuff, it's alright if they wanted something say Icecrown Citadel. Wandering Isle isn't bad, but wandering isle wasnt just monks, I can think of a few ideas for monk class halls, but they wouldn't be that different, blizz also probably thought it was a waste to let such an interesting place never get visited after leaving the isle.

[Deleted]

Easily, although you could make a case for Death Knights and Monks. I get it, but I would make the case that Acherus never got a lot of screentime and just needs touch ups and stuff, it's alright if they wanted something say Icecrown Citadel. Wandering Isle isn't bad, but wandering isle wasnt just monks, I can think of a few ideas for monk class halls, but they wouldn't be that different, blizz also probably thought it was a waste to let such an interesting place never get visited after leaving the isle.

Well, very rarely you can build organisation/place arround only one class. I would say hermetic class halls w/o presence of individuals of other classes looks not realistic. I mean all classes might need mages for portals and magic assistance and I wouldn't be surprised if there would be some rogue mage in rogue class hall. Also I can imagine that druids are also able to work as rogues(there were some spy druids in SI:7 I believe). Would be nice if there would be some warlock that would give them some information about Burning Legion.
The same is with Wandering Isle. There is some big society build arround monks and society needs more than just monks. Wandering Isle for monks is just like Dalaran for mages and thats good because this place got some cool background instead of appearing out of nowhere just to be a class hall.

[Xada]

Well, very rarely you can build organisation/place arround only one class. I would say hermetic class halls w/o presence of individuals of other classes looks not realistic. I mean all classes might need mages for portals and magic assistance and I wouldn't be surprised if there would be some rogue mage in rogue class hall. Also I can imagine that druids are also able to work as rogues(there were some spy druids in SI:7 I believe). Would be nice if there would be some warlock that would give them some information about Burning Legion.
The same is with Wandering Isle. There is some big society build arround monks and society needs more than just monks. Wandering Isle for monks is just like Dalaran for mages and thats good because this place got some cool background instead of appearing out of nowhere just to be a class hall.

I wouldn't mind having contacts of other classes checking in to deliver information to the heads of our organization. It's sneaky, it's underhanded, all while upholding a level of professionalism our class maintains. Have handlers whisk them in and out to let them know they are here on business. I would like Lord Jorach Ravenholdt coordinate all the operations and the rest advise before carrying out his will.

[Hitei]

I wouldn't mind having contacts of other classes checking in to deliver information to the heads of our organization. It's sneaky, it's underhanded, all while upholding a level of professionalism our class maintains. Have handlers whisk them in and out to let them know they are here on business. I would like Lord Jorach Ravenholdt coordinate all the operations and the rest advise before carrying out his will.

Ravenholdt being in charge makes even less sense than Garona.

[Xada]

Ravenholdt being in charge makes even less sense than Garona.

I guess being the Lord of the Assassins league doesn't count for shit.

[Hitei]

I guess being the Lord of the Assassins league doesn't count for shit.

It really doesn't.

Name one thing the "league" has ever done.

Oh wait, you can't because there's literally nothing they've ever done. As far as anyone knows, it's just what the Ravenholdt organization is actually called, in which case it's actually a league of mediocre thugs and thieves. Lets not forget that you used to "join" the league as a level 24 rogue. Consider that an indication of quality of people admitted into the league--no name thieves of minor accomplishment.

He has no place on a council leading the rogue fight against the Legion. Wrathion has done more with Ravenholdt's men in a couple years than Ravenholdt did in the decade before it.

Please explain to me how a minor human noble from a fallen kingdom who's notable accomplishment is grouping up a small band of thieves should be sitting on a council with equal footing to Mathias Shaw, commander of the entire SI:7 organization.

To be perfectly honest, Venessa did more with the Defias in the couple weeks after the Cataclysm than Jorach ever did with Ravenholdt.


This is why I detest Ravenholdt and argued against it as a class hall so much, beyond the fact that it is a terrible and boring location.

Ravenholdt is a no-name, unimportant, minor neutral faction that has never done anything beyond fighting the Syndicate and helping the player rogue kill a few Black Dragons. And really, most of the work there was done by the player and Wrathion. People just like the idea of Ravenholdt not the faction itself, they idealize it into exactly what the Uncrowned is--a vague organization that can pretend to be important by hiding behind the whole "We're mysterious and shadowy, so that means we've potentially assassinated hundreds of kings and brought down whole countries without anyone ever knowing, teehee" shtick. It really isn't any better writing than the Uncrowned.

Who has the league ever Assassinated? Hell, how many significant figures have ever even been assassinated? Llane is probably the only one of note, and that clearly had nothing to do with Ravenholdt. Regular assassinations generally fall into two categories:

1) Evil factions killing someone Horde/Alliance friendly (Garona, the unamed assassins in various dungeons, Asira Dawnslayer, etc)
2) "Assassinations" done by the players, (Read: All the named leaders in the various enemy factions that you've been sent to kill)

[Geckoo]

It really isn't any better writing than the Uncrowned

Both are bad writing because that kind of organization has never had any presence in the warcraft universe, both are a cliché that seems like a must have in this kind of fantasy. 'Assassin's league' also works as a reference to stuff from other fantasies that many times help to strenghten the whole class concept. So it's a bit unfair to judge the characters involved in those places when we barely had any lore with rogue related stuff that actually fits that kind of organizations.

The difference between the Assassin's league and the Uncrowned is that one was already here when we first arrived, it does have some lore related to it and it does have some characters related to it, so it's easier to believe and feel attached to such a name than to something that they just invented yesterday and try to sell it as something with a heavy old background while they mix characters that do not fit together.

I guess we can agree that both concepts have the same flaws and share the same problems.

Personally... back in august my first thought was Ravenholdt as class hall, and the player leading the Assassin's league. I can accept that they aren't using Ravenholdt, but why they are not using the Assassin's league and instead create... well, basically the same kind of thing... i really can't understand that one.

[Xada]

It really doesn't.

Name one thing the "league" has ever done.

Oh wait, you can't because there's literally nothing they've ever done. As far as anyone knows, it's just what the Ravenholdt organization is actually called, in which case it's actually a league of mediocre thugs and thieves. Lets not forget that you used to "join" the league as a level 24 rogue. Consider that an indication of quality of people admitted into the league--no name thieves of minor accomplishment.

He has no place on a council leading the rogue fight against the Legion. Wrathion has done more with Ravenholdt's men in a couple years than Ravenholdt did in the decade before it.

Please explain to me how a minor human noble from a fallen kingdom who's notable accomplishment is grouping up a small band of thieves should be sitting on a council with equal footing to Mathias Shaw, commander of the entire SI:7 organization.

To be perfectly honest, Venessa did more with the Defias in the couple weeks after the Cataclysm than Jorach ever did with Ravenholdt.


This is why I detest Ravenholdt and argued against it as a class hall so much, beyond the fact that it is a terrible and boring location.

Ravenholdt is a no-name, unimportant, minor neutral faction that has never done anything beyond fighting the Syndicate and helping the player rogue kill a few Black Dragons. And really, most of the work there was done by the player and Wrathion. People just like the idea of Ravenholdt not the faction itself, they idealize it into exactly what the Uncrowned is--a vague organization that can pretend to be important by hiding behind the whole "We're mysterious and shadowy, so that means we've potentially assassinated hundreds of kings and brought down whole countries without anyone ever knowing, teehee" shtick. It really isn't any better writing than the Uncrowned.

Who has the league ever Assassinated? Hell, how many significant figures have ever even been assassinated? Llane is probably the only one of note, and that clearly had nothing to do with Ravenholdt. Regular assassinations generally fall into two categories:

1) Evil factions killing someone Horde/Alliance friendly (Garona, the unamed assassins in various dungeons, Asira Dawnslayer, etc)
2) "Assassinations" done by the players, (Read: All the named leaders in the various enemy factions that you've been sent to kill)

I'll concede the Mathias Shaw > Lord Jorach Ravenholdt argument, I would choose him, but Shaw IS Alliance, blizzard and Horde faithfuls would have a stroke if you had him in charge. As for why Ravenholdt, I played during those times, it's really all we got. I can't really blame Ravenholdt for not doing shit in game because it's a bunch of pixels on a screen, I can blame blizzard for their lack of doing anything with it though. In beta it was there for a reason, hell, Garona was the grand master then. They clearly had a plan for it and it just got shelved, along with Garona till Cataclysm. I think a lot of us rogues who have been around since the beginning saw the class hall as a way for Ravenholdt to become what it was meant to be. Personally, I don't care for Ravenholdt manor itself being the class hall, fucker burnt down (lore wise), I just think Dalaran sewers does not encapsulate what the rogue class is as a whole, I said it earlier and I'll say it again, the current Rogue class hall feels like what someone who has never played a rogue in their life would design for rogues. An outsiders opinion, what someone who has died thousands of times to or played too much elder scrolls would make.

[Blayke]

I wasn't a ravenholt or riot guy. I didn't exactly like the idea of the sewers but I thought I'd wait and see.
It'd not good. It's definitely the worse class hall. We don't even get a place of our own, we just hide out in the mage's city... in a place
everyones been to before... . I would've loved a Gilneas hide-out. The architecture and the constant night would've been great.
it's coastal, too, so there could've been ships for the outlaws. There could've been forsaken alchemy junk for assassination. The generic atmosphere would've suited Sub'. I guess I'm biased cause im a worgen rogue but still...

This. I never gave a shit about Ravenholdt, and I had made my peace with the sewers, until I saw this post. Brilliant idea. Gilneas is an area that is both cool in and of itself, and is very under utilized. It has at least a tangential connection with our class. And it's far enough out of the way to be in keeping with the overall theme of the class. And, as the other poster mentioned, it's coastal. Who doesn't want to live on the water?

[jSewell]

Name one thing the "league" has ever done.

Wouldn't be too good of an assassin if everyone knew who he killed now, would he?

[Deleted]

I, too, was against sewers being our class hall, but i think most are missing the logic behind it.

Rogues uniting is anti-climatic, the only reason this is happening, is because of the Legion invasion. The mentality behind the creation of this hub, is not to have a common training ground that all rogues can share forever. It exists, simply to counter Legion.
And what would be the most efficient spot, for the gathering of rogues to occur, for the purpose of simply discussing tactics against the Legion?

I think that stealing an already established spot, in a flying city, while also being in contact with the mages, is the most efficient way to do so. Practical thinking; a mentality that all rogues share.

On the other hand, after watching footage of our class hall, i think that it does look disappointing; All that gold lying on the ground is just too cheesy, and opening a secret door to find all rogue leaders sitting behind a table is just too obvious.. they could have added additional rooms and space... make it look more official and serious.