[WoD] Holy Paladin Guide 6.2

[nightfalls]

Sure, I can add the tip for Iskar. I have clemency in the general guide section because 1) I found a lot of uses for it in HFC and 2) because it's usage is fairly intuitive and doesn't need much extra explaining.

It's actually not as intuitive as one would think. There's clouds of misconceptions that somehow Clemency is equivalent to double Hand casts. But that's not how the charge system works, as I mentioned, you will only get, at most, 1 extra cast per encounter assuming you're using the ability off CD. Which is a pretty awful deal compared to Hand of Purity (which can also be self-cast).

[Deleted]

Getting one more HoS cast is not the point of Clemency. The point is being able to chain two HoS's within time span where you normally couldn't, and that's where the bulk of its value is derived from - the one extra cast per fight is a minor bonus. This is immediately apparent on a fight like Tyrant where most raid setups will require you to HoS tanks more than would be possible without clemency, and those are the occasions where you should spec for it. That said, even following this logic I only consider Tyrant a fight where speccing Clemency for HoS is correct given that your raid isn't stacked with other people who give tank CDs - on top of fights where you want multiple HoP, of course.

As for HoPurity: While its value on DoTs like Doomfire is self evident, I otherwise consider it a pretty dead talent. There have been times in the past where a 15% DR for 6s on the GCD was a thing you would cast, but that is not the game we're playing right now. Being forced to throttle mana expenditure and subsequent tank deaths due to overall lack of HPS were a thing in the start of the expansion, but with how much mana and raw HPS potential we have now such occasions are simply not a concern. When tanks are in danger it's because of serious damage spikes, and serious damage spikes call for better mitigation than 15%. Otherwise, even a non-amplified HL/FoL and its beacon transfers will just do more than that HoPurity will, without costing a talent point, in 9/10 cases.

As for the specific mentions for HoPurity on Iskar and Mannoroth, they're valid uses but even on those fights there are strong counter arguments to be made to pick Unbreakable Spirit instead. HoPurity potentially gains you a lot of DPS/HPS when beam kiters needn't move, but at least for people who are now progressing and are on orb duty I would sooner suggest the safety of DP for every Chakram and the more frequent access to bubble. Similarly, being able to DP on every Imp spawn on Mannoroth is not to be underestimated and can frequently save your life on progression.

As a general comment; unless this guide is intended to be an exhaustive knowledge compendium, I think the trick is to be concise and inform well, but tone it more to leave the decision with the reader. If there's anything to be taken away from all this it is that, with the release of this guide so long after many people finished all content, people have become very invested in the ideas that they have grown accustomed to. In a project like this I think it's important to focus on the factual stuff like how throughput and mitigation cooldowns line up with fight mechanics and making sure abilities and their purpose are well understood, rather than focusing on giving advice what choice you consider the best.

[Dreamguard]

It's actually not as intuitive as one would think. There's clouds of misconceptions that somehow Clemency is equivalent to double Hand casts. But that's not how the charge system works, as I mentioned, you will only get, at most, 1 extra cast per encounter assuming you're using the ability off CD. Which is a pretty awful deal compared to Hand of Purity (which can also be self-cast).

I agree that the charge system is not intuitive, but I was referring to how easy it is to understand when to use Hand of Sacrifice. Also, the charge system isn't always about regular use, it's also about being able to pool charges and have more uses over a shorter time frame. Here's my talent selection for every fight while on Mythic progression:

Hellfire Assault: Clemency for extra Sac's on tanks because they take the most damage and only at specific times (4-5 stacks of Slam).
Iron Reaver: Clemency for extra BoP's on tanks blowing up Reactive Bombs
Kormrok: None of the talents are really that effective. I used Unbreakable Spirit for more DP usage. (We had Rogues and Hunters cloak/deter the runes)
High Council: Purity for Mark of the Necromancer
Kilrogg Deadeye: Clemency for extra BoP's on Heart Seeker targets
Gorefiend: Unbreakable Spirit for extra Divine Protection and Divine Shield to negate Tough of Doom
Iskar: None were that great, so I used Unbreakable Spirit; admittedly I didn't think about Purity being good for the Fel Incineration
Socrethar: Clemency for extra Sac's. One for Reverberating Blow and then 3 for Gift of the Man'ari, but I think this was incorrect*
Fel Lord Zakuun: Unbreakable Spirit for soaking Rumbling Fissure and Soul Cleave
Tyrant Velhari: Clemency for an extra Sac in phase 3
Xhul'horac: Clemency for extra Sac's on the tank for Felblaze Flurry, our other Paladin baited Empowered Chains and took Unbreakable Spirit
Mannoroth: Unbreakable Spirit for more Divine Protection usage, but I think Purity is perfectly fine here too.
Archimonde: Purity for Doomfire Soakers.

*I just did the math and I think regular Hand of Purity usage plus two Sac's on Gift of the Man'ari is more DR than only using 3 Sacs.

I would use 1 Sac on the 2nd Reverberating Blow in Phase 1 at around 0:20. The first set of Gifts come out at around 1:30. If you wait until 2:20 (or even a little before), you get 3 uses of Hand of Sacrifice on a ~5:30 fight. At 12 seconds each, that's 30% DR over 36 out of 240 seconds or 4.5% damage reduction. Hand of Purity is 15% DR over 6 seconds every 30 seconds or 3% DR. For whatever reason I was thinking that using Hand of Purity made using Purity and Sac mutually exclusive. If you use both Hand of Purity AND Hand of Sacrifice on Gifts, it's 6% DR (only 2 Sacs over 4 minutes is 3% DR).

When I change Socrethar to Purity, I get:

Clemency: 5/13
Unbreakable Spirit: 3/13 (4 or 5/13 with Iskar/Mannoroth)
Hand of Purity: 3/13 (4 or 5/13 with Iskar/Mannoroth)

I've never thought Purity was bad, I just thought that explaining how to use Purity was too complicated to add to the brief talents section and wanted to cover it in the HFC Tips section, also I didn't know that Purity was good on Socrethar until this very post ^.^

I made it more clear that all three are viable options.

- - - Updated - - -

...In a project like this I think it's important to focus on the factual stuff like how throughput and mitigation cooldowns line up with fight mechanics and making sure abilities and their purpose are well understood, rather than focusing on giving advice what choice you consider the best.

Thank you. Very well said (all of it, not just that small part)

[nightfalls]

Getting one more HoS cast is not the point of Clemency. The point is being able to chain two HoS's within time span where you normally couldn't, and that's where the bulk of its value is derived from - the one extra cast per fight is a minor bonus.

I'm well aware of that, hence my comments about it being good for BoP despite the fact that you still "only" get 1 more per fight. The thing is, there's not that much value in what you mentioned, especially to a well-organized raid group. When targets really need external CD's, they are not that hard to find. For instance your other healers, unless you are somehow packing a raid of shaman/holy priest, all have CD's. So do Ret/Prot/Warriors. Tanks also have their own CD's too, a fact some may forget.

And again my point is that if your tanks are somehow "that" in need of healing, you have Purity. Personally I'd say it would take a lot to convince me to not take UBS (i.e. a real reason to take the extra tank CD's). Otherwise, you losing a ton of flexibility (with half CD on bubble), damage reduction on yourself, and Lay on Hands.

This is immediately apparent on a fight like Tyrant where most raid setups will require you to HoS tanks more than would be possible without clemency, and those are the occasions where you should spec for it. That said, even following this logic I only consider Tyrant a fight where speccing Clemency for HoS is correct given that your raid isn't stacked with other people who give tank CDs.

While I haven't done this tier myself, I find it hard to believe that Tyrant will really "require" you to HoS that much, as in there is no way to otherwise optimally assign CD's. I'd imagine that most comps for Tyrant use something along the lines of Paladin + Disc (which brings a tank CD) + Shaman (which does not), and the 4th healer would be something like 2nd Paladin or Druid/Monk (which do again), so you're not really that short. If Pacer has said that you specifically don't have to, I'll take his word for it.

As for HoPurity: While its value on DoTs like Doomfire is self evident, I otherwise consider it a pretty dead talent.

Like I mentioned, personally it would take a lot to convince me not to take UBS. While I am not saying I would always default to it, generally the reason would be something like: "Need BoP" or "Need Purity" - which that utility cannot be replaced in a raid comp. One extra Sac during 1 specific time is just too weak of a reason to ditch UBS for an entire fight duration.

Edit: Regarding Dreamguard's multiple uses of Clemency - It's worth noting all of those are only really worth it if there's a specific use of the double-charge of Sac (not just "extra" ones, which again add up to just 1 extra) that can be identified as essential and irreplaceable. And as I mentioned above, even then I still would question the "irreplaceable" component - but that needs to be there to begin with.

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In a project like this I think it's important to focus on the factual stuff like how throughput and mitigation cooldowns line up with fight mechanics and making sure abilities and their purpose are well understood, rather than focusing on giving advice what choice you consider the best.

Here I would actually not agree. With different strategies and healer comps you may need different throughput and mitigation CD's. Those are probably best decided by a healing lead, unless there's just some mechanics that have such an obvious answer with a Paladin ability that you would never choose anything else.

[Jeathebelle]

So much "common knowledge" and so little data. I feel bad for you Dreamguard, fighting the good fight.

(1) UFE is a fine trinket. Better than any HFC trinkets other than Libram, Phylactery, and IG.
--Everything said against it is touchyfeelycraft or "im a big deal so listen to my opinion" craft.
--The 2 main arguments, that the leech on raid members will do nothing and the leech on tanks will butcher your beacon hps, are contradictory.
--The 1st one is silly: with current gear your spot healing will put leech buffs on people ranging from 5-15% for 10 seconds. There aren't many fights where someone goes 10 seconds taking no damage, and a 10% leech buff for DPS players in current gear is easily 8-10k+ hps. That's a pretty beefy and useful hot.
--The 2nd one is sillier: the tank self-healing with leech will make my beacon overheal more!!1!!1 Lol ok so ban your druids from rejuving and your monks from ExLing your tanks, also ban the tanks from using their healing (which, btw, is almost always higher than your beacon healing as a source of tank healing). Newsflash, tanks take a lot of damage, and more healing on them is actually a GOOD THING even if it makes your beacons overheal a bit more. Who cares what happens when your beacons are overhealing; what matters is the hps on the tanks when your beacons are insufficient by themselves, and the leech there helps.
--Is it better for other classes? Absolutely. Are there better trinkets for hpals? Yep, no doubt. Is it a fine choice if you dont happen to get one of the 3 better ones? Yes, it is.

(2) People are still ejaculating over Phylactery? Phylactery is currently worse than IG, probably worse than UFE.
--The only reason Phylactery was BiS during progression was because it allowed you to cast more flash of light.
--Currently, whether you're farming or still progressing, +10 ilvls and the ludicrous 795 ring make mana pretty much a non-thing regardless of the Phylactery.
--While I agree that 3 months ago Phylactery was unquestionably BiS after the Libram, I think it's probably worse than UFE now. All it gives you is some int and haste and not that much of either. The regen is virtually useless.
--I always use IG instead now, because I can cast as much FoL as I want regardless.
--Actually look at your mana on logs and see how often your mana actually drops below 50%, much less need a potion, much less actually need the Phylactery. Especially with silly ilvl and 1-3 minute fights.

(3) Clemency is fine on several fights.
--Tyrant absolutely required clemency, at least for my group and many others I know of. During prog, 20-30 ilvls ago, both tanks got absolutely dumpstered in the last phase, and we ran through each and every tank cd to keep close to 100% uptime on externals for as long as possible on both tanks. If externals fell off, they died guaranteed. May still be true for groups currently working on it, idk.
--Xhul'horac also absolutely dumpstered tanks on progression, for the first couple mins while Akkelion is up. 20 ilvls ago we needed an external for each and every flurry. Double sac helped a ton, especially if you 2 or 3 healed and used a comp of all dks-mages-locks-rogues and lacked a lot of externals.
--I used Clemency on HFA too, to double bop off 4+ stacks of slam debuff.
--Ditto on Reaver, to bop people to jump on the bombs.

(4) Yea and Purity is awesome too.
--Amazing on Mannoroth for the curses--up for each one, prevents death or worrying about PWS/weakened soul/what have you.
--Mandatory for Archimonde progression (again, pre-LOL status from +ilvls and max rings), both for the doomfires and the sources.

(5) I use UBS most of the time now, sure, because lol 745 ilvl who needs externals. But for progression UBS is pretty much the weakest one. I can't think of any fights we actually needed 2 DPs per minute and 2.5 min cd bubble.

(6) The movement speed tier is purely preference.
--Whatever floats your boat. If you succeed with it, great.
--I like Long Arm because I play SH and I'm judging anyway, so it's a very high uptime big speed boost.
--I glyph Judgment on Manno and Archi because of the range issues, and the range issues disappear thanks to the glyph. I do it b/c again, I'm playing SH anyway, and because other than MW & Beacon our other glyphs suck currently. FoL glyph only buffs non-libram FoL or HS, & only if you cast 2x on one guy, so it is basically useless (except for Tyrant cheesing on a feral druid...); Sac glyph is useless now that fights last 2 minutes and tanks are unkillable 745 gods.
--If Long Arm won't work, I prefer speed of light because it's the biggest boost. Best on Kormrok eg.
--If you like pursuit, kudos. I'd definitely choose it over LAotL for an EF spec.

/end rant

[nightfalls]

(3) Clemency is fine on several fights.
--Tyrant absolutely required clemency, at least for my group and many others I know of. During prog, 20-30 ilvls ago, both tanks got absolutely dumpstered in the last phase, and we ran through each and every tank cd to keep close to 100% uptime on externals for as long as possible on both tanks. If externals fell off, they died guaranteed. May still be true for groups currently working on it, idk.
--Xhul'horac also absolutely dumpstered tanks on progression, for the first couple mins while Akkelion is up. 20 ilvls ago we needed an external for each and every flurry. Double sac helped a ton, especially if you 2 or 3 healed and used a comp of all dks-mages-locks-rogues and lacked a lot of externals.
--I used Clemency on HFA too, to double bop off 4+ stacks of slam debuff.
--Ditto on Reaver, to bop people to jump on the bombs.

Like I mentioned Clemency's more than valid for double BoP. For most players, I'd still be very cautious using it for BoS only, but if you have every CD counted and you absolutely need the 2nd one (typically only for under-healed fights, which would include Xhul and even Tyrant - I believe some groups have 3 healed the latter too?) then it is fine to take. Though I'd argue that's still partly a leadership decision too (based on counting all tank/externals).

(4) Yea and Purity is awesome too.
--Amazing on Mannoroth for the curses--up for each one, prevents death or worrying about PWS/weakened soul/what have you.
--Mandatory for Archimonde progression (again, pre-LOL status from +ilvls and max rings), both for the doomfires and the sources.

I think Purity can be underrated. When it's good, it's extremely good. The 15% "alternative" (if you can't get the benefit from periodic damage) external is better than the 0%/10% from past expansions too.

That said I don't believe Purity stacks with BoS, unless they changed the "1 hand per Paladin" rule or unless you have 2 Paladins.

(5) I use UBS most of the time now, sure, because lol 745 ilvl who needs externals. But for progression UBS is pretty much the weakest one. I can't think of any fights we actually needed 2 DPs per minute and 2.5 min cd bubble.

Right, it brings little utility outside of Divine Shield soaking but is still a good default.

(More advanced): To use another phrase, it's the best "value" talent, meaning that if you assume steady, constant damage it should reduce the most healing required and also prevent you from dying. In other words, to beat UBS the other talents would really need to fit the encounter.

(6) The movement speed tier is purely preference.

You can tell a guide is too advanced for new players when it goes into specifics on the movement speed tier. Which isn't a bad thing, for Mythic-progressing players.


P.S. Might as well get used to "BoS" now. Even as a newer player, I liked the old names better anyway.

[Deleted]

(2) People are still ejaculating over Phylactery? Phylactery is currently worse than IG, probably worse than UFE.
--The only reason Phylactery was BiS during progression was because it allowed you to cast more flash of light.
--Currently, whether you're farming or still progressing, +10 ilvls and the ludicrous 795 ring make mana pretty much a non-thing regardless of the Phylactery.
--While I agree that 3 months ago Phylactery was unquestionably BiS after the Libram, I think it's probably worse than UFE now. All it gives you is some int and haste and not that much of either. The regen is virtually useless.
--I always use IG instead now, because I can cast as much FoL as I want regardless.
--Actually look at your mana on logs and see how often your mana actually drops below 50%, much less need a potion, much less actually need the Phylactery. Especially with silly ilvl and 1-3 minute fights.

I agree with everthing except the UFE, keep phylactery and drop spirit on jewelry instead if you don't have IG. Also anyone that has reached the point where you kill most bosses in such times will probably not use this guide, this thread is not written for them. I feel like many posts comes from people playing in really good guilds which has a vastly different reality compared to people currently progressing. This whole clemency debate literally comes down to how skilled your tanks are and what class they play, not what is mathematically best.

[IxilaFA]

Also the difference between using UBS or Clemency is marginal. Unless you should specifically be using one of the talents or the other for the encounter, you're not going to be messing anything up in a significant way by taking either. Same for the movement speed tier; take whichever one you feel comfortable using and can utilize best during an encounter.

There's probably better things to argue about and debate in a "beginner's guide" for Holy Paladins than the benefits of UBS over Clemency, if we're not talking about encounter-specific issues.

[nightfalls]

Also the difference between using UBS or Clemency is marginal. Unless you should specifically be using one of the talents or the other for the encounter, you're not going to be messing anything up in a significant way by taking either. Same for the movement speed tier; take whichever one you feel comfortable using and can utilize best during an encounter.

There's probably better things to argue about and debate in a "beginner's guide" for Holy Paladins than the benefits of UBS over Clemency, if we're not talking about encounter-specific issues.

There's several "marginal" talent rows, I wouldn't argue that the 60 tier is one of them though.

For beginners, it's simple. Use Clemency when you need the extra Hands. Use Purity if the encounter has a heavy DoT mechanic that you can cheese. Otherwise, use UBS.

[Lestrang]

I have been using Selfless healer for a long while now, while it gave me a huge number of legendary ranks, there are some specific encounters where i did alot more with less gear using eternal flame. For example, my best SH on gorefiend HC was around 95k HPS. but with selfless healer i had a rank 20 at 135k HPS. I feel like the padding from eternal flame during feast of souls and not wasting the extra gcd for judgment helps alot. But it seems like i forgot how to use this spec cause i just tried to use it again on archimonde normal and i ran oom so fast, guess am using more flash heals than i should cause am used to SH, but still. I used so much holy lights, i tried to not use FH except with infusions unless emergency. HS>HL>HL>HS>HL>HL>HS>HL>EF as much as i could, still was down to 30k mana by the time first tank went to nether.

I feel like EF is so bad, yet the math say they are slightly close to each other, why is that? Is that cause the GCD used on judgment being filled with other heals plus EF? (even though ef does so little of our total healing)

[Dreamguard]

First off, Eternal Flame isn't bad. Selfless Healer is unquestionably the highest potential HPS, but Eternal Flame is still very close and you should use whatever you do best with. The Judgment global has no bearing on how much healing happens between each Holy Shock, only how long between each heal. Both specs still get off two Holy Lights or Flash of Lights between each Holy Shock cooldown. Eternal Flame vs. Light of Dawn is such a small portion of our overall healing that the increase from Eternal Flame is negligible.

Unfortunately, everything you just said is purely anecdotal and probably just a consequence of you playing poorly or your other healers playing better than previous attempts. A lot of your mana issues are probably from gear if you're actually playing as conservatively as you say.

[nightfalls]

I feel like EF is so bad, yet the math say they are slightly close to each other, why is that? Is that cause the GCD used on judgment being filled with other heals plus EF? (even though ef does so little of our total healing)

Are you counting the mana savings from SH in that equation? Because SH is not only an HPS boost from Judgment, it's a huge mana efficiency gain. EF is generally a mana guzzler if you're using FoL more often.

[mcbubble]

I see a some paladins using Phylactery and dropping spirit. Here are a few examples:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Virsta/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ladya/advanced

What's interesting: why are they spec'd into EF? Is this from them logging off after Socrethar?

Also, I thought the glyphed crit soft cap was 2096, and I noticed that a lot of palys are below that...
Any reason for that as well?

[Dreamguard]

There are plenty of great Paladins that use Eternal Flame exclusively. EF and SH are fairly close in numbers and it's definitely not unanimously agreed upon about which is better.

The crit softcap is 2069. There's no specific increase to HPS at that number, it's just the point where crit loses some of it's value. The softcap number is more for reference than anything else. Mastery becomes slightly better in some cases, but its safe to just say that Crit and Mastery are very close and you should be gearing for both.

[nightfalls]

I see a some paladins using Phylactery and dropping spirit. Here are a few examples:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Virsta/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ladya/advanced

What's interesting: why are they spec'd into EF? Is this from them logging off after Socrethar?

Some things to consider are this also (again, haven't played this tier, so Dreamguard's statements will be more accurate).

First, you can never trust spec or even gear, because it's so easy to swap in and out now for specific fights as you mentioned.
Second, those players are in guilds that now have the content on farm to where bosses can likely die very quickly, in those (farm) encounters spirit is greatly devalued.

[Emmylolz]

I am kind of curious as to why EF is considered superior for progression? Besides the higher hps output of SH, to me, the mana efficiency of SH alone makes it worth trying for progression, when fights can get mana intensive and go on longer than expected. This is purely anecdotal evidence, but I remember even when I would only use flash of light on infusion procs as EF I would still go oom towards the end of bosses such as Gorefiend and Hellfire Council on progression.

I am already 13/13 so I am not asking on behalf of myself, but other holy pally friends I have that ask me for healing advice as they progress through mythic HFC.

[IxilaFA]

I am kind of curious as to why EF is considered superior for progression? Besides the higher hps output of SH, to me, the mana efficiency of SH alone makes it worth trying for progression, when fights can get mana intensive and go on longer than expected. This is purely anecdotal evidence, but I remember even when I would only use flash of light on infusion procs as EF I would still go oom towards the end of bosses such as Gorefiend and Hellfire Council on progression.

I am already 13/13 so I am not asking on behalf of myself, but other holy pally friends I have that ask me for healing advice as they progress through mythic HFC.

Because progression is about keeping people alive, and EF does a better job of that. When you play Selfless Healer you are using a GCD every 5 seconds not to heal, but to buff a single-target spell that is probably going to overheal anyways. Selfless Healer is pretty inefficient: it's just about spamming big heals and sniping quick heals. IE, it's for ranking, not for progression.

It largely doesn't matter anymore though. As you can see, I am using Selfless Healer and my guild is still working on Mannoroth. But that's because healing progression fights with current gear levels is an absolute joke. In a situation where you were sitting at 715 ilvl and trying to work on Mythic Xhul, though, you didn't have the gear to complement Selfless Healer. And if you don't have the skill to make it into a flawless rotation, you are better off going for EF regardless of your gear level. If you're not going to be able to keep Judgment and Holy Shock both on CD and are not going to be able to cast Flash of Lights without wasting mana, you shouldn't use Selfless Healer.

[Deleted]

First time I used clemency the whole content (besides killrog, but he's a joke anyways) was, when archimonde was on good farm and we did him with such short timings that you would never know if you bring a doomguard into phase 3 or not and we also "gear"-carried a 725 warrior tank who didn't know the encounter. Thats when I thought clemency was needed throughout HFC.

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There are plenty of great Paladins that use Eternal Flame exclusively. EF and SH are fairly close in numbers and it's definitely not unanimously agreed upon about which is better.

The crit softcap is 2069. There's no specific increase to HPS at that number, it's just the point where crit loses some of it's value. The softcap number is more for reference than anything else. Mastery becomes slightly better in some cases, but its safe to just say that Crit and Mastery are very close and you should be gearing for both.

I socketed and enchanted fully into mastery some weeks ago. Didn't feel any difference besides Monk/Shaman/holy complaining that there is even more damn absorbs.