[LEGION] Mistweaving Discussion

[Deleted]

"never sold as a simple melee class" .

"Experiment a little more with a healer that CAN stand up in melee"

Granted, release MW was pretty powerfull as FW but i dont really get why you try to convince me that the one and only strength of Monk is Fistweaving or that it should be a pure and only melee healer. The concept in WoD worked great, being able to utilize both especially in BrF where Chi-ex melee healing was amazing on certain bosses. Later on it sadly was more of a Downtime filler/Manateabuilder. The option to be able to do both is what made the class appeal to me. If you want to play FW only, great, go ahead, but dont try to shame other people for liking a more versatile style of play that is possible with the kit we have and not liking being forced into one of the two due to some poor designchoices.

Anyway back to topic

IIRC EF is cheaper than 2 x Vivifies and does more healing if it doesn't overheal which remains true even with 1 UT proc. EF heals more people for less individually though but the double mastery proc makes EF better, especially if you can time it with a UT Vivify and 2 or 3 ReM's from TFT.

Overall it's going to come down to how much mana you have spend vs how much damage the raid is taking and how quickly. If you can you want to rely on ReM, UT Vivifies and Effuse/Soothing to top people up as much as you can to conserve mana for when you really want it.

From your experience, how often is it viable/needed to take Mistwrap over Lifecycles due to needed Tank or extreme Spothealing in the curent Betaversion of the Raidbosses, or rather is it worth taking in any situation?

[Deleted]

From your experience, how often is it viable/needed to take Mistwrap over Lifecycles due to needed Tank or extreme Spothealing in the curent Betaversion of the Raidbosses, or rather is it worth taking in any situation?

As far as I noticed, Mistwrap doesn't really get to shine in raids. Enveloping Mist is far too expensive to spam it, tanks have a ridiculous high amount of selfheal and casting Soothing Mist while moving isn't a good choice on its own. With that stated, Lifecycles isn't a good choice either since you would still waste your mana on Vivify and Enveloping Mist overhealing most of the time.
Even if you don't want to use RT, SotC is still the best option in that tier.

[lycrates]

IIRC EF is cheaper than 2 x Vivifies and does more healing if it doesn't overheal which remains true even with 1 UT proc. EF heals more people for less individually though but the double mastery proc makes EF better, especially if you can time it with a UT Vivify and 2 or 3 ReM's from TFT.

Overall it's going to come down to how much mana you have spend vs how much damage the raid is taking and how quickly. If you can you want to rely on ReM, UT Vivifies and Effuse/Soothing to top people up as much as you can to conserve mana for when you really want it.

If I know mana is going to be an issue I try to save EF for times when it won't overheal with the direct portion and the hot will only overheal when overlapped and I can get 3 or more double mastery procs from TFT ReM's or UT Vivifies. If I think all of that is going to overheal I don't do it and instead fall back on ReM, Effuse/Soothing or UT Vivifies to bring people back up over the next 10 seconds or so.

In mythic+ I worry less about mana and more about topping people up fast though. Especially when packs/bosses don't last long enough to warrant mana conservation to that extreme. Life Cycles is really good here. Even with more mastery on my gear than anything else Gusts is still pretty lackluster as a proportion of my total healing. So don't put too much faith in EF double mastery proc being good or the deciding factor on whether or not to use EF.

Thanks. those were exactly things i was wondering about. So from what I understand if less than six people are significantly injured (or the raid is high enough on health that it may overheal) then generally avoid EF.

[Supliftz]

"Experiment a little more with a healer that CAN stand up in melee"

Granted, release MW was pretty powerfull as FW but i dont really get why you try to convince me that the one and only strength of Monk is Fistweaving or that it should be a pure and only melee healer. The concept in WoD worked great, being able to utilize both especially in BrF where Chi-ex melee healing was amazing on certain bosses. Later on it sadly was more of a Downtime filler/Manateabuilder. The option to be able to do both is what made the class appeal to me. If you want to play FW only, great, go ahead, but dont try to shame other people for liking a more versatile style of play that is possible with the kit we have and not liking being forced into one of the two due to some poor designchoices.

I still find it funny that people play a class literally sold on the idea of melee healing, and not liking when melee healing is optimal.

By the way, mana tea building for mana tea stopped being a thing in highmaul. Mana was either infinite in 6.0 brf, or didn't matter because you had 2800 spirit. That means the primary use of crane stance in wod was the fistweaving. It later became "monk does more damage than every other healer" rather than any form of healing utility.

I also find it funny when people say fistweaving isn't versatile when the alternative is literally enm > vivify > enm > vivify with rem on cd, and soothing mist in downtime, or spam enveloping mist and soothing to sustain.

Monk can only play 1 way because mana is so limiting, you're forced to play the way your talents tell you how to play.

[Deleted]

As far as I noticed, Mistwrap doesn't really get to shine in raids. Enveloping Mist is far too expensive to spam it, tanks have a ridiculous high amount of selfheal and casting Soothing Mist while moving isn't a good choice on its own. With that stated, Lifecycles isn't a good choice either since you would still waste your mana on Vivify and Enveloping Mist overhealing most of the time.
Even if you don't want to use RT, SotC is still the best option in that tier.

So its still quite viable to swap from ranged to melee during downtimes or in general to get some mana back with TofT and provide some dps even without RT? That sounds like what i was hoping for, thanks.

[Deleted]

As far as I noticed, Mistwrap doesn't really get to shine in raids. Enveloping Mist is far too expensive to spam it, tanks have a ridiculous high amount of selfheal and casting Soothing Mist while moving isn't a good choice on its own. With that stated, Lifecycles isn't a good choice either since you would still waste your mana on Vivify and Enveloping Mist overhealing most of the time.
Even if you don't want to use RT, SotC is still the best option in that tier.

Dont aggre with the arguement that it will overheal. Most of the mythic raiding tests have been spending to much mana to fast with phylactern trinket, the consumption of mana from most healers isnt sustainable. When mana is becoming an issue healers wont snipe each others heals.

Enveloping mist is our strongest singel target no cooldown spell, not using it being afraid of it will overheal is beyond me.

[Volibear]

Dont aggre with the arguement that it will overheal. Most of the mythic raiding tests have been spending to much mana to fast with phylactern trinket, the consumption of mana from most healers isnt sustainable. When mana is becoming an issue healers wont snipe each others heals.

Enveloping mist is our strongest singel target no cooldown spell, not using it being afraid of it will overheal is beyond me.

Using Enm isn't bad, but to get good usage out of Mist Wrap or Lifecycles you need to use it more often, which means more mana expenditure (it's expensive!) with no SotC mana returns.

[Deleted]

Using Enm isn't bad, but to get good usage out of Mist Wrap or Lifecycles you need to use it more often, which means more mana expenditure (it's expensive!) with no SotC mana returns.

This is exactly what I wanted to say.

[Chaosity]

Being able to fistweave has ALWAYS been a part of Mistweavers utility. Personally, I really didn't care for the swapping of stances for many reasons (but did it anyways) - however that is no longer an issue in Legion.

Anyone that has played a Mistweaver since release or shortly there after - is aware of this fact. Alot of people like to think that it has nothing to do with the "core" of the class, but sadly I believe that this is where alot of skill will come in legion with the way things are panning out.

If you plan to completely ignore a base part of actually playing a Mistweaver, they should probably bring another healer class to raid that provides more utility.

[meob]

So its still quite viable to swap from ranged to melee during downtimes or in general to get some mana back with TofT and provide some dps even without RT? That sounds like what i was hoping for, thanks.

I don't quite see a reason to leave melee unless there's fire. Mainly using ReM (5+ up seems solid from my PoV, but people claim to have 10+ active with much haste which sounds really impressive) and Vivify on UT procs, preferably essence font if I can make good use of it, but not really touching anything else that costs mana. Chi-Ji seems grossly overtuned compared to RJW, so there's that. There's just no reason to not hit the boss. I've been using mist wrap for pvp/dungeons, but only for the 15% longer EM duration in an environment where its constant usage is actually legit, still RT tho.

Don't see a reason to play with a talent that isn't RT, mainheals being ReM, (UT) Vivify and EF. ReM has an absurd healing/mana ratio, I mean effuse is labeled cheap and effecticient but even including the mastery proc that probably doubles that efficiency it's still not nearly as good as ReM. And you need RT to make proper use of ReM.

To fistweaving though, best talent in that 90 row is already a 3min fire-and-forget CD, I really wouldn't want *standing at range scratching yerself between the legs* to be equal to or even outperform a build that requires a lot more attention.

[Deleted]

I don't quite see a reason to leave melee unless there's fire. Mainly using ReM (5+ up seems solid from my PoV, but people claim to have 10+ active with much haste which sounds really impressive) and Vivify on UT procs, preferably essence font if I can make good use of it, but not really touching anything else that costs mana. Chi-Ji seems grossly overtuned compared to RJW, so there's that. There's just no reason to not hit the boss. I've been using mist wrap for pvp/dungeons, but only for the 15% longer EM duration in an environment where its constant usage is actually legit, still RT tho.

Don't see a reason to play with a talent that isn't RT, mainheals being ReM, (UT) Vivify and EF. ReM has an absurd healing/mana ratio, I mean effuse is labeled cheap and effecticient but even including the mastery proc that probably doubles that efficiency it's still not nearly as good as ReM. And you need RT to make proper use of ReM.

To fistweaving though, best talent in that 90 row is already a 3min fire-and-forget CD, I really wouldn't want *standing at range scratching yerself between the legs* to be equal to or even outperform a build that requires a lot more attention.

Has anyone actually done the math/excessive testing? I see a ton of people just contradicting eachother at this point from MW is definitely equal to FW +RT to no reason not to go RT ever, which is tbh what i thought after seing the legendaries, so im just confused at this point if its really that extreme of a difference or if in the end itll just be a question of worldfirst or not.

[Meradith]

So it sounds like RT and FT are both very viable for Mythic + dungeons? Supliftz, do you use RT in mythic dungeons? If you use FT, do you find you have to drink?

[Deleted]

Hps, healing per cast and mana all goes in what makes a spell effective. Effuse is very effectice for the speed of the cast. While rem is more healing per cast its less hps. Rem healing isnt a lifesaving heal either its a good softerner tho. Saving lives we need to use the stronger spells like font and enveloping mist.

Our kit actaully got all effective spells as long as they hit the correct amount of targets. Our slowest spell is 2.0 afterall and that spell scale with haste and tft can make it instant.

[Garg]

I'm pretty sure I linked this a while back, but there's been some extensive changes, and I've since updated it with Healing/Cast time and Healing/Mana. For anyone that wants to look at why Crit > Mastery for Mistweaving, or any other applicable question, here you go!

Mistweaver Spells with Stats and Artifact Traits Spreadsheet

[Deleted]

Heal per mana does that take into account the mastery proc of the spell as well? Edit: NVM XD

Just looking on that spreadsheet our stats are really tight to each other.
Just a fast a look at REM:

crit haste mastery vers
5000 5000 5000 0
Rem: 1586

crit haste mastery vers
5000 5000 10000 0
Rem: 1739

crit haste mastery vers
5000 10000 5000 0
Rem: 1756

crit haste mastery vers
10000 5000 5000 0
Rem: 1775

crit haste mastery vers
5000 5000 5000 5000
Rem: 1784

Playing arround with it. Crit beats haste for rem.

crit haste mastery vers
10000 7500 000 2500
Rem: 1807
Thats the highest i found with 20k ratings.

[Deleted]

does that include the haste - dancing mists synergy?

[Samvex]

So all in all is there a stat priority out there ? Are there different ones for melee/range mw?

[Deleted]

Everything points at crit / haste then verse atm.

[Rilee0133]

I TOTALLY get the whole "battle healer" concept. I get that MW was sold as the melee healing class, I GET IT. What I DON'T get is that if this is how we're to be played now, in melee, using melee abilities to enhance our healing "rotation", WHY would you make it so after every cast you auto channel Soothing Mist and make it so we can't do white dmg to the boss? They need to pick a way to play MW or split it into 2 specs, the melee battle healer or the ranged caster healer. This random mix of both so they are both viable makes it feel SLIGHTLY clunky.

[Samvex]

Well you are mainly a healer so healing is still more important and the way to go. That is why you will channel SM over hitting the boss with white hits I think. You put out heals as needed and only if there is no heal needed (or you want mana) you will start hitting the boss with spells(and white hits)

All in all it is not the best conclusion to this spec right now but it is viable