[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[v1perz53]

Which sounds useful during an enrage dps check during progression but worthless otherwise. Auto attacks are never going to kill any tank.

Sounds like the ability was made for old challenge modes which are now gone because that sounds like the only area where it would have been constantly useful.

It was far better as a defensive when it was the flat 30% DR.

What in the world are you talking about? In the absence of auto attacks no boss ability will ever kill a tank, abilities are by design predictable and able to be planned around. It is the combination of telegraphed big hit abilities and un(less)predictable auto attacks that becomes dangerous, if you give a 3 second window free from auto attacks every boss ability becomes FAR easier to deal with. Honestly, this design is exactly what I want from an artifact ability, interesting mechanically and very strong if used correctly, but not just a random X% damage reduction. I guess it is just kind of funny that the one tank who got an interesting artifact ability is also the one tank that could've used a short CD X% DR in their toolkit, but I still prefer this design.

[Tech614]

have you ever tanked mythic velhari, who 100 to 0 you in 2 or 3 auto attacks??

Sure, if you're idiot that doesn't have something up during the dangerous parts of the fight. 3 auto attacks wouldn't replace any CDs during that fight at all. The auto attacks are not dangerous, the low health pool and later stacking buff are what is dangerous. The auto attacks can simply kill you as a side effect of not preparing for this.

This is of course besides the fact that if you're indeed bad and find that fight hard to live through(on a brewmaster no less its lulz worthy) a disc priest can trivialize the tank damage completely.

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What in the world are you talking about? In the absence of auto attacks no boss ability will ever kill a tank, abilities are by design predictable and able to be planned around. It is the combination of telegraphed big hit abilities and un(less)predictable auto attacks that becomes dangerous, if you give a 3 second window free from auto attacks every boss ability becomes FAR easier to deal with. Honestly, this design is exactly what I want from an artifact ability, interesting mechanically and very strong if used correctly, but not just a random X% damage reduction. I guess it is just kind of funny that the one tank who got an interesting artifact ability is also the one tank that could've used a short CD X% DR in their toolkit, but I still prefer this design.

False. What kills you is not having something up during a period of burst damage. Auto Attacks are not burst damage. Coming from someone that has killed every end boss as a tank within 2 months of their release since WOTLK(and many in far less time then that) never once has an auto attack been an issue with dealing with nor would 3 seconds of immunity had saved a wipe outside of enrage checks.

If auto attacks where ever dangerous to you, then you should fire your healers who clearly pay you no attention.

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Autos are most of the damage you're going to take now, but it also works on non-autoattacks. It also works on any player abilities in PVP. Being able to stop multiple millions of damage every 1 min and 15 seconds is pretty incredible in a raid setting. Making a rogue miss a 5cp Kidney shot is pretty incredible in a PVP setting. The uses are there and noticeable.

Also, it was 15% for 6 seconds, which isn't even remotely close to one missed hit, let alone three seconds of missed attacks.

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Also, got an answer about the removal of "Active Mitigation".

Autos where always most of the damage you take outside of some very rare situations, that doesn't make them dangerous. Predictable, swing timer damage is not dangerous no matter if it's hitting for 90% of your health in every hit. You would just cd and heal around it. What kills a tank is when something unpredictable happens, and fixing it involves making sure you can predict it and know why it happens. Hint: it never has to do with auto attacks.

The fact it works on non auto attacks in pvp is irreverent when you realize no boss ability is going to be miss able. Could care less about pvp implications, after all this is a discussion about tanking in PVE.

Then again you're the same guy who thinks useful abilities are worthless so it's not surprising you have the opposite opinion here. Have you ever actually tanked real progression? Or are you just here with the hopes and dreams that Brewmaster will be viable in PVP lmao?

[stross01]

Autos where always most of the damage you take outside of some very rare situations, that doesn't make them dangerous. Predictable, swing timer damage is not dangerous no matter if it's hitting for 90% of your health in every hit. You would just cd and heal around it. What kills a tank is when something unpredictable happens, and fixing it involves making sure you can predict it and know why it happens. Hint: it never has to do with auto attacks.

The fact it works on non auto attacks in pvp is irreverent when you realize no boss ability is going to be miss able. Could care less about pvp implications, after all this is a discussion about tanking in PVE.

Then again you're the same guy who thinks useful abilities are worthless so it's not surprising you have the opposite opinion here. Have you ever actually tanked real progression? Or are you just here with the hopes and dreams that Brewmaster will be viable in PVP lmao?

Let me begin with something you don't know: healer mana matters. Preventing damage of that magnitude is immense. It changes the entire fight for everyone involved. You've got to have a pretty tiny brain to not realize that at a simple glance.

If you've not experienced any of the beta, let me clue you in. You're not going to die from spike damage. You're going to find yourself out of options and staring death in the face. The tank running out of resources and the healer running out of mana are the only threats to your life at this time, not the spike damage. Pairing mechanics with auto attacks is what kills tanks in Warlords, hence the blue mentality of "if you're not full, you're dead". I can't believe I'm explaining this to, what I imagine, is a 13/13M tank. lol

I am the very same guy, yes. I have never not been at near cutting-edge progression at any point in this game. Don't worry: I know what I'm talking about. I believe completely the all specs will be viable in pvp, yes. They've removed the obstacles in the way of making it work, vengeance/resolve. But, this thread is about "[LEGION] Brewmaster" from what I can see, not strictly PVE or PVP.

EDIT: It does not many any known unavoidable attacks avoidable. However, a LOT, LOT of boss abilities can be dodged/parried. With the artifact trait, they automatically miss.

[Leblue]

I expect to see them fixing a lot of abilities it causes to miss in the future. At the same time some may stay. Probably won't know for sure till raid testing and even live. I'd personally still prefer an iron bark like cd, but this one isn't that awful anymore and with our mastery can create fairly large gaps of taking 0 non stagger damage.

[stross01]

I expect to see them fixing a lot of abilities it causes to miss in the future. At the same time some may stay. Probably won't know for sure till raid testing and even live. I'd personally still prefer an iron bark like cd, but this one isn't that awful anymore and with our mastery can create fairly large gaps of taking 0 non stagger damage.

It can only cause abilities that can be dodged/parried to miss.

If they removed that capability, it'd be back to circling the rim of the trash can for every non-pve setting.

What is your reasoning behind this thought?

[Deleted]

There are bosses with lethal auto attacks (Butcher sub 25%, Imperator, Tyrant P3) and bosses whose hits are mostly benign or at least passively handled. There's a use for the CD however you look at it.

I don't see why it has to sprawl over a 10-post toxic discussion on how the said poster is a) stupid b) casual c) a PVPer or d) all of the above. It would make this thread a lot more exciting and friendly to read if every response to Brewmaster changes on Legion Beta didn't eventually degrade to a variation of the previous sentence.

On the topic of CDs and our current state it seems that most tank artefact abilities are designed on enhancing the main ~damage reduction~ tanking theme of the class, ie. heals for DK and DH, flat reduction for Paladin, Druid; Critical blocks for warriors, dodge/miss for Monks). While it's appealing, I just don't see it as an "important" CD on a boss where melee damage is mostly benign. I would much prefer having an artifact CD which enhances gift of the ox or one that interacts with the stagger/purify combo (Serenity? Deal damage, make purify free for 6-9 seconds, 1.5min CD).

It is going to be a very stressful expansion for Brewmasters if they're going to continue shoving gift of the ox and dodging as a "tool" down our throats for the first couple tiers until our haste reaches levels where we purify aggressively with 100% (tanking-)uptime on ironskin. Even if they tune our passive damage reduction 1 week into the raid as they did last launch by buffing stagger amount and base armor, I would still feel much safer playing a tank that takes more damage and has 2-3 short CDs and a long one, than a monk with another dodge CD and FortBrew.

[arcuro]

Let me begin with something you don't know: healer mana matters. Preventing damage of that magnitude is immense. It changes the entire fight for everyone involved. You've got to have a pretty tiny brain to not realize that at a simple glance.

issnt that a special problem fpr BRM? our damage intake is either non existing with times of doges, artifact trait and PB+Purify combined OR it is high while only have PB and no Purify => high stagger dot, or no PB and only purify for high direct damage. so healers are either pumping heal into us or whaiting for damage intake and boom sudden hit.

i just cant see how BRM damage intake now is "smooth" in any way. it feels as binary as tanking in wotlk (well so i guess from reading alot. no beta key sadly..)

and the only thing we have is extra heal. no CD at all. so if we heal its either overheal because healers pumping into us or wasting healers mana because we can heal us full self.

im still extremly conserned about BRM sadly enough..

[Shenkz]

Maybe an experienced brewmaster theorycrafter can help me out here but.. how exactly are brewmasters going to scale into the 2nd or 3rd tier in Legion?

In my understanding stagger doesn't actually mitigate any damage just delay it. Other tank classes have some form of % AM that is mitigation so that will always scale with increasing damage done by higher tier mobs.

So the only actual scaling mitigation monks have is armor? and 6 and 8% dmg reduced artifact talents? I wouldn't say dodge is mitigation that is RNG avoidance and on live id say elusive brews is better as its 45% static when you need it, where the new mastery is a stacking chance when you dont dodge that increases until you dodge and then back to base, so its back and forth.

With armor the only thing scaling whats going to happen when we get to 3rd tier and bosses are hitting us and causing 80% stagger in one auto? On live we have guard,elusive brews, shuffle,-100% stagger PB and dampen harm is much stronger and lower cd, without that stuff, I just see us running out of charges at Legion tier 3 mythic raid just spamming purifying twice on autos that takes us to 80% + just to get out of danger for another auto and running out of charges? Can anyone elaborate?

[v1perz53]

issnt that a special problem fpr BRM? our damage intake is either non existing with times of doges, artifact trait and PB+Purify combined OR it is high while only have PB and no Purify => high stagger dot, or no PB and only purify for high direct damage. so healers are either pumping heal into us or whaiting for damage intake and boom sudden hit.

i just cant see how BRM damage intake now is "smooth" in any way. it feels as binary as tanking in wotlk (well so i guess from reading alot. no beta key sadly..)

and the only thing we have is extra heal. no CD at all. so if we heal its either overheal because healers pumping into us or wasting healers mana because we can heal us full self.

im still extremly conserned about BRM sadly enough..

It is more that in the current implementation of healers that it actually takes quite a few casts and effort to top anyone 20%->100%, so no one is ever really sitting at 100 getting spiked to 20, instead it is more "death by a thousand cuts". Just watch some of the recent raid testing videos, you can see how long it takes to heal someone up, a good 4-5 seconds of multiple healers concentrating on one target to get them up. As such, damage has to be tuned differently to remove huge spikes and instead be slow deaths. With this, mitigating auto attacks is much more important, as it is the only way you will be anywhere near full HP when the next burst ability hits allowing you to survive it.

Now, all this comes down to tuning. If they increase healer power and increase boss damage this all goes out the window. But as of now it seems like a purposeful direction change.

[stross01]

Maybe an experienced brewmaster theorycrafter can help me out here but.. how exactly are brewmasters going to scale into the 2nd or 3rd tier in Legion?

In my understanding stagger doesn't actually mitigate any damage just delay it. Other tank classes have some form of % AM that is mitigation so that will always scale with increasing damage done by higher tier mobs.

So the only actual scaling mitigation monks have is armor? and 6 and 8% dmg reduced artifact talents? I wouldn't say dodge is mitigation that is RNG avoidance and on live id say elusive brews is better as its 45% static when you need it, where the new mastery is a stacking chance when you dont dodge that increases until you dodge and then back to base, so its back and forth.

With armor the only thing scaling whats going to happen when we get to 3rd tier and bosses are hitting us and causing 80% stagger in one auto? On live we have guard,elusive brews, shuffle,-100% stagger PB and dampen harm is much stronger and lower cd, without that stuff, I just see us running out of charges at Legion tier 3 mythic raid just spamming purifying twice on autos that takes us to 80% + just to get out of danger for another auto and running out of charges? Can anyone elaborate?

Nobody knows how things will work later on. They've done no hard testing yet, if they will at all. They'll just resort to their standby: overbuff mid tier.

A paired Ironskin/Purify is our mitigation, along with the ones you mentioned. Our armor is the same as a rogue, as there is no stance that increases it or decreases damage taken. Elusive Brawler is better than Elusive Brew, especially when you realize that people are 20+ weeks into farm in HFC using the crit build in bis gear. In mythic dungeon gear, in Legion, you can get Elusive Brawler over 40%, making it pretty unlikely that you'll take 2-3 consecutive hits. The stacking people are talking about is not slow; it happens and you dodge within 1.5-3 seconds.

As it stands now, you do not purify that 80% stagger. You're apparently supposed to use your huge HP pool as a resource, which puts a lot of your tanking on the healer. You can kinda fiddle with incoming stagger a bit, when you reach the 35% mark, to spawn a bunch of orbs. You can keep the huge stagger on you while getting healed to keep your hp low to get great effect out of Gift of the Mists.

I've been running strictly Light Brewing for a while now, as I believe damage prevented it better than damage healed. Gift of the Mists stops being better once you're into mythic+.

[keqe]

Maybe an experienced brewmaster theorycrafter can help me out here but.. how exactly are brewmasters going to scale into the 2nd or 3rd tier in Legion?

In my understanding stagger doesn't actually mitigate any damage just delay it. Other tank classes have some form of % AM that is mitigation so that will always scale with increasing damage done by higher tier mobs.

So the only actual scaling mitigation monks have is armor? and 6 and 8% dmg reduced artifact talents? I wouldn't say dodge is mitigation that is RNG avoidance and on live id say elusive brews is better as its 45% static when you need it, where the new mastery is a stacking chance when you dont dodge that increases until you dodge and then back to base, so its back and forth.

With armor the only thing scaling whats going to happen when we get to 3rd tier and bosses are hitting us and causing 80% stagger in one auto? On live we have guard,elusive brews, shuffle,-100% stagger PB and dampen harm is much stronger and lower cd, without that stuff, I just see us running out of charges at Legion tier 3 mythic raid just spamming purifying twice on autos that takes us to 80% + just to get out of danger for another auto and running out of charges? Can anyone elaborate?

We the "power" of our mitigation scales just as well as other tanks like warrior. So if boss hits for 100k, and we stagger 70% of it, then purify for about 30% of it, we reduce the damage by 21000, which is 21%. (these numbers are just random examples, as not purifying instantly etc.). If boss hits for 500k, we reduce the damage by 105000, again 21%.

So the scaling is very similar to how shield block scales for warriors for example or SotR for paladins. That isn't the issue.

But the way we have to use 2 AM abilities with shared resource is an issue. It doesn't really cause issues with scaling between tiers, just scaling overall.

Also, with new raid tier, we get more secondary stats. More dodges, more incoming HPS, and more brews with haste. So Tier to tier scaling isn't really a problem as our "mitigation" is % based and we simply get more of it while using less with more gear.

The problem is balancing them overall.

[Tech614]

If you've not experienced any of the beta, let me clue you in.

You keep trying to use this strawman to win arguments against people in this thread when you're talking to someone who was in during alpha weeks before brewmaster was even playable.

Not even worth debating with you when you resort to tactics like that, pretty much stopped reading your post. The first line sounded like something straight from blizzard though.

LMAO Healer mana matters and spike damage won't kill you. AKA I'm a blizzard PR person at the start of every expansion.

[stross01]

You keep trying to use this strawman to win arguments against people in this thread when you're talking to someone who was in during alpha weeks before brewmaster was even playable.

Not even worth debating with you when you resort to tactics like that, pretty much stopped reading your post. The first line sounded like something straight from blizzard though.

LMAO Healer mana matters and spike damage won't kill you. AKA I'm a blizzard PR person at the start of every expansion.

I was in the first wave of alpha invites because of my guild's mythic Archimonde kill date, so that makes us even, in terms of experience. Assuming you're telling the truth or having done more than log in, saw everything broken, then logged out, never to be seen again.

But when you start using terms like "strawman", "ad hominem", and the rest of that pseudo-intellectual bullshit, my stance on you greatly changes to 'this guy has no clue'.

After many, many, MANY dungeons and world bosses, it seems like they're sticking to the no-spike philosophy. If you're experiencing a lot of spike deaths, you're playing wrong and I'd be more than happy to help you improve.

[v1perz53]

You keep trying to use this strawman to win arguments against people in this thread when you're talking to someone who was in during alpha weeks before brewmaster was even playable.

Not even worth debating with you when you resort to tactics like that, pretty much stopped reading your post. The first line sounded like something straight from blizzard though.

LMAO Healer mana matters and spike damage won't kill you. AKA I'm a blizzard PR person at the start of every expansion.

I mean, its cool if you want to judge things based on how it will turn out if everything blizz has said isn't true, or based on how things have turned out in the past, but it is probably a better idea to judge things based on how they actually currently work on the beta and how useful they are in actual current beta raid/dungeon testing and go from there... You know since that is actual gameplay data (that could absolutely change) as opposed to random conjecture.

[Tech614]

I mean, its cool if you want to judge things based on how it will turn out if everything blizz has said isn't true, or based on how things have turned out in the past, but it is probably a better idea to judge things based on how they actually currently work on the beta and how useful they are in actual current beta raid/dungeon testing and go from there... You know since that is actual gameplay data (that could absolutely change) as opposed to random conjecture.

Except there isn't a 2nd tier on the beta to test. There isn't a 3rd tier on the beta to test.

You seem to not be able to grasp the point that blizzard tries to pull this every expansion, and for the first tier it actually is the case(and the content is rather easy in the first place) then gear upgrades happen as new tiers come out and once again healer mana will not matter and they will have to develop mechanics that can achieve burst damage to kill tanks.

I mean, it's cool if you want to believe something that has failed to be the case what 4 times over now? I mean if you want to keep running to help the boy that cries wolf that's on you...

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After many, many, MANY dungeons and world bosses, it seems like they're sticking to the no-spike philosophy. If you're experiencing a lot of spike deaths, you're playing wrong and I'd be more than happy to help you improve.

I haven't experienced any spike deaths, I haven't encountered many dangerous situations period testing DH, Brewmaster and Guardian tanking at various points throughout.

Which is just like the start of every expansion ever, and means burst damage will be tuned in in future tiers to make tanks actually killable. This is the point you don't seem to be grasping. My guild has tested pretty much everything you have been able to test in the alpha/beta and outside of obvious broken circumstances that where un survivable the entire tank survival situation has been a complete joke and has not been the things we think will be difficulty about the mythic encounters at all.

Which like I said, is like the start of every expansion. It's hilarious you're buying blizzards bullshit again. Did you just start tanking recently? I can't imagine how anyone who has tanked multiple expansions over could not see the writing on the wall for what will happen once again. Just like blizzard is never going to deliver on their promise to not make final tiers last a year, they're never going to deliver on their promises of healer mana being meaningful and spike damage not happening over the course of an entire expansion. They make the model work when you're bare minimum gear in the first tier and after that it get's thrown at the window very fast.

[stross01]

I haven't experienced any spike deaths, I haven't encountered many dangerous situations period testing DH, Brewmaster and Guardian tanking at various points throughout.

Which is just like the start of every expansion ever, and means burst damage will be tuned in in future tiers to make tanks actually killable. This is the point you don't seem to be grasping. My guild has tested pretty much everything you have been able to test in the alpha/beta and outside of obvious broken circumstances that where un survivable the entire tank survival situation has been a complete joke and has not been the things we think will be difficulty about the mythic encounters at all.

Which like I said, is like the start of every expansion. It's hilarious you're buying blizzards bullshit again. Did you just start tanking recently? I can't imagine how anyone who has tanked multiple expansions over could not see the writing on the wall for what will happen once again. Just like blizzard is never going to deliver on their promise to not make final tiers last a year, they're never going to deliver on their promises of healer mana being meaningful and spike damage not happening over the course of an entire expansion. They make the model work when you're bare minimum gear in the first tier and after that it get's thrown at the window very fast.

I've been tanking since the TBC-prepatch. The spike damage that came with the advent of Siege, and all of Warlords, was new with them. The only spike deaths that existed before were very rare. Sarth 3d, Patchwerk fuckups, MAYBE Mother Shahraz, MAYBE a mega-undergeared/uneducated Prince Malchezzar tank.

They've already delivered on their promises of healer mana. If you're running with 3 DH's in your group, you probably don't have a realistic grasp of how things work, as one DH can do more damage than 3 of another generic spec, in both single target and AOE situations. It cuts your fight times down to 20% of normal or more. Even worse if you've been running with Rageshard scumbags.

Everything you've said makes me think that you really don't have a clue what you're talking about. And judging from your posts here and in every other thread you've been in for weeks, you seem like a bored youth with a great desire for contention and a complete disregard from decency.

[v1perz53]

Except there isn't a 2nd tier on the beta to test. There isn't a 3rd tier on the beta to test.

You seem to not be able to grasp the point that blizzard tries to pull this every expansion, and for the first tier it actually is the case(and the content is rather easy in the first place) then gear upgrades happen as new tiers come out and once again healer mana will not matter and they will have to develop mechanics that can achieve burst damage to kill tanks.

I mean, it's cool if you want to believe something that has failed to be the case what 4 times over now? I mean if you want to keep running to help the boy that cries wolf that's on you...

I mean, that's pretty much exactly the point. There's no 2nd or 3rd tier on beta to test. There is literally no way to have even the slightest clue how things will turn out so saying an ability is awful because things in the past have turned out a certain way is worthless because it is backed up by entirely nothing. And in addition, the only thing that needs to be balanced for launch is the first tier. Guardian druids had a similar issue with their Active Mitigation, guess what blizz did for later tiers? Just added a "-X% damage taken" to it. If it turns out the artifact ability is undertuned in later tiers if spike damage comes back, all it would take is something like that, easy peasy fix that blizzard has done before. But we don't know if that will be necessary because all the current fights tested work in such ways that the current version of the ability is strong. Until there is a singular thing tested that doesn't work well with the ability, it adds nothing to discussion to say it is bad.

But to discuss even further, two very big factors to thing about now are that healers have 0 mana regen from gear, meaning that their mana regen in the first and last tiers will be the exact same, and that resolve/vengeance is gone meaning (most) tanks will self heal FAR less and be much less able to deal with burst damage themselves. These two things were huge in affecting how much more spike damage needed to happen in later tiers to make a boss at all dangerous, and sometimes had pretty awful feedback loops (looking at you resolve). So a MW monk spamming Essence Font will go oom in exactly the same amount of time first or last tier, the EF will just heal for more during the latter. Again it could all fall apart in the end, but it is possible these fixes will somewhat address boss burst. But also, they totally might not, and the same thing will happen again, and at that time maybe Flaming Keg will need a change. But for now it is incredibly strong and to say it won't be for all of the content at legion launch as things are tuned and tested right now is simply wrong.

[Deleted]

Sure, if you're idiot that doesn't have something up during the dangerous parts of the fight. 3 auto attacks wouldn't replace any CDs during that fight at all. The auto attacks are not dangerous, the low health pool and later stacking buff are what is dangerous. The auto attacks can simply kill you as a side effect of not preparing for this.

This did make me lol a bit, low hp and a stacking buff doesn't do anything unless in the context of what actually kills you ala the actual melee hits
Saying that melee attacks weren't dangerous on early tyrant mythic is just trolling, simple as.

And did you do blackhand mythic(edit: NOT tanking on a brewmaster)? That boss where the best tanks in the world would just repeatedly cause wipes cos they got globalled before their double holy pala / disc priest combo could even heal them?

[Babylonius]

This thread has become nearly entirely personal attacks and arguing opinions. Please keep it civil and remember the best way to back up opinions is with facts.

The plural of anecdote isn't fact.

[Drodoo]

I've been playing around on the beta for a while, and I just can't help feel like they took everything that made a BrM fun, and gave it to the deamon hunter.
From the "spammy"/fast gameplay, to the superb mobility, to the self healing... just everything.
At the moment I just find BrM playstyle clumpy and just "meh". It just doesn't feel finished. While deamon hunter feels somewhat like the old BrM in too many ways.