[RET] LEGION mobility issues aka: I catch people how again?

[Deleted]

Hello to all Champions of the Light & future Ashbringers here

Coming Legion, the devs think of us as per "Spec Fantasy" to be more melee centered and pruned many ranged spells away. I really appreciate this and thought to myself "FINALLY, finally we'll get something like Charge to close the distance to our targets". Well, so I THOUGHT....
Some of you may have already noticed that the mobility toolkit of Ret for Legion might at the moment be a bit...slim (esp. for PvP) to say the least?

So far we've got:

• Turalyon's Might - Only true gapcloser we get. Same line as ExS, 30 sec long cd, rather clunky to use with 3 button presses
• Divine Steed - 1 min cd for only 4 sec, easy to counter with snares
• Hand of Hindrance - Practically our only snare, not viable cuz with 70% will be dispelled asap and has too long cd
• Long Arm of the Law - PvP Talent Tree, so only for PvP. Same line as Law and Order (which is the one talent that makes HoH kinda viable)

That would sum it up.
If this stands as is, Rets will have a really hard time come close to melee range without help - even more so as in the past cuz we lost our range tools.

To counter this and gain the attention of the devs, a great *Thread* on the US Panel has been opened by Artarion@Draka to discuss and suggest possible changes. So far it sums up 22 pages as of now, a couple ones with REALLY great feedback (like from Areos *here*.
If you're yourself concerned about the viability of this spec, I'd love to see your support on this matter and let the Devs HEAR US ROAR (Lannisters, nudge nudge).

I myself want to contribute to that, and thought about a BASELINE gapclosing ability which wouldn't be a simple copy of an already existing one - but since I'm from germany and therefore play on the EU Servers I can't post it inside the Thread on the US Panels. I'd love to get your feedback and thoughts about it here. If you like the concept, be my guest and copy it into the Thread - it would be much appreciated!

_____________________________________________
Reach of Valor --------------------5-25 yd range
Instant ---------------------------20 sec cooldown
Requires Paladin (Retribution)
Requires level xx
Rally the Light around you and approach an enemy
or ally at high speed.

When targeting an enemy, Reach of Valor will
decrease their movement speed by 50% for 3 sec.

When targeting an ally, Reach of Valor will increase
their movement speed by 50% for 3 sec.

Surge of Light: ------------- Paladin - PvP xx Talent
Requires Paladin (Retribution)
Your Reach of Valor ability generates 1 Holy Power
_____________________________________________


Being mostly a great group supporter and melee dps in my (and the Spec Fantasy's) mind, I think this ability would fit Retribution perfectly.
Keep in mind that the snare is only intended to position the enemy for our attacks, not as a slow. For that Ret should (and must!) have a easily applicable, baseline snare like any other melee dps has. Also the movement speed buff to allies could be a great support for Flag Carriers in BGs, adding RBG support for Ret - or it can be used in PvE to help someone get away from AoE I think

"Surge of Light" could be an optional PvP talent, since the ability in itself is meant to be our baseline gapcloser I didn't want to overtune it - HP generation in PvE should be fine without the need to use a "charge" midfight (like warriors did a couple years ago). Also I'm not so sure about the cd and range values yet, could also be 15 sec cd and 30 yd range
What do you think about it?

I'm looking forward to receive positive criticism, suggestions and kickoff a nice discussion here
Also, thank you in advance if anyone is willing to post this on the Thread in the US panels.

Bring it on!

Edit:
Posting good (IMHO) suggestions into the first Post to "catalogue" them.
By no means I think ALL suggestions should be applied simultaneously. I do this for the gathering of good feedback and great suggestions from the Ret Community and make it easier view- and accessable.

Execution Sentence
A hammer slowly falls from the sky, causing x damage over 10 seconds, culminating in a final burst.

Reactivating this ability will cause the paladin to leap into the air above the target and slam down on the target, consuming the remaining damage and stunning the target for 1 second. 15 second Cooldown.

Consecration, on the other hand, could simply increase the movement speed of the Paladin and anyone standing in it by x%. Consecration functions more as an aura, IE it follows you around. Needs to be a significant movement increase, like 40% since it isn't instant movement.

I think that would make the first tier of abilities really compelling. Turalyon's has its place because you can go places where targets aren't, whereas Execution Sentence lets you immediately get where someone is already. Consecration is slightly more open end, as it just lets you run faster but you can't get anywhere instantly.

- Make Consecration follow you as with current Glyph of the Consecrator and increase the speed of all allies standing in Consecration by 40%.

- Make Law and Order baseline and make the PvP talent version make it a 15 seconds cooldown.

- Make Heart of the Crusader also increase run speed in addition to mounted speed.

I still think the message is beeing bogged down in requests for a charge when TM simply needs to be reworked first and foremost. Make baseline, lower cooldown, make it so only the Paladin and/or allies see the blade of light, detach the damage component if necessary. Also, make it a teleport as advertised, not a charge animation.
The only skill that can be reworked into a charge is that mount charge prot has that increases speed by 100%. But i prefer to have a useful TM first and foremost.

[BinderOfTheLight]

Interrupts and gap closing are basic melee tools. Every melee spec should have at least one ability for interrupting casts and one for gap closing baseline, including Retribution.

Expansions came and went before ret pallies received Rebuke as a reliable short CD interrupt. We've been denied a basic gap closer for years due to our semi ranged damage and defensive shields/self-heals, for "spec flavor" during a period of serious homogenation, "reasons", etc. Since Ret generally hasn't been a highly ranked pvp spec for at least two expansions and we're now losing most of our ranged nature, healing, and shields, you are 100% correct that there is simply no reason to deny us our other basic melee tool: a basic one button baseline instant gap closer for pve and pvp.

Your gap closing spell suggestion sounds fine to me, as long as it is equivalent to a charge or even a teleport. The benefit of a snare is fine, although I would even be happy with direct damage or DoT (or direct healing or a HoT if applied to an ally). Or a knockdown. Or a stun. Or the target is transformed into a holy unicorn that poops rainbow soft serve ice cream for Z seconds (standing in rainbow poo increases allied damage and healing by X for Y seconds). I almost don't care about the debuff as long as the gap closer is instant, straightforward to utilize (one button), and has a reasonable cool down.

I do not have access to alpha. Extra HoPo would be nice from your talented spell version, but I don't know if we will be starving or awash in HoPo in Legion. And I dont know what other talents would compete with it on that theoretical talent row. Too early for me to make a informed call about the talented version.

As an alternative to this spell, I would also be very happy with a copy of the Diablo Crusader's Falling Sword ability as a baseline instant one button gap closer. See the recent Falling Sword thread on this topic.

[ruiizu]

I think Turalyon's currently sounds pretty good, but I had a different idea. See, the current tree seems designed where you get 3 "DoT" abilities in the same row, but only one of them makes you move faster. I'm actually quite a fan of "3 button" movement, because you could have a variation with Execution Sentence. For instance:

Execution Sentence
A hammer slowly falls from the sky, causing x damage over 10 seconds, culminating in a final burst.

Reactivating this ability will cause the paladin to leap into the air above the target and slam down on the target, consuming the remaining damage and stunning the target for 1 second. 15 second Cooldown.

Consecration, on the other hand, could simply increase the movement speed of the Paladin and anyone standing in it by x%. Consecration functions more as an aura, IE it follows you around. Needs to be a significant movement increase, like 40% since it isn't instant movement.

I think that would make the first tier of abilities really compelling. Turalyon's has its place because you can go places where targets aren't, whereas Execution Sentence lets you immediately get where someone is already. Consecration is slightly more open end, as it just lets you run faster but you can't get anywhere instantly.

That's my take on the abilities as is. I don't actually want a "charge" as Ret. I'm much more a fan of leaps or flying into the air above targets, as it fits the whole "urgency" thing Retribution is built around.

[Firefall]

Your suggestion is to give another melee class Intercept?

Survival got charge, Rogues Heroic Leap, paladins Heroic Leap, and now Paladins Intercept. That sounds right, just homogenize everything in the class fantasy expansion.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem. Paladins and DKs have always been more tanky and less mobile. And you're not even less mobile. You've got Heroic Leap, and sprint, snare removal and Long Arm. If Paladins had every warrior mobility tool, you wouldn't play anything else. And warriors currently have 1 charge and 1 Heroic leap, that's it (unless they spec for the second charge of Charge). You've got more mobility on shorter cooldowns than most other classes in Legion right now, and I kinda hope some of it is scaled back because paladins aren't supposed to be the mobile melee class. That's for Warriors, Monks, and I guess DH in their own way now.

Edit: the above Consecration idea is fantastic. Gives a gap closer that still has drawbacks. I'd take that and ditch a current mobility tool.

[lunethzero]

Your suggestion is to give another melee class Intercept?

Survival got charge, Rogues Heroic Leap, paladins Heroic Leap, and now Paladins Intercept. That sounds right, just homogenize everything in the class fantasy expansion.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem. Paladins and DKs have always been more tanky and less mobile. And you're not even less mobile. You've got Heroic Leap, and sprint, snare removal and Long Arm. If Paladins had every warrior mobility tool, you wouldn't play anything else.

Edit: the above Consecration idea is fantastic. Gives a gap closer that still has drawbacks. I'd take that and ditch a current mobility tool.

Um, Ret Paladins are even squishier than rogues in pvp, the lack of defensives that it has on live are a complete joke. Totally agree with you on DK tho, they have a ton of defense and ways to damage targets from ranged as well on top of a gap closer, which completely makes ret obsolete.

- - - Updated - - -

Spell sounds good to me. As long as it isn't clunky and a band aid fix to a problem in the overall spec id go for it. Hopefully this expansion will finally give us the revamp we deserve. But at the moment I am extremely skeptical and have little faith in the people in charge of the class and balance design for ret.

[Firefall]

Um, Ret Paladins are even squishier than rogues in pvp, the lack of defensives that it has on live are a complete joke. Totally agree with you on DK tho, they have a ton of defense and ways to damage targets from ranged as well on top of a gap closer, which completely makes ret obsolete.

If you can really tell me that you're squishier than Rogues or Fury right now on Alpha with a straight face, you haven't kept up with changes for specs besides the one you play. And all Rogue specs and Warrior specs are currently less mobile than Paladins, too.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Branding Lothar of Charged Turalyon Might a "true" gap-closer is rich
Thanks for lighting up the mood

[lunethzero]

If you can really tell me that you're squishier than Rogues or Fury right now on Alpha with a straight face, you haven't kept up with changes for specs besides the one you play. And all Rogue specs and Warrior specs are currently less mobile than Paladins, too.

Yeah, you should really pay more attention read my post again because I stated that comment about live. There is little information to sweat about alpha at the moment.

[Deleted]

I just don't know why they ditched Speed of Light. It was a pretty good gapcloser, just the cooldown was pretty frigging long.

[ruiizu]

Branding Lothar of Charged Turalyon Might a "true" gap-closer is rich
Thanks for lighting up the mood

To be fair, it's actually much more versatile than a gap closer, barring the horribly glaring fact that it shares a talent choice with (for some unknown reason) damaging abilities.

Edit: Videos show Turalyon's triggers no gcd to "place" the location.

[Deleted]

This is what I'd do to increase Ret viability.

1. Bake Turalyon's Might into Execution Sentence, so that we can reactivate Execution Sentence once to charge that player, and removes GCD from placing Execution Sentence.

2. Make Consecration follow you as with current Glyph of the Consecrator and increase the speed of all allies standing in Consecration by 40%.

3. Give us Blessing of Negation on the first tier of talents.

3. Make Law and Order baseline and make the PvP talent version make it a 15 seconds cooldown.

4. Make Heart of the Crusader also increase run speed in addition to mounted speed.

5. Make Hand of Light into a debuff that grants 50% Leech to all players attacking the target.

6. Make Blaze of Light instant cast and cut the cooldown on Divine Steed in half.

8. Remove current Eye for an Eye and make it into a talent that reduces cooldown on Divine Shield and reflects all damage you take when you are affected by Divine Shield, and reflecting that damage grants 1 Holy Power.

9. Duplicate power of all Blessings.

[fabianos]

Maybe i am wrong but our mobility is defense. I played all classes on BETA and Pally ret is unstopabble. A lot of defense and heal mechanics. With more mobility they are going to be incredible.

I think ther goal is to make Pally and DK more tank and less mobility. Turalyon is strange. Great idea but small range.

[Halwyn]

This is what I'd do to increase Ret viability.

1. Bake Turalyon's Might into Execution Sentence, so that we can reactivate Execution Sentence once to charge that player, and removes GCD from placing Execution Sentence.

2. Make Consecration follow you as with current Glyph of the Consecrator and increase the speed of all allies standing in Consecration by 40%.

3. Give us Blessing of Negation on the first tier of talents.

3. Make Law and Order baseline and make the PvP talent version make it a 15 seconds cooldown.

4. Make Heart of the Crusader also increase run speed in addition to mounted speed.

5. Make Hand of Light into a debuff that grants 50% Leech to all players attacking the target.

6. Make Blaze of Light instant cast and cut the cooldown on Divine Steed in half.

8. Remove current Eye for an Eye and make it into a talent that reduces cooldown on Divine Shield and reflects all damage you take when you are affected by Divine Shield, and reflecting that damage grants 1 Holy Power.

9. Duplicate power of all Blessings.

10. Make Paladin Community more humble

[Morally Grey Storm]

Maybe i am wrong but our mobility is defense. I played all classes on BETA and Pally ret is unstopabble. A lot of defense and heal mechanics. With more mobility they are going to be incredible.

I think ther goal is to make Pally and DK more tank and less mobility. Turalyon is strange. Great idea but small range.

a lot of defense and heals.

[Deleted]

Your gap closing spell suggestion sounds fine to me, as long as it is equivalent to a charge or even a teleport. The benefit of a snare is fine, although I would even be happy with direct damage or DoT (or direct healing or a HoT if applied to an ally). Or a knockdown. Or a stun.

It's intended to do exactly this, with the possibility of being used for support aswell cuz I see our intended role as Melee DPS & Grp Support. With Legion, Enh Shamans get Feral Lunge which deals direct damage, Warriors have a stun attached to charge with Warbringer. I wanted to give Ret Paladins a baseline Gap Closer which can also be used to support allys and utilizes effects which aren't in use by other abilities right now.

I do not have access to alpha. Extra HoPo would be nice from your talented spell version, but I don't know if we will be starving or awash in HoPo in Legion. And I dont know what other talents would compete with it on that theoretical talent row. Too early for me to make a informed call about the talented version.

HoPo Generation SHOULD absolutely designed around granting us enough HoPo without the need of utilizing this talent in PvE, that's why I suggest it as a PvP talent for "my intended" baseline Gap Closer all along - you can't really utlilize a rotation in PvP like in PvE, and HoPo Generation can be scarce if you can't get near your target.
As for placement - If, and only IF Ret gets a baseline snare ability such as Hamstring - I'd suggest "Surge of Light" taking the place of Law and Order. HoH in this case would become more of a CC than our intended snare ability which would be fine cuz we got a means to slow a target for us to follow. That way, the Player can choose between HoPo Generation, slight movement increase or burst if dropped below 25% health.

I think Turalyon's currently sounds pretty good, but I had a different idea. See, the current tree seems designed where you get 3 "DoT" abilities in the same row, but only one of them makes you move faster. I'm actually quite a fan of "3 button" movement, because you could have a variation with Execution Sentence.

I never said Turalyon's Might isn't useful, my problem with it is it's a talent I MUST pick in order to be viable movement-wise and has too long of a cd to be a baseline gap closer. If' you'd let Warriors choose between Charge and Leap, they'd mostly take Charge over Leap because of it's cd and baseline functionality. Sure Turalyon's Might can be very versatile, esp in places like Arathi Basin SM or something the like - but it is a talent and not baseline and I'm pretty sure the devs won't ever make it baseline, at least in Legion.

Your suggestion is to give another melee class Intercept?

Survival got charge, Rogues Heroic Leap, paladins Heroic Leap, and now Paladins Intercept. That sounds right, just homogenize everything in the class fantasy expansion.

I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem. Paladins and DKs have always been more tanky and less mobile. And you're not even less mobile. You've got Heroic Leap, and sprint, snare removal and Long Arm. If Paladins had every warrior mobility tool, you wouldn't play anything else. And warriors currently have 1 charge and 1 Heroic leap, that's it (unless they spec for the second charge of Charge). You've got more mobility on shorter cooldowns than most other classes in Legion right now, and I kinda hope some of it is scaled back because paladins aren't supposed to be the mobile melee class. That's for Warriors, Monks, and I guess DH in their own way now.

Edit: the above Consecration idea is fantastic. Gives a gap closer that still has drawbacks. I'd take that and ditch a current mobility tool.

Oh, so your noble suggestion is to - for the great sake of "Anti-Homogenization" - to let Ret take the bullet because someone has to do it so not every melee class has the same ability lineup, is that it? Sure, why not - I mean most people who play Ret sure won't even bother cuz we're used to get handed the short stick everytime!

Seriously, I'm not for making all classes the same, but the last couple years (actually since start of WotlK) everytime Ret was roughly as viable as other classes they got the Nerfbat. Every. Single. Time. Can you actually explain to me how in any way Ret is "tanky" for you? Even on live we're more squishy once our bubble gets popped than anyone else, so much as that most people laugh if they see a Ret use Bubble.
Coming Legion, we lose Divine Protection, Emancipate and Word of Glory. Our only means to selfheal are Flash of Light (which is easily cancelled) and Hand of Light (but due to our crap mobility we won't be near the target ever). So, in which way are we tanky? Please tell me. Also please show me this "more mobility on a shorter cooldown than most other classes" since I obviously overlooked it. If so, I'm really sorry - but I doubt I did cuz I checked all news about most classes except monk cuz I'm not interested in them.

[RagnorZ]

Maybe i am wrong but our mobility is defense. I played all classes on BETA and Pally ret is unstopabble. A lot of defense and heal mechanics. With more mobility they are going to be incredible.

I think ther goal is to make Pally and DK more tank and less mobility. Turalyon is strange. Great idea but small range.

Explain how are paladin's more tanky in legon? I don't see enough that will change the arena meta of train paladin until they bubble, remove bubble or target switch for 6sec, then train again until dead.

[Deleted]

"i catch pl how again?"

reroll new-kid-on-the-block...
but letz be optimistic so: reroll new-kid-on-the-block.

[Super Kami Dende]

I dunno, I see the new Paladin so far as being a lot more able to stick to people than we've ever been.

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Explain how are paladin's more tanky in legon? I don't see enough that will change the arena meta of train paladin until they bubble, remove bubble or target switch for 6sec, then train again until dead.

They aren't affected by Forbearance, They have a better version of Flash of light(talented), They have a Sacred shield 60min Buff with Kings, Wisdom gives you a chance to heal for 5% of your HP when damaged, they have Hand of light which heals them for 3% of their Hp everytime their target takes damage and 40% hp if the target dies. Bubble no longer halves damage, Blessing of Protection no longer stops the ability to attack, 10% flat damage reduction from Artifact Weapon, Healing talents in PvP tree, Divine Storm Healing for much more than now AND Avenging Wrath increase healing by 50%.

Explained enough? Apart from Divine Protection and WoG spam, we have gain a MASSIVE amount of survivability.

That is how they are more tanky.

[Eapoe]

All I am taking from this thread is that a class who charges into people, picks the weakest one, blows every CD to kill them, uses another CD to run away and heal to full, and then repeat the whole process...is remaining the EXACT same next xpac just with different ability names and different effects, into a warrior. If you want a gap closer, pick a warrior, or go stealthy and sneak up on people. This is just a playstyle of a paladin. Currently if they know what they are doing, I have a hard time escaping one (as a hunter), and if they don't I can kite them for days. You say Turalyon's is your only true gap closer, sorry, but a 100% movement increase is huge against some classes, not to mention a 70% movement reduction is great on it's own. If you keep hand of freedom, I really don't see what the problem is. Just accept, that like all classes, you have your strengths and weaknesses and get over the weakness part of it and enjoy your strengths.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Must resist urge to destroy and bash ignorant fethheads.
You people. Argh.