Life Tap going forward

[Jessicka]

What are you talking about? Mana Tap is fun? How so? It is basically 2 GCDs worth of casting spent every 20 seconds doing nothing just to give some numbers boost?

Where's the "fun" in that? It is literally a shittier version of Slice and Dice, because Slice and Dice at least lasts respectable amount of time.

Heck, they could have gone back to that TBC glyph thing that gave you spellpower buff for 40 seconds every time you cast life tap based on your Spirit or something.

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The whole reason why such maintenance buffs are shit is simply because you just need to press a damn button once per x seconds like a mindless drone and it does absolutely nothing besides making 100000 appear as 115000.

Question, why do I need to press a button for that to begin with, if the intent is to have this permanently up anyway? It's not complex or challenging... the biggest complication you can do here is to prematurely refresh it on the move... such skill.

If you like DoTs, you like pressing a button every 15-30 seconds for a maintenance debuff for an x% damage increase. What is the difference, really?

[Baconeggcheese]

If you like DoTs, you like pressing a button every 15-30 seconds for a maintenance debuff for an x% damage increase. What is the difference, really?

Because it's nothing like a dot, it's false equivalence to say it is.

The reason maintenance buffs aren't fun is because it lowers the base value of your dmg so that your dmg is where it's supposed to be when this buff is up and the time spent maintaining the buff in the manners they keep using aren't engaging. They simply go *Ok, we want them to do 100 dps, so we'll make them do 85 dps and then this buff increases their dmg by 18% so that they do 100.3 dmg* instead of just making the class do 100 dps.

It is not fun to have to spend GCD's not doing dmg in order to do normal dmg when they could just as easily bake that dmg into the base class and have you spend those GCD's doing what you enjoy. Which would be attacking.

All maintenance buffs do is make you feel weak when you don't have them, instead of strong when you do... which is why no matter what mechanic they use to facilitate them persistent maintenance buffs are never fun.

[bio347]

I don't think having a maintenance buff as a talent is the worst thing in the world, so long as its opposing talents are sufficiently attractive. I suppose Blizzard doesn't have the best track record there, but they're trying a lot of new stuff and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

[Baconeggcheese]

I don't think having a maintenance buff as a talent is the worst thing in the world, so long as its opposing talents are sufficiently attractive. I suppose Blizzard doesn't have the best track record there, but they're trying a lot of new stuff and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

You can't balance a maintenance buff against anything else and still have real choice.

You either always take it because it's better to have the flat x% dmg all the time vs the other options, or you don't take it because the other options are numerically better. There is no added gameplay with these things so its not like it adds depth or anything, its either tuned to be the only option or its tuned to be irrelevant.

[Xorn]

I don't think having a maintenance buff as a talent is the worst thing in the world, so long as its opposing talents are sufficiently attractive. I suppose Blizzard doesn't have the best track record there, but they're trying a lot of new stuff and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

I mean, look at the other options in that tier. They aren't. For affliction, permanent Corruption or 5% more damage while UA is active does NOT equate to 15% more damage at all times. And for Destro, it's even worse. I honestly hope they either remove or redesign Mana Tap.

Here's an idea: Your spells deal 15% more damage but cost x% more mana. There. It accomplishes their desire to have us Life Tap more, but at the same time doesn't make us track a maintenance buff. It's not quite ideal, but I'd take it over the current iteration.

They would, however, need to tune it to a point where the other talents in that row are actually competitive.

[Phoenexis]

What are you talking about? Mana Tap is fun? How so? It is basically 2 GCDs worth of casting spent every 20 seconds doing nothing just to give some numbers boost?

Where's the "fun" in that? It is literally a shittier version of Slice and Dice, because Slice and Dice at least lasts respectable amount of time.

Heck, they could have gone back to that TBC glyph thing that gave you spellpower buff for 40 seconds every time you cast life tap based on your Spirit or something.

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The whole reason why such maintenance buffs are shit is simply because you just need to press a damn button once per x seconds like a mindless drone and it does absolutely nothing besides making 100000 appear as 115000.

Question, why do I need to press a button for that to begin with, if the intent is to have this permanently up anyway? It's not complex or challenging... the biggest complication you can do here is to prematurely refresh it on the move... such skill.

That is exactly what a DoT is on single target fights
Especially since snapshotting no longer exists.

Furthermore, it is not a shittier version of Slice and Dice because Slice and Dice requires you to spend a resource which you took time building up for a buff instead of something like a big damage boost/heal/stun.

- - - Updated - - -

Because it's nothing like a dot, it's false equivalence to say it is.

The reason maintenance buffs aren't fun is because it lowers the base value of your dmg so that your dmg is where it's supposed to be when this buff is up and the time spent maintaining the buff in the manners they keep using aren't engaging. They simply go *Ok, we want them to do 100 dps, so we'll make them do 85 dps and then this buff increases their dmg by 18% so that they do 100.3 dmg* instead of just making the class do 100 dps.

It is not fun to have to spend GCD's not doing dmg in order to do normal dmg when they could just as easily bake that dmg into the base class and have you spend those GCD's doing what you enjoy. Which would be attacking.

All maintenance buffs do is make you feel weak when you don't have them, instead of strong when you do... which is why no matter what mechanic they use to facilitate them persistent maintenance buffs are never fun.

Technically having another DoT in your rotation lowers the base damage values of all your other spells in the same way. That is actually exactly what happened with Destruction in Cata. Just as them lowering the damage of all your spells by 15% to add a buff increasing it by 15%, adding a DoT will lower the damage dealt by all your other spells by a certain amount to accommodate for the added damage of the new DoT.

DoTs without snapshotting on single target fights serve the exact same purpose.

[PickleballAce]

Do we need a Mana Tap poll?

[Gaidax]

That is exactly what a DoT is on single target fights

Except it is not, DoT actually interacts with outside world - you put a DoT on thing and it slowly dies. It's an actual ability that has effect on outside world.

This? This is just making your numbers be 15% in a pretty unfun way. It could be better if it was a more powerful increase on long CD, because then it would actually change your playstyle while the buff is up (like Dark Soul), but in this case? Absolutely no difference, it just makes you life tap more, which by itself is not amazing ability to begin with.

[Phoenexis]

Except it is not, DoT actually interacts with outside world - you put a DoT on thing and it slowly dies. It's an actual ability that has effect on outside world.

This? This is just making your numbers be 15% in a pretty unfun way. It could be better if it was a more powerful increase on long CD, because then it would actually change your playstyle while the buff is up (like Dark Soul), but in this case? Absolutely no difference, it just makes you life tap more, which by itself is not amazing ability to begin with.

Your DoT simply displays small numbers every X seconds and must be kept up constantly throughout the fight. A buff makes your numbers bigger and must be kept throughout the fight. There is no difference whatsoever, unless you're going to pretend that seeing an extra small number every 3 seconds makes things any more fun. Adding a DoT to the rotation would be no different from adding a buff to keep up on single target.

Having multiple DoTs tick successively could be seen as "funner", but it's a complete joke to say that having ONE extra DoT makes it "funner" than having an extra buff.

[A Dark Knight]

life tap is unique, i like it even if it is a hassle sometimes

[Duckz0rs]

Your DoT simply displays small numbers every X seconds and must be kept up constantly throughout the fight. A buff makes your numbers bigger and must be kept throughout the fight. There is no difference whatsoever, unless you're going to pretend that seeing an extra small number every 3 seconds makes things any more fun. Adding a DoT to the rotation would be no different from adding a buff to keep up on single target.

Having multiple DoTs tick successively could be seen as "funner", but it's a complete joke to say that having ONE extra DoT makes it "funner" than having an extra buff.

If you refuse to understand the inherent gameplay difference between buffing yourself and attacking an enemy there's absolutely no point to discussing this further.

[Deleted]

Don't forget that Mana Tap currently consumes 40% of your CURRENT mana.
This puts a little more emphasis on whether you want to Life Tap later on in order to life tap less often, or if you wanna use a specific down time in incoming damage to safely life tap. Also means you maybe won't need to life tap as often if you're okay with playing on a low mana pool. Maybe some situation specific abilities (burst, aoe) consume more mana than the core rotation, thus needing a bigger mana pool at our disposal when we'll need those ? Might be a pretty engaging gameplay and a way to give meaning to our mana pool if we're to be the only casters having to actually manage it.

Mana tap by itself would still need to be tapped every 20 seconds, bar ramp up times or w/e where you'd delay it, but its relationship with life tap and our mana pool makes it a bit more interesting than this imo.

[Phoenexis]

If you refuse to understand the inherent gameplay difference between buffing yourself and attacking an enemy there's absolutely no point to discussing this further.

If your only argument is that a buff is worse than a DoT because you feel like adding a damage effect "feels better" than empowering yourself, then no there isn't. From a purely gameplay perspective, there is no difference whatsoever on single target fights.

And I'd also like to add that trading between your resources for more power is just as much part of the warlock fantasy as is rotting your enemies away through DoTs.

[Deleted]

Don't forget that Mana Tap currently consumes 40% of your CURRENT mana.
This puts a little more emphasis on whether you want to Life Tap later on in order to life tap less often, or if you wanna use a specific down time in incoming damage to safely life tap. Also means you maybe won't need to life tap as often if you're okay with playing on a low mana pool. Maybe some situation specific abilities (burst, aoe) consume more mana than the core rotation, thus needing a bigger mana pool at our disposal when we'll need those ? Might be a pretty engaging gameplay and a way to give meaning to our mana pool if we're to be the only casters having to actually manage it.

Mana tap by itself would still need to be tapped every 20 seconds, bar ramp up times or w/e where you'd delay it, but its relationship with life tap and our mana pool makes it a bit more interesting than this imo.

Sacrifice Life to Gain Mana to sacrifice Mana to gain Power.
Little silly when we could just Sacrifice Life to gain Power ?

Also its hardly engaging or difficult to manage when to Life Tap. (if its anything like it is now)

Whats the point in making Warlocks manage Mana anyways, we already manage our Soulshards?

If your only argument is that a buff is worse than a DoT because you feel like adding a damage effect "feels better" than empowering yourself, then no there isn't. From a purely gameplay perspective, there is no difference whatsoever on single target fights.

And I'd also like to add that trading between your resources for more power is just as much part of the warlock fantasy as is rotting your enemies away through DoTs.

Come on dude.... give it up :P

[Deleted]

Sacrifice Life to Gain Mana to sacrifice Mana to gain Power.
Little silly when we could just Sacrifice Life to gain Power ?

Also its hardly engaging or difficult to manage when to Life Tap. (if its anything like it is now)

Whats the point in making Warlocks manage Mana anyways, we already manage our Soulshards?

The point I was trying to make is that it looks like you WON'T need to generate much mana in order to manatap in a normal situation from the current mana thingy. You'll still need to life tap like on the move or w/e but tbh it feels more like a class favor thing to have to do that. BUT you'll need to life tap if you want to mana tap + use mana intensive abilities to AOE or burst.

At least that's what I hope will get live, after some fashion

[Deleted]

The point I was trying to make is that it looks like you WON'T need to generate much mana in order to manatap in a normal situation from the current mana thingy. You'll still need to life tap like on the move or w/e but tbh it feels more like a class favor thing to have to do that. BUT you'll need to life tap if you want to mana tap + use mana intensive abilities to AOE or burst.

At least that's what I hope will get live, after some fashion

As it stands you would never Life Tap before you Mana Tap(buff) as Mana Tap consumes 40% of current Mana which means its always available to use.

I kinda see what they are trying to do with this talent but in its current form it is awful. (my opinion ofc)
2 globals every 20seconds for a 15% buff is just plain annoying.

Edit : typo

[Deleted]

I don't get why you would need to use 2 globals every 20 seconds ? Sure you'll need to mana tap, so 1 global. But then I get the feeling that our core rotation won't consume much mana as it is, so we won't NEED to get our tapped mana back directly.
Like, pull, you apply dots, let it ramp up a bit while you cast everything, get to 95% mana. Mana tap, you're at around 60%. Classic rotation yadayada, 20 seconds later you're at like 45% mana (numbers out of my ass). You mana tap, and get to 30%.
Now if you know you won't need to use mana intensive abilities, you could keep on dpsing as usual without life tap. Following previous numbers, 20 seconds later you're at 15% mana. Mana tap, you dip to 10%, and it's too low to be able to keep on dpsing for 20 full seconds, you life tap, get 40% of MAX mana back, get back to 50%, and here you roll again. So 1 life tap for 3 mana taps in 60 seconds of monotarget sustained dps.

In mana intensive situations (aoe, burst) you'd maybe want to life tap after the mana tap that gets you to 30%, and average 1 life tap to 1 mana tap like you said. Or just keep on draining your mana till the phase is over, and life tap a bunch in a row to get topped again.

Again numbers are out of my ass, but I'd like some kind of "risk/reward" regarding our mana management, and the design of draining part of your current mana gives me hope towards this.

[Baconeggcheese]

The 'current' thing isn't really important to why the talent isn't fun and if anything makes it unintuitive for your average player. The management there goes out the window as well when you gain the ability to life tap while casting from the legendary chest.

But again, the problem is that maintenance buffs just make you feel weak when you don't have them, as opposed to strong when you do because they are a persistent thing. And they're neigh impossible to balance against other things in the talent row, you either always take it or you never take it because flat / constant % damage buffs aren't situational.

[Wondercrab]

I feel as though Life Tap has ended up in a weird place right now. It's definitely a very cool, flavourful, iconic class ability, but because of the overall direction of the game's design it no longer feels like a particularly relevant or enjoyable part of Warlock gameplay.

Back when casters had to be careful about running out of mana by chugging potions, using cooldowns, or having shadow priests in their group, Warlocks felt very unique and powerful with their ability to simply consume life to refill their mana bar at will. It was an awesome quirk of the class, allowing them to do something different in a way that felt like they were cheating the rules a little. Since then, however, mana as a resource has become largely irrelevant for DPS, since managing it tended not to create very compelling gameplay. Warlocks having to use Life Tap is no longer a cool bonus that makes them feel more powerful than other casters, but, rather ironically, has become a hurdle that makes them feel weaker because they have to sacrifice health and GCDs just to be able to do something that occurs passively for their counterparts.

As such I have to say that Life Tap, as interesting and iconic as it is, just doesn't add anything compelling to the class at this point, at least not in its current form. Abilities like Burning Rush fill the same niche that Life Tap did back in Vanilla and TBC in a much more satisfying way; trading away the Warlock's health for a powerful secondary benefit. If Life Tap is to stay around then it should do something more compelling than just giving mana, which at this point feels like an entirely arbitrary and unsatisfying function.

Mana management for Warlocks in general was probably most interesting for the Destruction spec in MoP, where it functioned more like an energy bar that required you to alternate between building embers via mana-consuming spells and allowing mana to recharge during Chaos Bolt cycles. This and the way Arcane Mages are designed are the right ways in which to make mana management relevant and compelling for a DPS class. It shouldn't just be some arbitrary resource that requires an arbitrary function to refill every couple of minutes or so; it should be an important part of the moment-to-moment gameplay that rewards mindful ability usage rather than just requiring the player to press the "mana refill" button every once in a while.