[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Inuyaki]

Do you stream by chance?

[Cubcake]

Edit: keep losing aggro to our warrior tank, it's triggering me.

Are the ilvls in the logs correct? The fact that you're almost 70 ilvls up on him and still losing aggro has me worried. I know the number tuning hasn't really started but still...

[Deleted]

Are the ilvls in the logs correct? The fact that you're almost 70 ilvls up on him and still losing aggro has me worried. I know the number tuning hasn't really started but still...

Nah the ilvl check on warcraftlogs for the ilvl boost is pretty random. Even keeps changing from pull to pull, we're all 899.

Edit: Doing some shenanigans with the tank debuff, dropping it on a melee for now since it doesn't reset on 2 debuffs with 2 tanks. Got less uptime on the boss now to test stuff.

Edit2: Lagging out, I think it's the end of testing

[Cubcake]

Nah the ilvl check on warcraftlogs for the ilvl boost is pretty random. Even keeps changing from pull to pull, we're all 899.

Edit: Doing some shenanigans with the tank debuff, dropping it on a melee for now since it doesn't reset on 2 debuffs with 2 tanks. Got less uptime on the boss now to test stuff.

Okay, I assumed that wasn't correct. Wouldn't be very effected for a boss test lol.

Have a few questions for you since you've been testing it.
1) Does it feel like there are a ton of gaps were you're waiting for energy to build up when using SI? I assume you were pooling some do you didn't waste a proc and my fear is that the spec will play more like a DK than a Monk. I rather enjoy being able to have a spam button.

2) In the testing, how often did you feel you needed to use a brew stack to purify instead of on ISB?

3) Does CJL actually seem viable for single add pick ups or is it still crap like it is now? Without CE and DH, I am quite concerned about add pick ups (as are many), especially at range. I mean with the range of KS (assuming the adds aren't spawning in BFE), Dave (if I take him), the Flaming Keg that I seriously hope gets some good TLC, and a well aimed Chi Burst... I am sure we will be able to manage but still. It seems some people are split on if this will be a problem or not, so I would like your opinion since mine is all paper theory and assumptions. (I'm at work so I am not sure if the boss test you're on has adds to test this on or not)

4) With Dave being a talent now, is it annoying having to choose between Dave and Leg Sweep? I am worried that there will be cases where both are very valuable (add fights) and having to choose one or the other, Dave will win every time... especially given the loss of CE+DH.

5) Since we are very dodge driven tanks now, do you think we are going to run into the Mythic Manno issue were before gear made up for it, if you didn't dodge a boss attack, you die? I am worried that because some boss abilities can't be dodged, and we might run into this issue. While the damage reduction from ISB is nice as hell and will likely make up for it, it's still a worry in my mind since I can't feel how the class plays.

6) Does Special Delivery miss sometimes? I was watching the FinalBossTV video and it seemed like the keg landed in a crappy spot a few times and barely clipped one of the dummies while completely missing the other two. This talent seems gimmicky and pretty terrible unless it's on a super heavy add fight like normal/heroic Hellfire Assault.

7) Did you take RJW when using SI (if you did have a lot of down time in the rotation) as a filler for something to do? Do you feel like you were forced to take that (or anything else) just to keep things from not being a total bore?

8) Does the DPS from Niuzao seem decent or is the loss of Xuen and ToD going to put a big damper in our damage capabilities? I know they are increasing tank damage overall but I am worried that I will feel pretty nerfed.

9) Do you think Eye of the Tiger is a decent talent or do you think it's pretty lackluster. In theory it sounds like it could be good but I am worried it's really going to be trash since the healing and damage factor are going to be far less than CB or CW.

[Deleted]

Figthing "C'thulhu" now, logs https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DFMHh4xr8VNcTyLB/

Raid ilvl is 875. Looks like a heavy add fight

My stats: http://puu.sh/o6i2m/7db31f6700.png + about 30k Attack power

[Tech614]

Something to keep in mind with "Dave vs Leg Sweep", there is actually very few situations where leg sweep in valuable.

For leg sweep to be viable, there has to be an add pack you want to control. Meaning they have to be casters casting something dangerous. You should almost never use leg sweep if the only danger is melee attacks as that syncs all of the mobs up and leads to burst damage on you.

So while yes it sucks, leg sweep is actually less valuable then you might think even though there will still be a few cases where you need it.

[Deleted]

Okay, I assumed that wasn't correct. Wouldn't be very effected for a boss test lol.

Have a few questions for you since you've been testing it.
1) Does it feel like there are a ton of gaps were you're waiting for energy to build up when using SI? I assume you were pooling some do you didn't waste a proc and my fear is that the spec will play more like a DK than a Monk. I rather enjoy being able to have a spam button.

Using Light Brewing tonight and am filling with BoF and RJW. Using SI I usually tend to get a much more fluid rotation out and get much more predictable damage with the many keg smashes you get.

2) In the testing, how often did you feel you needed to use a brew stack to purify instead of on ISB?

Last night it wasn't that much of an issue, but the bosses we did tonight had a "cooldown or oneshot" ability which could be staggered and I found myself using purify on basically every cast. I did a pull on my demon hunter and the scary abilities only seemed an issue on my monk. It's really painful to only have 2 cooldowns on 5 minutes each, bar for diffuse for magic abilities.

3) Does CJL actually seem viable for single add pick ups or is it still crap like it is now? Without CE and DH, I am quite concerned about add pick ups (as are many), especially at range. I mean with the range of KS (assuming the adds aren't spawning in BFE), Dave (if I take him), the Flaming Keg that I seriously hope gets some good TLC, and a well aimed Chi Burst... I am sure we will be able to manage but still. It seems some people are split on if this will be a problem or not, so I would like your opinion since mine is all paper theory and assumptions. (I'm at work so I am not sure if the boss test you're on has adds to test this on or not)

CJL is.... I don't even. It's okay for tagging mobs when you're questing but on the first boss tonight we had 7 adds spawning simultaneously all over the place and there was no way I could pick them up before them killing someone. In the end I just plopped Dave down and told everyone to stack on him (luckily adds spawned on players). But ye, picking up a large amount of mobs at range is an issue. I didn't have these problems on my Demon Hunter or Druid.

4) With Dave being a talent now, is it annoying having to choose between Dave and Leg Sweep? I am worried that there will be cases where both are very valuable (add fights) and having to choose one or the other, Dave will win every time... especially given the loss of CE+DH.

Very boss-specific but no issues right now; mostly stemming from the fact that basically nothing so far was stunnable, at least on fights which required Dave.

5) Since we are very dodge driven tanks now, do you think we are going to run into the Mythic Manno issue were before gear made up for it, if you didn't dodge a boss attack, you die? I am worried that because some boss abilities can't be dodged, and we might run into this issue. While the damage reduction from ISB is nice as hell and will likely make up for it, it's still a worry in my mind since I can't feel how the class plays.

Dodge and our mastery aren't even a thing in my mind right now. I think of them as a sort of "Clearcasting" proc to avoid a melee hit. Not reliable, impact is mediocre at best. Any boss abilities so far where channeled or single-hit so I assume they weren't dodgable so I needed a personal or external for them either way without dodge being a factor.

6) Does Special Delivery miss sometimes? I was watching the FinalBossTV video and it seemed like the keg landed in a crappy spot a few times and barely clipped one of the dummies while completely missing the other two. This talent seems gimmicky and pretty terrible unless it's on a super heavy add fight like normal/heroic Hellfire Assault.

Special Delivery can land behind the mob outside of its splash range. It's pretty terrible right now even for single target. The only place I found some use for it was mobs with large hitboxes where it would hit at least consistently.

7) Did you take RJW when using SI (if you did have a lot of down time in the rotation) as a filler for something to do? Do you feel like you were forced to take that (or anything else) just to keep things from not being a total bore?

RJW is a nice damage boost and adds a nice feel to the rotation. Nothing in that talent row is useful in particular in most cases so I tend to default to RJW. I tried the Ox a couple times but for its cooldown I would expect it to come at least close to Xuen in effectiveness. He won't taunt bosses your attacking so you can't cheese abilities with him either. It might have worked tonight on some of the no-boss add fights to grab some debuffs but his cooldown makes it pretty unreliable.

8) Does the DPS from Niuzao seem decent or is the loss of Xuen and ToD going to put a big damper in our damage capabilities? I know they are increasing tank damage overall but I am worried that I will feel pretty nerfed.

Nothing so far can compensate for the loss of ToD. Xuen on the other hand could be possibly offset with some tactical keg smash play with SI and RJW but it's nowhere as bursty. I haven't done much testing with Niuzao, he's pretty lackluster honestly.

9) Do you think Eye of the Tiger is a decent talent or do you think it's pretty lackluster. In theory it sounds like it could be good but I am worried it's really going to be trash since the healing and damage factor are going to be far less than CB or CW.

I used it the other night but compared to our other sources of healing it's pretty low at the moment. As for damage it feels like something along the lines of zen sphere without the micro management. Defaulting to Chi Burst these days cause it feels like a strong damage and heal in raid/aoe situations. But this is mostly a tuning issue I think.

[Cubcake]

Thanks man! I am glad you could clearing some of this for up me. Kinda worried about Monks at the moment and sadly that DH or Pally tank option is looking more appealing by the minute. Can't wait to see what changes they make between now and release after hearing the feedback.

[Wipeer]

You people can doom and gloom brm all you want when if it ever comes time to abandon brm I'm going down with the ship. Brm4lyfe

[Cubcake]

You people can doom and gloom brm all you want when if it ever comes time to abandon brm I'm going down with the ship. Brm4lyfe

It's not doom and gloom, but if there is a clear disadvantage with BrM over all the other specs it's worth trying to get the devs to acknowledge them. By asking questions and voicing concerns, I am just hopeful that the devs take note and help ensure the scales are a little more balanced at launch. I expect certain tanks to be better at certain things, but overall one class shouldn't feel significantly gimped in comparison to the others.

To expand on this, the point of the Alpha and the testing is to allow people to play the specs and voice their concerns. Ranged multi add pick up is a big one. Overall I love the changes they have made, and I am super excited to see what they do with the class between now and launch, but if certain things aren't fixed before launch, I can see us being in a place where monks will be the shunned tank in raids because of their disadvantages.

[Deleted]

Note that it's more important to show the disavantadges who aren't number-based.

The lack of actual active mitigation move for example is a good feedback at the current point, the lack of damage or health a lot less so, because that's somewhat expected.

[Deleted]

Something I noticed today, the 20second shuffle is a tooltip error only, it ticks down twice as fast (2second ticks per second). They probably broke something when increasing the tick rate. It appears to function as usual though (and you don't actually have it for more than 10 seconds).

In other news, they managed to break this build somehow. Every other CJL and Blackout Strike oneshots mobs (in an aoe cone with knockback!). This is the best I've got on a level 112 elite mob: http://puu.sh/o776h/27f4c8f4a2.jpeg

Also, Flaming Keg can crit!

(for 2 damage)

[Aracs]

I've also noticed from your logs, that total avoidance is pretty unstable between pulls of Il'gynoth. The range is between 25% and 40%. And you have 20% of base avoidance and 23% of mastery which means effective dodge gain from mastery has a huge spread from 5% to 20%, which is not good at all.

Thats means we are pretty random-based tanks: random % of avoidance, random spheres, random double heal...
Only stagger is our non-random damage reduction.

[Deleted]

Note that it's more important to show the disavantadges who aren't number-based.

The lack of actual active mitigation move for example is a good feedback at the current point, the lack of damage or health a lot less so, because that's somewhat expected.

Some of it is psychological as well. Personally I'm just not used to using Ironskin Brew as a cooldown against magic damage and oneshot abilities because this never behaved in such a fashion. Still, my go-to approach is to keep it up as much as possible to smooth physical autoattack damage from the boss so I end up having to pre-plan when to take more damage from the boss to be able to react to some ability which... seems like a cheap trade-of, especially since other classes don't need to make this trade. This would effectively force blizzard to tune us in such a way that we would take sustainable damage with minimal Ironskin Brew uptime or enfore such high haste requirements that we can run IsB 100% with spare charges.

Guardian Druids are really strong at the moment since their Mastery is by design effectively passive damage mitigation (max hp and healing received) and their physical and magic cooldowns/mitigation are based on resource generation only without any cooldowns (and the amplitude of Ironfur can be stacked on demand if needed). This is the baseline rotational toolkit, on top of this they also have Survival Instincts, Barkskin, Pulverize, Earthwarden. While I dislike doing tank-to-tank comparisons, if a boss was tuned so that you'd need a Guardian druid's entire toolkit I would be very worried tanking such a boss as a Brewmaster.

This reminds me of how Brewmasters felt in BRF, so it might just be that Guardians are overtuned but even if they nerf numerical factors, the design of the spec is still solid enough to handle most situations.

I've also noticed from your logs, that total avoidance is pretty unstable between pulls of Il'gynoth. The range is between 25% and 40%. And you have 20% of base avoidance and 23% of mastery which means effective dodge gain from mastery has a huge spread from 5% to 20%, which is not good at all.

Thats means we are pretty random-based tanks: random % of avoidance, random spheres, random double heal...
Only stagger is our non-random damage reduction.

Well ye, but that's the nature of our mastery, right? Can't expect it to average out to a consistent number if it's meant to be smoothing damage. What I'm more worried about is the amount of mastery required to make it barely noticable. For example the log below shows Nightmarish Fury which is a sort of fast high-damage autoattack spam on the tank and the avoidance from the mastery was barely noticable.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...33&view=events

Don't get me wrong, it can sometimes look like this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...33&view=events

But I would never expect it to be reliable enough not to use a "cooldown" (Ironskin Brew) for it so it might as well not be there. The way mastery is designed it's only really useful if all of the damage events that can trigger it are of the same size (ie. consistent 500k melee hits). If there's mobs with different damage amplitudes or attack speeds (or the previous boss, with an autoattack damage range of 0.5m-1.5m) it adds another layer of RNG on top which really makes it hit or miss on certain fights. In order for it to be consistent I would expect the RNG on our dodges to be deterministic when the Mastery Buff is active, ie. have RPPM-like bad luck prevention or even some sort of Entropy system like in Path of Exile.

[gregstafelam]

Also, Flaming Keg can crit!

(for 2 damage)

Good to know, now we look balanced

[GhostFoot]

Before Brewmasters were added to the alpha, our artifact ability was the vague but flavorful Wanderer's Special. "Drink deep from Fu Zan's special Brew, granting you the power of flaming breath, fortitude, or elusiveness." 1.25m CD. Strange ability, but one that fit the fantasy and looked really promising with some shaping!

But, then we got Flaming Keg... A glorified but gutted Dizzying Haze...?

Does anyone else feel the squandered potential here?

Our sibling spec, Mistweavers have Thunder Focus Tea, which creates some dynamic choices when healing. After reading the feedback, I've noticed Brewmasters (and many tank specs) don't have much choice anymore. A correct rotation is the rotation used on CD in most circumstances. What I'd suggest is the previous iteration of our artifact ability with the interaction of Thunder Focus Tea to help provide the ability to choose. Drinking in WoW has always been about several servings and mixing ingredients or brews (remember combining papayas, oranges and naners in Sholazar Basin? or even the upcoming questline for this very artifact??), so why would the spec about brews, wielding the artifact equipped with a keg, not be about ... booze?

The following are examples based on my suggestion above, so view them lightly,

Wanderer's Special Brew: Instant, 1min cooldown. CD reduced by Keg Smash and Tiger Palm.
Drink deep from Fu Zan's special brew, empowering your next ability.

Breath of Fire: Does not trigger a cooldown.
Keg Smash: Deals additional damage over 6 sec.
Ironskin Brew: Grants 15% of max HP as an absorption shield.
Purifying Brew: Consume all GotO within 20 yrds, and healing for an additional amount over 6 sec.

Just ideas, but something like this aligns with the fantasy of the spec by mixing brews to greater effect, far more compelling than just a flaming keg. It also offers some flexibility, a-la Thunder Focus Tea; A preemptive shield, a reactionary heal. My suggestions also cling to the idea of abilities (Guard, Expel Harm) we lost in Legion that I think in same way, should return. :/ I also think GotO should heal for half as much and appear twice as frequently to help combat the randomness of the heal.

Sadly I don't have access to the Alpha, or the Alpha forums, so if anyone agrees enough with this they're welcome to post it.

[The Madgod]

Before Brewmasters were added to the alpha, our artifact ability was the vague but flavorful Wanderer's Special. "Drink deep from Fu Zan's special Brew, granting you the power of flaming breath, fortitude, or elusiveness." 1.25m CD. Strange ability, but one that fit the fantasy and looked really promising with some shaping!

But, then we got Flaming Keg... A glorified but gutted Dizzying Haze...?

Honestly that idea was doomed to failure from the start. It would need to be entirely revamped to be useful, let alone fun. The randomness of whether or not you get a damage buff, a meaningful defensive buff, or dodge is really bad when you want this button to do a certain job.

Flaming Keg is Dizzying Haze but only in the activation mechanics of it. It's mainly an AoE damage reduction CD and honestly it's a cool button. The issue stems from trying to equate it in use to DH when that's not its intention.

[GhostFoot]

I always hate this comment, but, did you read the rest of my post?

[The Madgod]

Yeah I did. I didn't want to get into too much with the idea because on one hand it was an idea I had with regards to changing up that ability. Having something that does multiple things. There's not much for me to add to it other than changing how some work because some things would be too much of a dominant strategy.

The problem I have is... I'm not convinced that Flaming Keg is bad gameplay. In gamedev, you work with what you have until it doesn't work, then you try something else. I'm not wholly comfortable engaging in a conversation on a change until I see reason for Flaming Keg needing to go. Mainly because it's intended as direct feedback to the devs and not just a hypothetical.

[stross01]

Before Brewmasters were added to the alpha, our artifact ability was the vague but flavorful Wanderer's Special. "Drink deep from Fu Zan's special Brew, granting you the power of flaming breath, fortitude, or elusiveness." 1.25m CD. Strange ability, but one that fit the fantasy and looked really promising with some shaping!

But, then we got Flaming Keg... A glorified but gutted Dizzying Haze...?

Does anyone else feel the squandered potential here?

Our sibling spec, Mistweavers have Thunder Focus Tea, which creates some dynamic choices when healing. After reading the feedback, I've noticed Brewmasters (and many tank specs) don't have much choice anymore. A correct rotation is the rotation used on CD in most circumstances. What I'd suggest is the previous iteration of our artifact ability with the interaction of Thunder Focus Tea to help provide the ability to choose. Drinking in WoW has always been about several servings and mixing ingredients or brews (remember combining papayas, oranges and naners in Sholazar Basin? or even the upcoming questline for this very artifact??), so why would the spec about brews, wielding the artifact equipped with a keg, not be about ... booze?

The following are examples based on my suggestion above, so view them lightly,

Wanderer's Special Brew: Instant, 1min cooldown. CD reduced by Keg Smash and Tiger Palm.
Drink deep from Fu Zan's special brew, empowering your next ability.

Breath of Fire: Does not trigger a cooldown.
Keg Smash: Deals additional damage over 6 sec.
Ironskin Brew: Grants 15% of max HP as an absorption shield.
Purifying Brew: Consume all GotO within 20 yrds, and healing for an additional amount over 6 sec.

Just ideas, but something like this aligns with the fantasy of the spec by mixing brews to greater effect, far more compelling than just a flaming keg. It also offers some flexibility, a-la Thunder Focus Tea; A preemptive shield, a reactionary heal. My suggestions also cling to the idea of abilities (Guard, Expel Harm) we lost in Legion that I think in same way, should return. :/ I also think GotO should heal for half as much and appear twice as frequently to help combat the randomness of the heal.

Sadly I don't have access to the Alpha, or the Alpha forums, so if anyone agrees enough with this they're welcome to post it.

I agree with your stance on Flaming Keg; it is indeed a heap of crap in its current incarnation. Its reduction is trivial and its travel time is immense.

I'm going to assume that their great silence on the official thread means that great changes are coming, as the current iteration of brewmaster is terrible through-and-through; there is nothing good about it.

I don't like the idea of the Wanderer's Brew, though. Having all-or-nothing mechanics give you something you didn't want most of the time.

We do need something better than walking over an Ox orb to heal, though.

Also, in your deepest desperation, try not to post ideas or concerns here. This is definitely a place where Blizzard, and every god, turn a blind eye to. Post them on the alpha forums or find someone that can. I'm pretty sure they're public to anyone to read. Everyone in the official thread would be more than eager to post them.