[MW] Gust of Mist - Let us Break Things

[Supliftz]

Our main healing source in Legion will be HoTs. I highly doubt Mastery that only effects 4 skills will be better than Haste.

To be honest I would love to see a little tweak in the mastery:

Direct healing spells cause a Gust of healing Mists to heal the target for X% over 4/6 seconds.

Healing over time spells cause a Gust of healing Mists to heal the target directly for X%.

This would totally fit our playstyle and it would make the harmony between direct healing and healing over time abilities better.

There's actually nothing wrong with the current mastery outside of a lack of numbers atm.

[Deleted]

Our main healing source will always be HoTs, no matter what stats you choose. And healing with Effuse? That spell is crap right now, even with the Mastery.

An instant healing is as likely to be overhealing as a healing over time effect - it's just depends on the group, available healers and the content. With my change I counter some of the obvious disadvantages of our mastery (Echo of Light is working quite good) and improve the harmony between direct heals and HoTs. Sure, it needs to be adjusted but the mastery right now is - a million times better than live - not very good.

We don't need a direct heal + another direct heal from mastery. If the target needs a huge heal we either heal it twice or use other heals than Effuse or Vivify.

HoT + direct heal from Mastery makes perfect sense.

Direct heal + direct heal from Mastery doesn't.

No, an instant direct heal is not as likely as a HoT to be overhealing. You're speaking nonsense quite frankly.

[Nyel]

No, an instant direct heal is not as likely as a HoT to be overhealing.

It is and it always has been - it depends on the situation. Overhealing of HoTs in WoD has been an issue because of the incredible strong absorb healers and not due to HoTs being worse than direct healing.

Nonsense is to generalize.

[Deleted]

It is and it always has been - it depends on the situation. Overhealing of HoTs in WoD has been an issue because of the incredible strong absorb healers and not due to HoTs being worse than direct healing.

Nonsense is to generalize.

Since this game started HoTs (and DoTs by extension) have always been abilities with incredibly high HPCT/DPCT that come with the caveat of doing the healing over an extended amount of time. In any healing environment, this will ALWAYS lead to overhealing because it's uncontrolled. That's just common sense, any logs from the alpha demonstrate this. ReM could possibly be an exception because of the new spread mechanic, and that probably would have been a better place to start arguing your point rather than saying something every player with an ounce of sense knows is wrong.

[Nyel]

Since this game started HoTs (and DoTs by extension) have always been abilities with incredibly high HPCT/DPCT that come with the caveat of doing the healing over an extended amount of time. In any healing environment, this will ALWAYS lead to overhealing because it's uncontrolled. That's just common sense, any logs from the alpha demonstrate this. ReM could possibly be an exception because of the new spread mechanic, and that probably would have been a better place to start arguing your point rather than saying something every player with an ounce of sense knows is wrong.

Not really sure what you wanna prove with your logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=15

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=8

I can give you dozens of logs from direct healing classes that have similar overhealing without any HoT.

I said to generalize is dumb. You can say that HoTs always cause more overhealing but that's just not true. It depends on the environment and on the healers.

[Deleted]

Not really sure what you wanna prove with your logs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=15

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&source=8

I can give you dozens of logs from direct healing classes that have similar overhealing without any HoT.

I said to generalize is dumb. You can say that HoTs always cause more overhealing but that's just not true. It depends on the environment and on the healers.

Are you serious? You're linking farm logs of 740 holy paladins without any HoTs to prove that direct heals will overheal more?

Look at the overheal on the logs of the mastery compared to a spell like Enveloping, it's always a considerable amount lower. The only situation imaginable where it wouldn't be is if the player started spamming effuse on full health targets, or picking their targets poorly.

[Natureseer]

The mastery isn't "strong" for Effuse, it's bonkers. Even at the shoddy level of tuning it's at on alpha, the mastery is looking very decent for ReM and Env - even with their artifact traits taken into account. If that's what qualifies for almost non existent to you even in terms of raw healing, without considering the value in making the healing almost guaranteed to be effective and upfront, then you need your head checked mate

Revival was used as an example case for showing the challenge in adapting this mastery to do what would be considered AE healing without breaking how it works. (Which is what this thread is for btw, not making crybaby statements like "mastery is almost non existent!!!") Sorry if you didn't get that dear. Again, HoTs proccing it would be broken unless it was a silly small chance - and if that was put in the game, congratulations you're now responsible for Gift of the Serpent 2.0. Use your head mate.

you think im crying about the mastery? the first thing i posted in this thread was a completely valid solution to what our mastery is missing. youre the one who only seems to think your idea is the correct one, which makes me wonder why you created a discussion on it in the first place.

[Nyel]

Are you serious? You're linking farm logs of 740 holy paladins...

And I already told you that I could give you dozens of logs from Paladins, Shamans, Priests and Monks were direct healing spells have 30-40% overhealing, like HoTs.

There is no reason to discuss this further, you've got your opinion, I've got mine - we shouldn't spam this thread any longer.

In Legion our main healing source are HoTs. You can say whatever you want but that's a fact when we look at our toolkit. And a Mastery that doesn't affect most of our skills will never be stronger than Haste, when 3/4 of our output comes via HoTs.

[Deleted]

you think im crying about the mastery? the first thing i posted in this thread was a completely valid solution to what our mastery is missing. youre the one who only seems to think your idea is the correct one, which makes me wonder why you created a discussion on it in the first place.

it affects enveloping mist and renewing mist in an almost non existent way

as it currently stands, the mastery is only good for effuse. it really sucks with every other spell.

Sorry, that reads an awful lot like crying to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It affects enveloping and renewing mist numerically almost the same way as crit or haste does - but has the value of being immediate and effective unlike the healing you would otherwise get from crit and haste. There is no reason for statements like that unless you either a) haven't taken the time to understand how the new mastery works or b) are simply too jaded by the current one to even begin to think the new one might not be entirely awful. Besides that point, the thread did say to work on the assumption that the numbers will be tuned.

As for your solution, I've explained to you why it was not a good one,

Again, HoTs proccing it would be broken unless it was a silly small chance - and if that was put in the game, congratulations you're now responsible for Gift of the Serpent 2.0. Use your head mate.

You can't balance a flat chance on each tick when you have spells that range from having 5 ticks up to 108. To make those numbers work and actually implement the 'solution' you've suggested, it would require individual spell scalars. So not only would implementing your suggestion be a thematic break in how the mastery works, it would have to be as shoddy as Gift of the Serpent's.

I also didn't really present any ideas to say is correct either. I gave a pretty clear conceptual boilerplate to help encourage ideas. I'll make it more clear by saying you should be trying to improve the mastery by altering the way abilities interact with it while keeping the 1 cast = 1 proc dynamic alive, not simply by tacking on a proc chance and calling it a day. If that confuses you HMU.

[Floopa]

currently mastery sucks but tuning could make it better

it's a good idea, i like the idea. it just sucks at the moment because it's not tuned well enough (ie: too weak).

can we stop discussion until 5+ monks have passed? xd

[Potta]

Adding extra chances for Gust to proc on ReM and Env is not a good solution. The Mastery is already good for these spells, it doesn't need any extra help there. If the Mastery needs improvements, it should be from the following "pool":

1. Applied to a larger selection of spells which already fit with its theme, like Gift of Sheilun and Zen Pulse, Life Cocoon (possibly x2) with Mists of Life.
2. Slight numbers buff to bring it in line with other stats
3. A cooldown that temporarily increases the effect of Mastery, much like Dark Soul.
4. A secondary, non healing effect causing cooldown reduction to a spell - for example, ReM or LC.

[Exquis]

currently mastery sucks but tuning could make it better

it's a good idea, i like the idea. it just sucks at the moment because it's not tuned well enough (ie: too weak).

can we stop discussion until 5+ monks have passed? xd

It's a good idea thats not working.
Increasing the numbers of it wont change a thing.

Ok so we've got an overbuffed mastery that lets us do fat heals with effuse and vivify (Well, on one of the targets). Great. What about the rest of our kit? ReM? Enveloping? EF ? As far as im concerned, your main goal with HOTS is to apply them before the damage is applied =/= the mastery is useless. And it doesnt work on EF.

So what do we do? Gear mastery and do nothing but spot heal? Or do we go back to avoiding mastery best we can?

The mastery is a mediocre idea thats really just not fit for our current legion spell kit whatsoever. It has next to no interaction with any talents either. (Or absolutely 0?)


i'll take it over our current mastery any day, but quite frankly the mastery is probably the biggest disappointment of MW legion so far. It has 0 synergy and makes 0 sense. I'd much rather have them rework it and emphasasize on what our role in a raid is-> raid healing. (Heals cleave for a %? Would actually fit the theme of weaving mists. But idc, anything that actually makes sense and doesnt leave out half of our kit.)

[Supliftz]

i'll take it over our current mastery any day, but quite frankly the mastery is probably the biggest disappointment of MW legion so far. It has 0 synergy and makes 0 sense. I'd much rather have them rework it and emphasasize on what our role in a raid is-> raid healing. (Heals cleave for a %? Would actually fit the theme of weaving mists. But idc, anything that actually makes sense and doesnt leave out half of our kit.)

You want an RNG/random mastery because this mastery doesn't effect EF?

really m8?

[Garg]

i'll take it over our current mastery any day, but quite frankly the mastery is probably the biggest disappointment of MW legion so far. It has 0 synergy and makes 0 sense. I'd much rather have them rework it and emphasasize on what our role in a raid is-> raid healing. (Heals cleave for a %? Would actually fit the theme of weaving mists. But idc, anything that actually makes sense and doesnt leave out half of our kit.)

The best part of Gust is that it's immediate and doesn't need other people for it to effective. If they manage to keep it in our control, I'm cool with it. The thing is, since we're so HoT heavy, what would our mastery have to do to compete with Crit and Haste?

Ramp up by a small % for each HoT tick? For each HoT out in the raid? Or just have it interact with all of our spells?

[Totaltotemic]

What bizarre world did I walk into where MW is considered a HoT healer? ReM is not even close to Renew or Rejuv spam in terms of playstyle and distribution of effective healing.

MW's core heals aside from ReM (which has always been driven to "press on CD" status by auxiliary effects and not its actual healing) have always been direct heals. It's a pretty fundamentally bad misunderstanding to think that MW in 5.0, 6.0, or 7.0 is even on the high end of the spectrum for healers whose primary method of healing is HoTs. It's like calling Ele Shamans a DoT spec because Flame Shock is important...

[Garg]

What bizarre world did I walk into where MW is considered a HoT healer?

Seems like I've stuck my foot in my mouth; I was just thinking that since we need ReM out to raid heal, that that's were MW could be considered more HoT focused, and now with SooM effectively becoming a filler HoT, as well as EF's HoT component, the Revival AWT HoT, the talents that buff our HoTs, it's easy for me to speak first and then think.

[Totaltotemic]

Seems like I've stuck my foot in my mouth; I was just thinking that since we need ReM out to raid heal, that that's were MW could be considered more HoT focused, and now with SooM effectively becoming a filler HoT, as well as EF's HoT component, the Revival AWT HoT, the talents that buff our HoTs, it's easy for me to speak first and then think.

It's not just you, I only said something because it's been mentioned a few times now.

To clear things up:

Concepts about "HoT healers" (Druids and Holy Priests) are about when you are using primarily HoTs in a similar way to how Disc uses PW:S on live, spamming it across the raid every GCD regardless of whatever else you're doing in anticipation of damage. This happens with HoTs longer than around 12 seconds because you can possibly get it on 5+ people and still have a majority of the healing remaining.

Spells like EF and EM cannot possibly be used this way because they are 6 second HoTs. You can only really use them once damage has started because they are too short to pre-cast and lose even a single tick of the HoT.

Revival's HoT is only 30% of the heal and is also 6 seconds, there's no possible world where you would do a full overheal Revival just so you have the HoT because you could just... well.. Revival later?

Soothing technically functions as a HoT, but in gameplay it's actually just the same as a channeled spell, which just don't really exist in healing outside of Penance because functionally they aren't really any different than spam-casting a 1.5 second heal.

Really the only way MW becomes a HoT-focused healer is if you go all-in on ReM, in which case things like the artifact proc become relevant. This kind of gameplay is the one where you do everything you can to counter raid-wide burst by using every available TFT on ReM, maybe take Crane's Grace, and just go with the gameplan of having 10+ ReMs out when the raid-wide ability hits. In that case, the mastery is utter garbage in terms of mechanics (and really any case where TFT ReM is a thing you'd probably do instead of TFT EM or Effuse).

___

I had completely forgotten what I was originally going to say, which is that if anything it's the Mists of Sheilun proc that's weird and not fitting the spec. I mean what's the point of a 10 second 20% buff to HoTs? It's not big enough to suddenly make you want to use EM or EF when it procs, and it's too short to be relevant for ReM. It's a really weird and kind of weak buff for a random proc, but then again random +healing procs are never very good.

I also totally forgot that Celestial Breath was also actually a HoT, but at a 5 second duration it's not really a HoT at all except by definition.

[Geodew]

It is and it always has been - it depends on the situation. Overhealing of HoTs in WoD has been an issue because of the incredible strong absorb healers and not due to HoTs being worse than direct healing.

Nonsense is to generalize.

Reglitch is right. Targeted direct heals with no HoT components have very low overheal. SooM and SM in Highmaul were seeing <5% overheal, the main reason for which was that mana in BRF and HFC made the game more spammy to the point where I'm over here on Mythic Archimonde spamming full overheal surgings just for chi.

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And I already told you that I could give you dozens of logs from Paladins, Shamans, Priests and Monks were direct healing spells have 30-40% overhealing, like HoTs.

There is no reason to discuss this further, you've got your opinion, I've got mine - we shouldn't spam this thread any longer.

In Legion our main healing source are HoTs. You can say whatever you want but that's a fact when we look at our toolkit. And a Mastery that doesn't affect most of our skills will never be stronger than Haste, when 3/4 of our output comes via HoTs.

Paladins will always have overheal because of how beacon works. That's not a fault of direct healing itself. For other healers, I couldn't tell you, but I'd bet a lot there are similar reasons. People don't cast Flash Heal on full health targets without a damn good reason. *ALL* Overheal is high because damage is spiky, but it's not gunna stay this way. Hopefully we'll never get tiers like this again.

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almost non existent way

Reglitch is right here, Mastery is slightly better than Crit for the spells it affects (and 4x better for Effuse) according to his numbers. The reason why it's not better than Crit is because the spells that proc Mastery only make up 65%-ish of our healing. "Slightly better than Crit" won't make up for that.

[Spotnick]

People don't cast Flash Heal on full health targets without a damn good reason

Well, to keep the mastery up is technically a good reason to cast it. So it overheals, but the shield is there.

OF course it'll be gone so this only relates to now.

Mindself of a disc priest.. Penance overheals by definition, you just hope it will crit to put divine aegis on the target on the last ticks.

[Geodew]

Well, to keep the mastery up is technically a good reason to cast it. So it overheals, but the shield is there.

OF course it'll be gone so this only relates to now.

Mindself of a disc priest.. Penance overheals by definition, you just hope it will crit to put divine aegis on the target on the last ticks.

Well there you go then. I said Flash Heal, not Flash of Light, though. Would HPriest/Disc really cast FH on someone at full health? IDK. But there's gotta be a good reason their overheal is so high, and it's definitely not because they can't use direct heals without going "oops I healed someone at full, silly me!"

TBH citing logs is a bad argument here anyway. If you think logically about casting direct heals or HoTs on someone at 50% health, it doesn't take a genius to guess which will do more overheal.

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You want an RNG/random mastery because this mastery doesn't effect EF?

really m8?

Cleave for a %, not % chance to cleave.

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What bizarre world did I walk into where MW is considered a HoT healer? ReM is not even close to Renew or Rejuv spam in terms of playstyle and distribution of effective healing.

MW's core heals aside from ReM (which has always been driven to "press on CD" status by auxiliary effects and not its actual healing) have always been direct heals. It's a pretty fundamentally bad misunderstanding to think that MW in 5.0, 6.0, or 7.0 is even on the high end of the spectrum for healers whose primary method of healing is HoTs. It's like calling Ele Shamans a DoT spec because Flame Shock is important...

You're right, but I think we got that reputation because, for awhile, MW played similarly to RDruid.