Design Direction of Monk

[Dragon88]

While I've played Monk since its launch, my only true effort into learning the intricacies of the class have been into Windwalker. I started playing Mistweaver as a serious offspec this expansion. I just have one issue...

I've been producing results as a WW to compensate for all of the dramatic changes and perspective from the general community to always have a spot somewhere. But due to work and school I am moving closer to only playing one toon for Legion and am struggling with whether to stay on Monk (which I love lore/fantasy-wise) because in all 3 specs we seem to be losing the complexity and uniqueness.

I'm here asking for more educated opinions and comments on if my perspective is valid. I don't want to make a rash decision or freak out. I like being part of a small community of Monks, but to me it seems as if they're giving other classes toolkits that make ours feel watered down. I just lurk theory crafting and info sites to try and improve my play, never gathered much from other players, thanks for taking the time to respond to anyone who does.

[FayrenPickpocket]

Until we learn about the legion artifact trees, I can't really give you a full answer on how the class is going to be.

They want to buff our single target damage, but nerf SEF at the same time. By doing this, or single target damage will be higher, but SEF on 3 targets should still be strong. We're losing it on two target fights unless you need to cleave two things down equally. A case could be made for abilities like FoF and dragon storm kick which will deal extra damage to targets around you. It could be beneficial to use SEF even on 2 targets for these two abilities.

WW is moving away from a build and burst play style to a constantly changing ability rotation. Supposedly we are close to GCD capped, even in the first tier. We will be rewarded for using different abilities effectively, and depending on talent selection, punished if we mess up the essentially pre-defined rotation.

With the addition of dragon strike kick as a viable option (and my extreme disdain for serenity), the filling of chi wave or burst, and any potential artifact abilities we receive, it should be a decently smooth rotation.

Our CDs are much like everyone else's. Touch of Death and TEB are both oriented more for this play style through out the fight. In order to maximize our burst, we will likely want to keep our hit combo at 10 (if the talent is selected) going into our burst, rather than building it up mid CD.

All in all, if you're looking for a class that will have a pretty stagnant rotation and minimal Procs, it sounds like WW will be for you. Combo breakers will still exist, but it will be less important to hit them back to back, in risk of losing your mastery buff.

Also, if it takes less crit to make 1% than mastery, we will likely ignore mastery once again and the priority and talent selection will be dependant on that.

[Dragon88]

Until we learn about the legion artifact trees, I can't really give you a full answer on how the class is going to be.

They want to buff our single target damage, but nerf SEF at the same time. By doing this, or single target damage will be higher, but SEF on 3 targets should still be strong. We're losing it on two target fights unless you need to cleave two things down equally. A case could be made for abilities like FoF and dragon storm kick which will deal extra damage to targets around you. It could be beneficial to use SEF even on 2 targets for these two abilities.

WW is moving away from a build and burst play style to a constantly changing ability rotation. Supposedly we are close to GCD capped, even in the first tier. We will be rewarded for using different abilities effectively, and depending on talent selection, punished if we mess up the essentially pre-defined rotation.

With the addition of dragon strike kick as a viable option (and my extreme disdain for serenity), the filling of chi wave or burst, and any potential artifact abilities we receive, it should be a decently smooth rotation.

Our CDs are much like everyone else's. Touch of Death and TEB are both oriented more for this play style through out the fight. In order to maximize our burst, we will likely want to keep our hit combo at 10 (if the talent is selected) going into our burst, rather than building it up mid CD.

All in all, if you're looking for a class that will have a pretty stagnant rotation and minimal Procs, it sounds like WW will be for you. Combo breakers will still exist, but it will be less important to hit them back to back, in risk of losing your mastery buff.

Also, if it takes less crit to make 1% than mastery, we will likely ignore mastery once again and the priority and talent selection will be dependant on that.

I just wonder, why the dramatic turn in playstyle? Seems like we have gone from what you're describing, to the opposite for a while, and now we're returning.
I don't mind it as much as it seems, because I really do enjoy Monk more than any other class, but they keep giving vague explanations for major changes and consistency eludes the end result.

[Babylonius]

I just wonder, why the dramatic turn in playstyle? Seems like we have gone from what you're describing, to the opposite for a while, and now we're returning.
I don't mind it as much as it seems, because I really do enjoy Monk more than any other class, but they keep giving vague explanations for major changes and consistency eludes the end result.

I wondered why the dramatic change this tier. The 4pc and class trinket totally altered the WW playstyle and now they're just moving it back to what they had designed for most of WoD. Unfortunately people are used to a proc based playstyle so they may be upset that the playstyle is more predictable, forgetting all the complaining when we found out how proc based we were becoming.

[Slappadappa]

Aside from the differences in rotation, I personally am not a fan of the new SEF and TEB. Seems like they're removing some of the complexity of the class and in the case of the SEF change severely limiting playstyle options due to mandatory 3 clone auto aoe.

[Dragon88]

I wondered why the dramatic change this tier. The 4pc and class trinket totally altered the WW playstyle and now they're just moving it back to what they had designed for most of WoD. Unfortunately people are used to a proc based playstyle so they may be upset that the playstyle is more predictable, forgetting all the complaining when we found out how proc based we were becoming.

I'm honestly fine either way, as long as we remain a pretty active class in each spec. Their inconsistency in playstyles is what worries me, the seemingly endless tuning changes each tier (or when one item becomes the basis of our spec, i.e. RoR or current tier/class trinket) is ridiculous. Now I don't raid Mythic but I am consistently top 3 damage in any group I'm in but still have to argue just it get in. I feel like the back and forth "balancing" gives us an awful rep.

- - - Updated - - -

Aside from the differences in rotation, I personally am not a fan of the new SEF and TEB. Seems like they're removing some of the complexity of the class and in the case of the SEF change severely limiting playstyle options due to mandatory 3 clone auto aoe.

I agree with you completely. Those two changes were a little frustrating, hopefully artifact talents do something for us.

[Tradu]

I wondered why the dramatic change this tier. The 4pc and class trinket totally altered the WW playstyle and now they're just moving it back to what they had designed for most of WoD. Unfortunately people are used to a proc based playstyle so they may be upset that the playstyle is more predictable, forgetting all the complaining when we found out how proc based we were becoming.

Predictable is great, slow and predictable isn't(for WW, there's other specs like Feral where both slow and predictable is great). Hopefully they're going more back to how it was in SoO, but I doubt it considering how much they seem to like proc whack-a-moles(SDI+set bonuses this tier)

[Lucrece]

I prefer the change they are going for.

Our damage is way too dependent on TEB, where I feel like a balance druid with the eclipse mechanic where at some point I'm always gonna be at an all time low (when without brew, which people feel it's fine only because they don't realize the set bonus), and in the case of dungeons it's a garbage experience because unlike raids there is more downtime than the time we can build brew stacks for ideal continued damage. Which made WW monk kinda crappy for Challenge Modes where you want constant burst and steady damage in between pulls.

I also hope they do something about our AoE, because on more than 3+ targets it's just hopeless.

I also see they removed the stun off FoF, so I don't see why they can't reduce its cooldown, a 25 sec cd for a rotational damage ability feels way too long while you spend most of your time alternating between jab and blackout kick.

Also, I wish the Tigereye Brew stack duration was increased to 5-10 minutes ;(.

[Tradu]

I prefer the change they are going for.

Our damage is way too dependent on TEB, where I feel like a balance druid with the eclipse mechanic where at some point I'm always gonna be at an all time low (when without brew, which people feel it's fine only because they don't realize the set bonus), and in the case of dungeons it's a garbage experience because unlike raids there is more downtime than the time we can build brew stacks for ideal continued damage. Which made WW monk kinda crappy for Challenge Modes where you want constant burst and steady damage in between pulls.

I also hope they do something about our AoE, because on more than 3+ targets it's just hopeless.

I also see they removed the stun off FoF, so I don't see why they can't reduce its cooldown, a 25 sec cd for a rotational damage ability feels way too long while you spend most of your time alternating between jab and blackout kick.

Also, I wish the Tigereye Brew stack duration was increased to 5-10 minutes ;(.

Our damage being dependent on TeB is the cool, unique thing about WW(and I don't say that because we have stupidly high uptime with the current gear levels/tier set, TeB was one of my favorite things about WW in MoP as well, when TeB was actually something you had to line up with trinket procs etc), just like Eclipse was the cool thing about Balance that made it my favorite spec in Cataclysm(for many of the same reasons as TeB/WW) before they started ruining it with MoP/WoD(interested to see if the Legion one is going back to more what it was like in Cata). Other specs just press Recklessness or Rapid Fire or whatever and do some more damage, TeB has much more gameplay attached to it(building it, deciding when to spend it). And for a melee, WW isn't that bad for CMs tbh.

Agreed on AoE.

If they reduced the CD, they'd also have to nerf the damage to compensate, and I'd rather have that 25 second CD ability that does quite a lot of damage than what would basically be a channeled RSK.

Don't see why the duration matters, but I guess increasing it wouldn't hurt.

[Lucrece]

Our damage being dependent on TeB is the cool, unique thing about WW(and I don't say that because we have stupidly high uptime with the current gear levels/tier set, TeB was one of my favorite things about WW in MoP as well, when TeB was actually something you had to line up with trinket procs etc), just like Eclipse was the cool thing about Balance that made it my favorite spec in Cataclysm(for many of the same reasons as TeB/WW) before they started ruining it with MoP/WoD(interested to see if the Legion one is going back to more what it was like in Cata). Other specs just press Recklessness or Rapid Fire or whatever and do some more damage, TeB has much more gameplay attached to it(building it, deciding when to spend it). And for a melee, WW isn't that bad for CMs tbh.

Agreed on AoE.

If they reduced the CD, they'd also have to nerf the damage to compensate, and I'd rather have that 25 second CD ability that does quite a lot of damage than what would basically be a channeled RSK.

Don't see why the duration matters, but I guess increasing it wouldn't hurt.

Well, most balance druids, myself included, despised Eclipse and are not sad to see it gone ;p. My feeling is the same for TEB's reduced importance.

It's also great for PvP because building TEB in PvP is kinda dumb given that opponents are not dumb mobs and they do disrupt your rotations with CC or counter pressure, so stacking up brews takes even longer.

The monk thus has more steady damage that isn't neutered when people see "Oh, monk used brew, just cyclone him and he'll be back to hitting like a wet noodle for the next 30 seconds."

[Slappadappa]

I prefer the change they are going for.

Our damage is way too dependent on TEB, where I feel like a balance druid with the eclipse mechanic where at some point I'm always gonna be at an all time low (when without brew, which people feel it's fine only because they don't realize the set bonus), and in the case of dungeons it's a garbage experience because unlike raids there is more downtime than the time we can build brew stacks for ideal continued damage. Which made WW monk kinda crappy for Challenge Modes where you want constant burst and steady damage in between pulls.

I also hope they do something about our AoE, because on more than 3+ targets it's just hopeless.

I also see they removed the stun off FoF, so I don't see why they can't reduce its cooldown, a 25 sec cd for a rotational damage ability feels way too long while you spend most of your time alternating between jab and blackout kick.

Also, I wish the Tigereye Brew stack duration was increased to 5-10 minutes ;(.

WW CM's are fine, WW aoe is fine

[Tradu]

Well, most balance druids, myself included, despised Eclipse and are not sad to see it gone ;p. My feeling is the same for TEB's reduced importance.

It's also great for PvP because building TEB in PvP is kinda dumb given that opponents are not dumb mobs and they do disrupt your rotations with CC or counter pressure, so stacking up brews takes even longer.

The monk thus has more steady damage that isn't neutered when people see "Oh, monk used brew, just cyclone him and he'll be back to hitting like a wet noodle for the next 30 seconds."

I'm not sad to see the abomination that is MoP/WoD Eclipse gone either. The difference is that the Cata version gave you full control over it, which was nice.

Honestly, I don't care about PvP because I don't do it myself, but how exactly is it any different with TeB as a "normal" CD? You'd still just get CCd whenever you use it, AND then they'd know that for the next 1.5 min you wouldn't have it available. And completely changing a spec in PvE because of some PvP issues is something I completely disagree with(just make a damn PvP talent that turns TeB into a 1.5 min CD, problem solved).

[Deleted]

Honestly, I don't care about PvP because I don't do it myself, but how exactly is it any different with TeB as a "normal" CD? You'd still just get CCd whenever you use it, AND then they'd know that for the next 1.5 min you wouldn't have it available.

What Lucrece is addressing is the WW PvP "inability" to apply proper pressure outside TeB uptime, their new design seems to put our damage in a higher place outside TeB and with TeB being 30% dmg rather than 60% hopefully emphasizes the shift and that the new TeB is less important in order to secure a kill.

However our unique nature of being able to control (well mostly) the flow of TeB stacks generation and deciding when to use it was what made the WW spec unique and clunky at the same time. The on-demand increase in damage, instant healing and damage reduction made all the difference and but at the same time way too much dependent on it. Whether or not its a good thing to be free from it is a matter of taste as long the shift is done properly. I maintain my skeptism on the lack of abilities to reduce incoming damage and that we need some kind of "shamanistic rage" type of skill, especially now without 60% increased dmg & healing, expel harm, pvp set bonus, baseline fortified brew and zen meditation.