[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Babylonius]

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I'm confused as to what you're looking for the spec to do. Are you looking to fill every global? Because that's just not practical for any energy class at the start of an expansion. If you're just using what you have available then you're missing out on a lot of DPS by not planning things out ahead of time.

Abilities like Chi Wave and WDP are more than fillers, they're good damage abilities that should be considered part of the priority, not just extraneous stuff.

I'm confused as to what you're looking for the spec to do, WW is considered the smoothest, most fluid rotation in Legion. Maybe you could clarify?

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Any opinion about trinkets in the incoming pre-patch ?

Stone of the Elements sims higher for me than Soul Capacitor for 7.0 simcraft.

It seems that it's the same for feral druids.
http://www.fluiddruid.net/forum/view...37b09e069c513f

Soul Cap was creamed. SDI, Anzus, heirloom, and Stone are all solid choices.

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I used a 110 beta character with max artifact on a raiding dummy. Here's some quick 15 minute comparisons:

3-X-1-X-X-3-2 WDP build: 143,388 dps

Opener was ToD > SEF > EE > FoF > SotW > TP > RSK > WDP. Priority was FoF > SotW > RSK > WDP.

3-X-1-X-X-3-3 Serenity build: 153,069 dps

Opener was ToD > EE > Serenity > FoF > SotW > RSK > BoK > Chi Wave > BoK. Held ToD 1 minute for every other Serenity because of Gale Burst, and 5 ToDs at 145% is more damage than 7 ToDs at 100%. Held every 3rd SotW for ~20s per Serenity. Held one FoF for ~10 sec per Serenity. Serenity window was ToD > Serenity > FoF > SotW > RSK > BoK > Chi Wave > BoK.

Not stellar play on either of the logs, had a few lag hiccups cause a Hit Combo loss. Ultimately, though, Serenity did seem to be doing more consistently.

That may work, I certainly didn't put all those conditions into the sims to hold all those abilities for Serenity. I tested to hold Serenity until those cooldowns were available, so I'll try it the other way at some point and include Saving for Gale Burst. Thanks for the ideas. We're working on how to handle Serenity in the sims, we should have a good idea over the next few weeks.

[Butosai]

I just wanted to add it might be worth cycling between TP and BoK on the pull to build up hit combo before you unload with ToD and Serenity

[Uriel]

I'm confused as to what you're looking for the spec to do. Are you looking to fill every global? Because that's just not practical for any energy class at the start of an expansion. If you're just using what you have available then you're missing out on a lot of DPS by not planning things out ahead of time.

Abilities like Chi Wave and WDP are more than fillers, they're good damage abilities that should be considered part of the priority, not just extraneous stuff.

I'm confused as to what you're looking for the spec to do, WW is considered the smoothest, most fluid rotation in Legion. Maybe you could clarify?

I am sorry let me try again.

When I was reading the early Alpha Ideas published by Blizzard I thought that every second global would be Tiger Palm. Every other global would then be a chi ability. Something like this:

TP>RSK>TP>RJW>TP>FoF...>TP>BOK>TP>RSK and so on.
However in most cases I lack the energy to use Tigerpalm after three or so uses and need to fill that empty space with something else or just wait. So my first guess was using chi wave since it doesn't cost me anything since I want to pool chi for more important stuff like burst windows or an upcoming SotW. However during chiwaves cooldown it happens several more times that I encounter such empty spaces in the rotation were I can't hit Tigerpalm if I want to thus having to use something else that actually cost chi.

Naturally with only 8% haste like on the premate PVP on Beta Servers those gaps are longer and more often.. I get that. On the PTR however my toon got 24% haste. Although way smoother than 8% I still encounter those gaps.

My question would be how much haste a WW has in Dungeon blue gear? Or maybe in First tier raid gear?
The reason is that I like to know if 24% is near the endvalue of haste so regardless of Gear I have to life with those hickups in the rotation or maybe 24% is a joke and you can pull off 40 or 50% or [Insert certain energy value] when energy comes in faster than I can push 2 globals. I don't mind such hickups during leveling with low haste values, but if that isn't the case even in endgear I will need to look for another toon cause I just cant stand those hickups. Maybe it is just me.

I hope I clearified my point more.

[Hinalover]

First up found a few bugs (Serenity reducing damage instead of increasing damage was the big issue) but basically I think the WW monk module is ready for pre-legion patch.

Ok, started working on talent combinations for pre-legion content (will get to 110 this week sometime) and surprisingly, most of the talent combinations are FAIRLY CLOSE.

http://hinalover.altervista.org/SimC/results_html.html

T15 and T45 are pretty close for all combinations, and Whirling Dragon Punch and Serenity are fairly even in their value for single target. Hit Combo is tops for single target. Haven't done any AoE testing yet. Will attempt trinket tests next.

I don't know when a release canidate for SimC will be released but plan to have an updated profile for T18 set up tonight.

[Damaind]

I don't think WW are weak (rather, upper middle of the pack most likely and great for mythic+ dungeons). Don't mistake my complaints about their tuning process.

But that's as a whole package, not on an individual talent/trait basis. And there's no way you're going to be able to spin Death Art and Light On Your Feet as good traits to dump weeks of artifact power grinding on.

Chi Orbit will NEVER be used in any context outside casual leveling dungeons, Serenity takes far more effort to pull off WDP yet contains notable drawbacks, Energizing Elixir is an indisputable choice (also terribly designed, using it mostly for the chi and overcapping energy in the process).

You can't say tuning is where it should be when the gap between talents is going to bury several talents, some artifact traits are dead traits, and our self healing with effuse is pitiful and PvP state is weak, which is largely why WW's an an inferior melee to warriors/DK/DH.



A massive nerf to a massively overperforming class, nice omission. Enhancement shaman has no less terrible survivability than WW or DH (whose survival also got nerfed, so they're the glass cannon of melee in PvP), and Healing Surge heals for more than Effuse.

Enhancement shaman with Windwalk Totem essentially now bring a better version of Stampeding Roar ever since they nerfed stampeding roar for ferals and removed it from balance druids. DH's utility is their mobility and ability to cheese mechanics (on top of their raid cd, which WW's don't even have).

And quite frankly, there's not much to say to your "boring as fuck" argument for demonhunters. WW's aren't exactly rocket science, and if you wanted a challenging spec you'd be playing the new demonology warlock or unholy DK/feral druid with Savage Roar/Jagged Wounds.

Arms is the real "glass cannon" for mDPS and next being Frost DK or DH. As for Chi Orbit I couldn't agree more...such a boring talent with no interaction WDP at least has some slight planning involved(but as you say has some inherent issues) As for Serenity... I'm beyond shocked that it even made it into the final cut... such a boring uninspired talent... flat 40% with a semi pseudo lust built in. Flat % DPS CDs shouldn't exist IMO no game play involved with them just a numbers increase at a click of a button, no skill needed to press a button and get more damage.

FINALLY someone agrees with me... WW isn't rocket science and its not hard in the slightest, it took me 1 sitting of about 3 hours to get adjusted to the new WW.... I'll give anyone 2 weeks to learn it and if you cant do it i'm sorry... but there's no way you can be that bad.

(not claiming I'm a pro WW but the basic concept isn't hard to grasp...honestly)

[Shoeboots]

First up found a few bugs (Serenity reducing damage instead of increasing damage was the big issue) but basically I think the WW monk module is ready for pre-legion patch.

Ok, started working on talent combinations for pre-legion content (will get to 110 this week sometime) and surprisingly, most of the talent combinations are FAIRLY CLOSE.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ults_html.html

T15 and T45 are pretty close for all combinations, and Whirling Dragon Punch and Serenity are fairly even in their value for single target. Hit Combo is tops for single target. Haven't done any AoE testing yet. Will attempt trinket tests next.

I don't know when a release canidate for SimC will be released but plan to have an updated profile for T18 set up tonight.

Thanks for this. Your T45 findings are particularly interesting as the consensus prior to this seems to have been quite different. Any thoughts on why? Also, I saw that you haven't done any AoE testing yet but do you have an opinion yet on when RJW becomes superior? 2 targets? Or a single target fight with an adds phase?

[Babylonius]

Thanks for this. Your T45 findings are particularly interesting as the consensus prior to this seems to have been quite different. Any thoughts on why? Also, I saw that you haven't done any AoE testing yet but do you have an opinion yet on when RJW becomes superior? 2 targets? Or a single target fight with an adds phase?

If you're "consensus" was at all based on my testing, it's because I never tested prepatch stuff, just for 110 stuff.

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@Uriel you shouldn't have something to cast every single global, that's not how the spec is designed and it's not how any energy class is at the start of the expansion. To be able to cast Tiger Palm every 2nd global, you'd have to generate 25 energy per second which requires about 150% haste which is considerably unattainable.

[Hinalover]

Ok, finished with trinkets for pre-patch.

http://hinalover.altervista.org/SimC...t_compare.html

RPPM trinkets got nerfed both in how often they proc and how they proc at the start of the fight. As I mentioned before, RPPM effects will no longer have a high chance to proc at the start of the fight. Conversly a lot of HFC trinket's have had their proc rate dropped. This in turn allows underused trinkets such as Chipped Soul Prism and Stone of the Elements to be really good; even against Mythic quality trinkets.

I'll try to get the Heirloom info up soon (using the same link).

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Here is the sims for if the target is a demon. Heirlooms comes out on top. Re-running the sims (and uploading in the previous link) if the target is NOT a demon

http://hinalover.altervista.org/SimC...are_demon.html

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Updated the original link with Heirloom and normal and heroic versions of the Monk trinket against non-demon mobs.

[Babylonius]

I posted a short guide for what you need to know for the Prepatch:

http://www.walkingthewind.com/2016/0...-to-pre-patch/

[Xiomar]

I just wanted to add it might be worth cycling between TP and BoK on the pull to build up hit combo before you unload with ToD and Serenity

I agree about building Hit Combo up. Although I do not run Serenity as I prefer the rotation of WDP and SEF as the fight develops.

I find this opening sequence on my Beta character to be effective in building up my hit combo and maximising dps single target:
TP>BoK>Chi Wave>TP>RSK>EE>SEF>ToD>FoF>WDP>SoWL>

I run Chi Wave, EE, Hit Combo, and WDP as talents... due to a glitch a while back the FoF trait on my weapon got moved from the clockwise side of the artifact to the ToD side so it enabled me to take the single ToD trait with the 8 second buff.

[Darkoxa]

I agree about building Hit Combo up. Although I do not run Serenity as I prefer the rotation of WDP and SEF as the fight develops.

I find this opening sequence on my Beta character to be effective in building up my hit combo and maximising dps single target:
TP>BoK>Chi Wave>TP>RSK>EE>SEF>ToD>FoF>WDP>SoWL>

I run Chi Wave, EE, Hit Combo, and WDP as talents... due to a glitch a while back the FoF trait on my weapon got moved from the clockwise side of the artifact to the ToD side so it enabled me to take the single ToD trait with the 8 second buff.

What talents using whit this rotation?

[Aracs]

I posted a short guide for what you need to know for the Prepatch:

http://www.walkingthewind.com/2016/0...-to-pre-patch/

Why in your rotation SotW so low priority? And in "4 OR MORE TARGET ROTATION" there is no SotW at all?
I think DPS-wise it should be top priority, since FoF is chanelled and SotW is instant.

Can you please explain that rotation?

[Xiomar]

What talents using whit this rotation?

Chi Wave, Energising Elixir, Hit Combo, Whirling Dragon Punch are the relevant dps ones I use...

[Darkoxa]

Chi Wave, Energising Elixir, Hit Combo, Whirling Dragon Punch are the relevant dps ones I use...

Okay my dude too is if i lose dps when i wait chargue energy. Normally no use class that use energy. And now that shama enhacement or Monk ww use maelstorm and energy. In PTR i havent thought that lose dps.

[tru]

I've despised monk since their inception. I'll have to say just on the ptr I've really enjoyed the base rotation and I'm pretty certain I'll make ww my main for legion. It feels fun and looks good. Cant wait to see what legion brings. Now I just have to decide on a race.

[Pandragon]

Is the Empowered Ring of the Kirin Tor gonna be worth getting?

[Darkoxa]

I've despised monk since their inception. I'll have to say just on the ptr I've really enjoyed the base rotation and I'm pretty certain I'll make ww my main for legion. It feels fun and looks good. Cant wait to see what legion brings. Now I just have to decide on a race.

I am totally according with you, happened with you. Enhacement and WW FTW

[Deleted]

Why in your rotation SotW so low priority? And in "4 OR MORE TARGET ROTATION" there is no SotW at all?
I think DPS-wise it should be top priority, since FoF is chanelled and SotW is instant.

Can you please explain that rotation?

It is because that guide is meant for the prepatch, where we won't have the Artifact weapons yet, and therefore we won't have SotW available.

For Legion, SotW will be up there together with FoF and WDP (if you choose to go for that).

Edit: My bad, just saw the rotation you meant, and it is actually missing SotW even for Legion.

[Aracs]

It is because that guide is meant for the prepatch, where we won't have the Artifact weapons yet, and therefore we won't have SotW available.

For Legion, SotW will be up there together with FoF and WDP (if you choose to go for that).

Yes I mean rotations for Legion (not pre-patch). In that rotations SotW is lower in priority than FoF. But dps-wise SotW has higher DPS than FoF (because of FoF cast-time).

[Deleted]

Yes I mean rotations for Legion (not pre-patch). In that rotations SotW is lower in priority than FoF. But dps-wise SotW has higher DPS than FoF (because of FoF cast-time).

Yeah, I saw it just after I posted. I dont know, might (should?) be an error.