[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Babylonius]

Starting a separate thread for each spec so that the guide threads can remain about the current game.

[Deleted]

Monks looking so smooth and clean now. Tigereye being a cooldown, sef being a toggle, Tiger palm merged into jab. Not clunky and awkward anymore. Really loving it.

Shame about that artifact weapon being a damn fist.

[wunsh]

u have no idea how i hate the fact that artifact for ww are being a fuck fist dammm... fist are the worst weapon of the game they bring nothing but aids

[Notter]

I like the *Idea* of a fist weapon
but so far the actual representation in-game was bad, because when the fist is Sheathed, it's invisible, unlike other weapons.
I'm not sure what's the sheathing situation in Legion is though. if it's always visible, then it's fine IMO.

[Divinism]

When I was watching streamers play, it looked to me that the fists are permanently unsheathed, that's kinda awesome.

[Deleted]

They are permanently unsheathed yes but I was hoping that we got swords or a staff idk, absolute detest fist weapons.

[Xiaojin]

In it's current iteration WW looks interesting. Tornado Kicks affecting RSK instead of BoK means our new mastery will actually be meaningful. I just hope that Lv100 talent tier will be more about "choose whatever you like" instead of "choose A for single target and B for cleave/AoE". If you can't spam BoK without losing the mastery (which I like as an idea), Serenity will feel even worse than on Live. I just don't like gameplay in which I resource-cap and are only limited by (G)CDs.

I'm not so sure what to think about changing every skill to scale purely off AP instead of WeaponDPS (+AP). Makes weapon drops (or relics; whatever we slot into our artifact to upgrade its stats) less meaningful and pure item level across your gear more important. It's good in the sense that bad luck with drops in one slot doesn't affect your DPS as severely as on Live. But it also means that weapon/relic drops don't feel as awesome as they do now. I really can't decide whether I like that change or not. As an additional side-effect, this will make Way of the Monk somewhat redundant. Though I think Blizzard managed to balance DW vs. 2H really well for monks in the past, so from that point of view this change isn't really necessary IMHO.

[Babylonius]

Please use the Rant thread for ranting and complaints, this is for discussion, not about how much you hate X.

[Rollatorklm]

tbh im worried for pvp reasons
cons:
karma being down to 50% (atleast until we see pvp set bonuses?)

More defensives baked into one spell is not a good idea tbh (karma that heals), id much rather have a healing surge proc on every 2nd RSK or something (that makes it
instant and increases healing, similar to enha MS procs, or Ret pallys proc, or druids, basically every other hybrid )

more 3 chi spenders?, FoF was enough imo, the new 3 chi spender would be fine if the FoF talent to make it free was still there (semi hyped about that for pvp, but RIP :<)

also not a fan of expel harm being gone, it had multiple uses in pvp, chi when people where kiting to stop energy capping, or a decent selfheal when getting trained (atleast in mop)

Edit: also not a fan of being forced to pick between zen med and our wall (given that its a 1.5 min cd now, which is nice) wall is always the better option since everything breaks zen med, even stuff like hunter snake trap, or warlock pets etc.
Pros:

Its gonna be awesome to have a new mastery! no more 2k wasted stats

The new TeB is kinda okay, vs heavy cc comps like RMD its a buff, but vs cleave comps its a nerf, since when you have uptime you have a 10 stack for every single FoF and maybe even more often than that, we'll see how our dmg is outside of it

New touch of death, could be really useful in pvp aslong as the dmg is decent, and the debuff is not magic (please dont be magic), kinda gonna miss an execute tbh, but we'll see how it works out

Also a fan of RJW now being a 1 chi cost, makes up for the energy nerf post MoP might be useful in pvp again

[wunsh]

i was wondering if artifact weapon stand in your back when you are not in combat? OR they just stand in your hand 100% of the time ...having fist in your hand 100% of the time coul feel wierd... image riding mouth while having fist in your hand������

[Viradiance]

I feel like nobody's brought this up, but it looks like RJW doens't replace SCK anymore. In a non Tornado Kick world, it miiiiight have a place in the single target rotation at high chi levels as it does more raw damage per chi than a blackout kick and also would allow you to juggle our mastery (as a 1-chi dump). We'll also be able to maintain a steady SCK -> RJW aoe rotation without breaking our mastery, weaving in the occasional FOF/RSK for excess chi bleeding.

SEF toggle looks way, way smoother than I expcted. Can anybody test how it functions with two targets? I would be sorta disappointed to lose the 2-target cleave portion of the ability.

[Deleted]

First of all, thanks Babylonius for opening this thread,

There's a lot that needs to be addressed about WW in general despite it being alpha and so forth so we should probably primarily discuss the mechanics rather than numbers.

Monks looking so smooth and clean now. Tigereye being a cooldown, sef being a toggle, Tiger palm merged into jab. Not clunky and awkward anymore. Really loving it.

Based on the gameplay and stream I've seen so far SEF is still clunky as of build 20773? Though SEF has definitely become a lot more newbie-friendly. The AI seems odd/buggy and its difficult to see whether or not it actually chooses a relevant enemy to attack.

Can anybody test how it functions with two targets? I would be sorta disappointed to lose the 2-target cleave portion of the ability.

Viridiancity from what I saw from Venruki's stream if there are less than 3 targets one of the spirits just stands still.

While WW "looking smooth" may be true after removing TP & RSK debuffs + old mastery: TeB, the new mechanics of Mastery: Combo Strikes + Hit Combo may introduce some clunkiness back in albeit less punishing than RSK debuff. TeB having 2 charges matches other homogenized burst spells like Incarnation.

I have voiced my concerns regarding WW survival and the current builds does not address it.
FoF: being baseline stun-less (Leg Sweep = even more mandatory)
ToK: unless we receive a glyph to tweak it, is melee range only and at 50% like in WoD.
Fortifying Brew & Zen Meditation: removed/placed in same tier in PvP Talents. That brings our PvE survival below feral druids I suppose.
Healing Elixir: Less baseline interaction possibilities
Expel Harm & Chi Torpedo dmg/healing removal: Though marginal relevant in PvE it had an impact in PvP.
Nimble Brew: removed

Artifact Traits (so far) increases our survival on 3 fronts: x% dodge, Karma healing and Transcendence healing. Dodge is unreliable mitigation and from a fantasy standpoint it makes sense to have dodge but mechanically speaking it makes no sense for WW especially when majority of other classes received a flat %dmg reduction. Karma and Transcendence seems to appeal more to PvP than PvE imo.

Other topics I'd like us WW to emphasize on is the current build on damage skills and talents.
FoF: With Transfer the Power trait + the Crosswinds trait it seems like our majority of damage comes from FoF again. This might not be a problem in PvE but certainly is a problem in PvP. CC'ing FoF is easily done atm and with more empowerment it certainly becomes 1st priority when facing a WW. Heavy-handed Strikes is a must which is a real shame with SFB and Rushing Tiger Palm being on the same tier. Though I'm glad that they buffed RSK and added Tornado Kick trait into the mix. Add in an animation of the 2nd RSK hitting any targets behind them and I'm sold
Strike of the Skylord: Have no idea what they're planning with this and its expensive. Number wise it still hits like a wet noodle. I'm crossing fingers for receiving a reliable gap closer like Rushing Tiger Palm talent or at least an awesome animation like the new FoF and SDS.

Now regarding the baseline talents.
Eye of the Tiger: I'm quite skeptic about this one. It looks like the glyphed healing flameshock ability without the spread function.
Dizzying Kicks: Seems misplaced from PvP talents. We still have baseline disable and giving up RoP/Leg Sweep for a snare doesn't seem logical in PvE. As of matter of fact I don't see much usefulness about RoP in PvE either.
Chi Orbit: If this tier has a burst skill (Serenity) and an AoE skill (Spinning Dragon Strike) I wonder what their design direction is with Chi Orbit then? A passive consistent damage skill? Depending on the numbers it might work though seems a bit dull. I was hoping they baked our PvP set bonus into it so that each orb would give 5% dmg reduction and lose it when used.

So the final question is what do we WW need in order to be/remain competitive in the PvE and PvP stage? For PvP I'd like a shamanistic rage type of ability or something similar to predatory swiftness. Oh and increase our freaking hitbox.

[Hinalover]

Ok a few things. I ran some Proving Grounds just to get some ideas on the rotation

a) SEF DOES ATTACK your target if you have less than 3 targets. at 2 targets, 1 SEF will go to the second mob, the other will randomly select either the other mob or your mob to attack. Whether it does damage or not, I'm not sure. I need to run logs next time I run PG (probably later today)
....1) They will not attack mobs that are cced from what I can tell. One of the Gold levels, has 2 small healers. I CCed 1 healer while I dpsed the first healer and the SEF attacked the small rat things.

b) Strike of the Skylord is definitely hitting like wet noodles and needs work.

c) Our CURRENT damage is mediocre to low at this point, but the point is not the damage at this stage of the alpha/beta.
....1) Was having trouble in Gold since I didn't have the damage to kill the ghost bombs.
....2) gave up trying to clear Gold when I couldn't get past level 6 or 7 (Defender, healer, Insect, monkey, small ghost bomb, large ghost bomb)
....3) More times than not, I was hitting close to the time limit on Gold; not so much on Silver or Bronze

d) RJW is actually a PLAUSIBILITY in using for single target with the change to it being a chi spender.

I was CONSTANTLY switching SEF on and off. It FELT better to use but could still use some work. Currently you have to do an attack after summoning the SEF before they would go to their target. If they just went to their respected targets if in combat, it would help the situation.

[Nefarious Tea]

u have no idea how i hate the fact that artifact for ww are being a fuck fist dammm... fist are the worst weapon of the game they bring nothing but aids

That's because their design is always so eye-bleachingly terrible. Go farm Sunwell Plateau for the trash drop fist from there; best looking one in the game, imo.

[Deleted]

a) SEF DOES ATTACK your target if you have less than 3 targets. at 2 targets, 1 SEF will go to the second mob, the other will randomly select either the other mob or your mob to attack. Whether it does damage or not, I'm not sure. I need to run logs next time I run PG (probably later today)
....1) They will not attack mobs that are cced from what I can tell. One of the Gold levels, has 2 small healers. I CCed 1 healer while I dpsed the first healer and the SEF attacked the small rat things.

I stand corrected, Hinalover you're da BAWS. Thanks for updating us on the new WW mechanics. I wonder if RJW is going to carry over into the PvP talent Whirling Kicks.

[Imbalanced]

If you can't spam BoK without losing the mastery (which I like as an idea), Serenity will feel even worse than on Live. I just don't like gameplay in which I resource-cap and are only limited by (G)CDs.

I can understand you not liking your GCD limiting you most of the time instead of your energy but now you are like me at the end of last expansion when I was crying about loving being GCD capped and blizzard ruining that. At least you had other options.

But that's just purely opinion stuff. But you should re-read the new Serenity because when it's active it makes all your CDs cut in half which basically is increasing their damage by 50% in addition to the 30% dmg buff that you will get on that first cast. More realistically with the new Serenity you will be going RSK>FoF>SoS(If it gets buffed to you know, do damage)>RSK>BoK>Chi Wave/Burst>BoK, the effect will end and you will either TP or RSK again depending on banked Chi and how much of a global you lost to latency and will be prepping for another FoF. It really won't be anything like the current serenity in terms of what you use during the duration.

[Rixarius]

I'm so sad they're removing Nimble Brew.

[Deleted]

After seeing the monk being played extensively I'm seeing that because of combo strikes there's a bit of a long gap between the initial jab rising jab blackout jab fof jab hurricane strike. But I think that's where the artifact talent (forgot the name) is meant to be thrown in.

This might make rushing jade wind playable now because of there being some gaps at certain points of simply not using your chi or energy because of combo strikes.

Thoughts?

[jtveclipse]

This might make rushing jade wind playable now because of there being some gaps at certain points of simply not using your chi or energy because of combo strikes.

Thoughts?

Rjw and combo strike are in the same talent tier. Depending on the numbers sck could fill the void if ykur unable to use everything else.

[Deleted]

u have no idea how i hate the fact that artifact for ww are being a fuck fist dammm... fist are the worst weapon of the game they bring nothing but aids

You picked the wrong fucking class if you hate Fist weapons. Goddamn.
"Hey guys, I hape shapeshifting. I'll think I'll roll a Druid"