[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[dcc626]

Fort ot tolerance imo. Depending on the situation of course but I prefer fort cuz you can stack it with ISB for a huge stagger if need be.

On another note though I have no idea what I'm going to do for the next two months now that I have pretty much made a decision on what I will play in Legion. Maybe mythic Dungeons, but the chance for decent gear that are upgrades seems pretty poor. I've ran close to 10 on my pally and pretty much got nothing out of them, and that damn trink never drops.

I'm just making gold tip pre patch, then I'll run mythic and HFCs for funzies til legion. Most of my guild will be back to figure out what they are playing by the time pre patch drops.

[arcuro]

on another note. wich legiondary will be more usefull? the one increasing stagger duration or the one reseting BoF after KS?
with ne new BoF artifact trait it seems usefull to:

BoF > KS > BoF after 8sec > KS to always have the DR up

[DisposableHero]

Not exactly, this same idea has been brought up in the Warrior forums and normally what is sad is that boss damaged also scales. So 2 tiers from now the boss is going to hit you for a lot more damage than in the first. So hopefully you will lose Health just as fast in the last tier as in the first.

Irrelevant - If I have a health pool of 3 million and the boss hits for 1 million unmittigated every 2 seconds, I will spawn an orb on every 3rd auto-attack. If I have a health pool of 4 million it will spawn an orb every 4th auto attack. Dying after 6 seconds of autoattacks with no heals and dying after 8 seconds of autoattacks with no heals is not substantially different in terms of how healable you are because you have to be pretty tuned out as a healer to go 6 seconds between heals on a tank when their health is low, but you will accrue 33% more healing orbs in the first case. This is true for ANY value of boss damage. Less health, more healing.

Regardless of what the boss is swinging for, if you're not getting globaled it is better to have lower health because you will have better self healing.

I'm not talking about stamina on higher ilvl gear, that is unavoidable. What is avoidable are 23 artifact traits dedicated to increasing max health that are likely to make our survivability WORSE instead of better.

I don't mind only having to spend 600k artifact power to "Max Out" the artifact rather than 65 million, but I am certain this is not the way blizzard intends for Brewmasters to progress.

[Sickjen]

Posted this on the beta forums:
"Having Black Ox Statue as a talent is not good for us since is one of the main tools for picking adds, and choosing between this and stunning them... is not very fun.

Suggestion: Why not replace the talent for Black Ox Statue with CLASH(yea the one we lost on MOP), since it's a stun row, it would make more sense, and is a different gameplay, also making the statue a default spell like it is on live

I really think it would make that talent row more interesting, and keep the statue that is one of the main tools we have"
What you guys think about it?

I miss clash dearly <333

[keqe]

Irrelevant - If I have a health pool of 3 million and the boss hits for 1 million unmittigated every 2 seconds, I will spawn an orb on every 3rd auto-attack. If I have a health pool of 4 million it will spawn an orb every 4th auto attack. Dying after 6 seconds of autoattacks with no heals and dying after 8 seconds of autoattacks with no heals is not substantially different in terms of how healable you are because you have to be pretty tuned out as a healer to go 6 seconds between heals on a tank when their health is low, but you will accrue 33% more healing orbs in the first case. This is true for ANY value of boss damage. Less health, more healing.

Regardless of what the boss is swinging for, if you're not getting globaled it is better to have lower health because you will have better self healing.

I'm not talking about stamina on higher ilvl gear, that is unavoidable. What is avoidable are 23 artifact traits dedicated to increasing max health that are likely to make our survivability WORSE instead of better.

I don't mind only having to spend 600k artifact power to "Max Out" the artifact rather than 65 million, but I am certain this is not the way blizzard intends for Brewmasters to progress.

While it technically could be better to have less HP to gain more healing, it would be double tip scaling which other specs don't have. It would be unbalanced by design.

It is really not any different from how Death Strike works. For certain amount of damage you take you heal a portion of it back. GotO works as a "buffer" in a same way.

[Valkaneer]

Irrelevant - If I have a health pool of 3 million and the boss hits for 1 million unmittigated every 2 seconds, I will spawn an orb on every 3rd auto-attack. If I have a health pool of 4 million it will spawn an orb every 4th auto attack. Dying after 6 seconds of autoattacks with no heals and dying after 8 seconds of autoattacks with no heals is not substantially different in terms of how healable you are because you have to be pretty tuned out as a healer to go 6 seconds between heals on a tank when their health is low, but you will accrue 33% more healing orbs in the first case. This is true for ANY value of boss damage. Less health, more healing.

Regardless of what the boss is swinging for, if you're not getting globaled it is better to have lower health because you will have better self healing.

I'm not talking about stamina on higher ilvl gear, that is unavoidable. What is avoidable are 23 artifact traits dedicated to increasing max health that are likely to make our survivability WORSE instead of better.

I don't mind only having to spend 600k artifact power to "Max Out" the artifact rather than 65 million, but I am certain this is not the way blizzard intends for Brewmasters to progress.

What I was getting at was about the double dipping. He said we were taking it two fold which really isn't the case. The way he makes it seem is that as if you had to take a lot more damage before you received in orb and that was a double dip. When really is not because it's being viewed wrong. Because it's not going to take you longer and longer before you can get an orb because you have more health. Everything is percentage base and the boss is going to hit you harder so you should still get orbs at the same rate of speed they will just be for Less.

[Julmara]

when we evade or parry a attack will it count to the health lost formula too ?

[Khandro]

I don't see why it would, since the calculation is on damage taken, not damage avoided

- - - Updated - - -

N
Recommend when Legion drops to give it roughly two levels or so before you write it off completely. It plays differently but it doesn't feel totally awful (at least for me and some others it doesn't). If you still don't like it then you might want to look into something else which sucks if you're really set on your Brewmaster =/.

So, what would be your advice for someone completely new to Brewmaster starting out at level 1? Hang in there until you get your artifact?

[Leblue]

I'm really sorry to be a total knob, I haven't had a chance to hop into Discord or go back through all the pages, but what are people's thoughts on the lvl 100 talents? Elusive Dance gives the illusion having more control over mitigation. Fortifying Mind feels less impactful without access to the golden Fortification artifact talent, High Tolerance I have no idea how to math it out!

You'll probably want High Tolerance or Fortification (based on the encounter or even dungeon you're doing and how you're doing them). They're all pretty much passive and Elusive Dance isn't that great relative to the other two anyway.

when we evade or parry a attack will it count to the health lost formula too ?

Nope, only when you actually take damage (After Damage reduction but before stagger).

So, what would be your advice for someone completely new to Brewmaster starting out at level 1? Hang in there until you get your artifact?

Most of the gameplay changes (outside of Obstinate Determination and Flaming Keg) are already there while leveling. By 54 you'll have access to every active ability in your rotation except for the option to talent into Rushing Jade Wind. A newer player should be able to figure out if that's what they want to do or not from there after a few hours of playing it. When I recommend the "few levels", I'm more recommending giving it a few hours of actual gameplay that's not just you wailing on a target dummy to get a feel for the spec to see how you feel about the flow as its easy to just write it off after about 15 minutes because it does play differently.

[Ampere]

Something also to be brought up is the amount of crit will also go up, so while yes baseline the heal for the % of your health goes down, the frequency of larger heals will increase with time. Volstatsz in the Monk discord was awesome enough to put together some charts showing the healing of Gift Orbs relative to HP and stats when I mentioned something about it because my look at it very much did not take into account frequency of the larger than base orbs.

https://images-1.discordapp.net/.eJw...C71xxsJs6I.png

Here's the full thing though: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3u...pGcG1yQUU/view

I dislike the large heal variance. I was so hopeful they were doing the static 25% hp heal per orb when it was announced in the class blogs.

100% - 660% is ughhhhh. I know Expel Harm and GotO on live can vary at least this much with trinket procs, resolve, etc, but it's something I was hoping to see go away with the removal of resolve. Particularly since you'd get big Expel Harms (from the resolve scaling) when you were taking a lot of damage, but now it's totally random.

[Leblue]

I don't necessarily disagree and its why I brought it up. With the artifacts, there's a huge variance on how large that heal can be. Crit obviously making you trend towards the higher end of it and the Overflow artifact trait adding an additional layer of that rng. That said, 25% itself may've been too much but even 10% of max health per heal then a possible crit, then a possible celestial fortune proc, and finally of course artifact traits. We just happen to have a mechanic that's been set up to have a few different ways of multiplying to make the heal significantly larger. Obviously goes against tanks valuing consistency.

[Deleted]

wow those new lvl 100 talents look amazing, never thought i would see the day

[Mokuna]

I don't know who's deciding these changes but they're really stupid, they make an interesting new lvl 100 talent and then they buff the other talents so much it prolly will never see use, none of the empowers seem worth it compared to 15% more purified/damage done/dodge or 10% stagger and a haste bonus

The fort brew cd nerfed from 5 to 7 minutes is even more stupid, instead of trying to time your cooldowns you'll have a 1 use per fight, maybe 2 during progress, and it will make it a nobrainer when to use it, i get this is probably to compensate the lvl 100 talents buff but a 7 minutes cd defensive is just plain stupid, if you want to make it less relevant you can nerf the effect, putting a cooldown so long it's a one use per fight is just dumbing down the class

[Deleted]

I don't know who's deciding these changes but they're really stupid, they make an interesting new lvl 100 talent and then they buff the other talents so much it prolly will never see use, none of the empowers seem worth it compared to 15% more purified/damage done/dodge or 10% stagger and a haste bonus

The fort brew cd nerfed from 5 to 7 minutes is even more stupid, instead of trying to time your cooldowns you'll have a 1 use per fight, maybe 2 during progress, and it will make it a nobrainer when to use it, i get this is probably to compensate the lvl 100 talents buff but a 7 minutes cd defensive is just plain stupid, if you want to make it less relevant you can nerf the effect, putting a cooldown so long it's a one use per fight is just dumbing down the class

you realize keg smash and tiger palm now reduce cooldown of fortifying brew right? so the cooldown will probably be lower than before (especially with the new lvl 100 talent)

[Rilas13]

@Mokuna, In an active rotation I expect it to be around 3.5 min. They made the previous talent baseline so its not actually 7 min unless you are out of battle. I am not sure why you don't like the changes though. We have been begging for just one of them to be modified since Alpha released. We just got a revamp of the tier, couldn't be happier.

*Edit, @Itsab11. Didn't see this before I posted lol.

[Talrial]

I don't know who's deciding these changes but they're really stupid, they make an interesting new lvl 100 talent and then they buff the other talents so much it prolly will never see use, none of the empowers seem worth it compared to 15% more purified/damage done/dodge or 10% stagger and a haste bonus

The fort brew cd nerfed from 5 to 7 minutes is even more stupid, instead of trying to time your cooldowns you'll have a 1 use per fight, maybe 2 during progress, and it will make it a nobrainer when to use it, i get this is probably to compensate the lvl 100 talents buff but a 7 minutes cd defensive is just plain stupid, if you want to make it less relevant you can nerf the effect, putting a cooldown so long it's a one use per fight is just dumbing down the class

It seems they are making Tiger Palm and Keg Smash baseline reduce the cd on Fort Brew. I still dont agree with the change because I personally would like an additional short CD and with this change and a 5 min Fort brew it wouldnt be as bad, so it doesnt feel like much of a bonus now.

[Mokuna]

I didn't think "your brews" included fort brew but were just a simpler way to say ironskin/purifying brew

So if you take that into account, let's say you get a keg smash every 7 seconds and 15 energy per second, in 1 minute you're gonna get 9 keg smash and 1000 energy(assuming you start with 100), so 1000-40*9=640 energy left for tiger palm, so about 12 tiger palms, you'll reduce fort brew cd by around 9*4+12*1=48 seconds every minute

That means the average cd of fort brew would be t where 480-(60+48)*t=0, so t=480/108=4.44 minutes

So it would indeed be reduced in case of a nearly perfect rotation and a high uptime, my bad, I still can't see the new lvl 100 talent coming close to the buffed ones tho, it doesn't look close on paper...

More complicated maths if people want to plot the scaling

Let's call e the energy regen, k the keg smash cd and t fortifying brew's cd in minutes

Energy available per minute: 100+60*e (approximation we start at 100 energy every minute which won't be the case but it's a really small one)

Keg smash per minute: 60/k

Energy available for Tiger palm: 100+60e-60/k*40=100+60e-2400/k

Tiger palm per minute: [100+60e-60/k*40=100+60e-2400/k ]/50

Cd reduction: 60/k*4+ [100+60e-60/k*40=100+60e-2400/k ]/50 *1

Fort Brew Cd: 480-(60+60/k*4+ [100+60e-60/k*40=100+60e-2400/k ]/50 *1)*t=0

So t=480/ [(60+60/k*4+ [100+60e-60/k*40=100+60e-2400/k ]/50 ]

So now left to do: find e and k related to your haste rating, and you can plot fort brew cd in function of haste directly

[Ampere]

I think the Fortifying Brew change is bad overall. It just makes the actual CD of the ability less transparent, and punishes you a bit for dungeons where there's downtime between trash packs. Just set the CD to 3 or 4 minutes or whatever and leave it alone.

The level 100 talent changes are really good. They might need to iterate for balance in that row, but at least they aren't as boring now.

[stross01]

I don't know who's deciding these changes but they're really stupid, they make an interesting new lvl 100 talent and then they buff the other talents so much it prolly will never see use, none of the empowers seem worth it compared to 15% more purified/damage done/dodge or 10% stagger and a haste bonus

The fort brew cd nerfed from 5 to 7 minutes is even more stupid, instead of trying to time your cooldowns you'll have a 1 use per fight, maybe 2 during progress, and it will make it a nobrainer when to use it, i get this is probably to compensate the lvl 100 talents buff but a 7 minutes cd defensive is just plain stupid, if you want to make it less relevant you can nerf the effect, putting a cooldown so long it's a one use per fight is just dumbing down the class

The Tiger Palm empower has the chance to be one of our hardest hitting abilities if it lands with the artifact trait. The Breath of Fire one gives us an almost 100% uptime 6% damage reduction. The Keg Smash one is less impressive, but still not totally discounted. The Ironskin Brew one sucks. The Purifying Brew one is going to be pretty awesome, as some of the mythic+ affixes will leave you with red stagger after purifying a red stagger.

The Elusive Dance change is pretty impressive, as well. A huge uptime 15% dodge and damage is fairly raw.

High Tolerance seems good if you want a talent you never need to worry about.

[Mokuna]

More than a talent you never want to worry about, 10% stagger isn't 10% damage reduction, the higher you go in stagger the more ridiculous it gets, having 45% baseline stagger instead of 35 means you'll take 55% of the initial damage, instead of 65, it's 15.4% less upfront damage (!)

Now with ironskin brew up you'll get to 85% instead of 75%, so you'll take 15% of the initial damage instead of 25%, it's 40% less upfront damage, that's brf level of staggering, except you don't have guard and you can't purify that often, but it's pretty safe to assume you won't ever be able to be spiked down through ironskin brew with this talent, in my opinion it's nowhere comparable to a small damage gain from tiger palm, or a stagger tick stop, or a bit of uptime on a 6% damage reduction, not to mention the 15% haste you'll get from it will give you a better brew generation